different kinds of oak?

[hackberry jake]

One of my first jobs was working at a sawmill. I graded oak into three piles. Fas and #1 red oak in one pile. The #2 pile had white oak and red oak that didn't make #1 and the "3b" pile that was anything that was doddy or wasn't oak. I learned all the different species by bark and lumber appearance only. All I needed to know as far as oak was concerned was what was white and red oak. I always hear people talk about different species of oak like (take a deep breath) southern/northern red oak, swamp oak, post oak, willow oak, chestnut oak, shagbark oak, water oak, black oak, blackjack oak, chinkapin oak, bur oak, cherrybark oak, and I'm sure countless others I don't know. Is there certain qualities of all of these different oaks that I should be aware of? I know pin oak has more knots than average, and that's about it. I know to address all of them would be a lengthy reply, but I tried searching the archive and Google and didn't find an explanation I was happy with. Plus Google has nothing on the amount of knowledge you guys have here. Thanks in advance for information.

[Marc Thornton]

Sawtooth oak is another for you.  I know more about them when they are standing than what their wood qualities are like.  I look forward to the other responses. 

[beenthere]

For the most part, the lumber grades do not change between the oaks. However the lumber grade yield in % of FAS, #1C, etc. will usually vary between the species (as mentioned pin oaks have small pin knots so the grade yield likely is lower and may have fewer high grade boards). 

Then too, there are different grades of logs depending on the quality of the trees and how they grow in the woods.
Tree diameter when harvested will also have an effect on grade yield.

[paul case]

The  white oaks that i know of near me are white and post oak.
The reds are southern red, black, blackjack, and water oak which Ibelieve to be the same as river oak.
The post and white are very similar woods.
The black oaks will yeild poorer quality wood than the s red. Blackjack is a firewood species as far as I am concerned. Water oak lumber is softer than s red oak and is prone to having black doety knots.
PC

[Bibbyman]

As I understand it, once sawn into lumber there are just two oaks – white and red.

Around here the best grade for red oak comes from what I call true northern red oaks that grow in the forest.  Most other "red" oaks tend to grow in new growth areas that were once cleared or open fields then taken over by brush that eventually grows into trees large enough to make logs.  All are capable of making red oak lumber – the poorest in our area is what we call the water oak or pin oak.  Missouri Forestry Department puts out a booklet, "Trees of Missouri" where it lists all the oaks.  The last comment on pin oak is, "no commercial value".  And I agree.

Our best white oak is true white oak grown in the forest.  Post oak tends to grow in poor soil and in places that had been open fields at one time.  Post oak makes good fencing lumber and for any common use but has thousands of small knots so it tends to produce a lot of low grade lumber.  Our burr oak grows in wet areas, along streams and other low-land places.  It took makes great lumber for trailer decks and other farm uses but also has a lot of knots so tends to produce low grade lumber.

[hackberry jake]

I know a man that makes large live edge tables and he said blackjack was his favorite oak because of its character... you know what they say about one man's trash though. Are northern red oaks the ones with what looks like tight fitting bark and southern red oaks the ones with blocky bark?

[Larry]

What Paul said runs true to my experience.

In the red oak family the worst tree by far is blackjack.  Not worth sawing but does give BBQ a special flavor.  And yes you see it in craft show high dollar primitive furniture.  Next to the bottom is black oak tied with stinky shakey pin oak.  Than all the rest of the red oaks.  The growing site makes more difference than anything.  I see more southern red oak on your side of the mountain, I guess cause its drier and hotter.  I haven't much experience with it but I believe northern to have better color and grain.

On our old farm in north Missouri we had some of the best colored northern red oak I've ever seen.  Bright pink.  Most of it would have 3 rings too the inch.  Lot colder up there but fertile ground.  Here in Arkansas the northern red oak I've sawed doesn't have much color and will have 5 to 7 rings too the inch.  I figured it would be opposite with the longer growing season here.  I think the higher ring count looks better in furniture.

White oaks are all good...I look first for big juicy rays.  Seems most common in burr oaks.  The small knots in post oak don't bother me much.

[zopi]

You forgot the most common oak...notsweetgumoak...

[WDH]

The wood of the red oaks is indistinguishable by species, but some are knottier than others, just like people (especially those that don't know grits  ).

[cypresskayaksllc]

we have laurel oak, water oak and live oak.

[mikeb1079]

we have tons of burr oaks up here in madison.  from what i've seen they are more common than white oak, perhaps because the whites were more desirable and thus harvested while the burrs were left?  i've read that historically burr oaks were a transitional tree which often were found on the border between prairie and woodland habitats.  their big, thick bark is apparently very fire resisitant which helped them to survive on the edge of the prairie habitat.  burr oak is very similar to white oak in appearance but has more of a golden hue to my eye.  i have some super wormy burr oak lumber that i milled that had been standing dead for quite a while, not for everyone but i think it's cool.  

[thecfarm]

There's WDH on the sly. I know grits,that's why I keep away from them.  ;D  Blame it on him to turn this thread to so called food.
I think there is only 2 types of oak around here,red that grows around here and I think white is more coastal.

[Ron Wenrich]

Basically, there are only 2 species of oak from a lumber standpoint.  Red and white.  But, there are definite differences between the species that fall into the categories.  I know that pin oak is considered a red oak, but I cringe at the color characteristics of pin oak and wonder how they match them up when it comes to a panel line.  I usually can tell when I look at furniture.  You can tell the quality of furniture by the attention to detail they put into matching lumber in panels.  I can also tell the difference between red oak and black oak by the texture of the oak.  But, I've seen millions of bf of the lumber.

We don't have a lot of different red oak.  Ours are northern red, black, scarlet, and pin oak.  Our black oak is of the quality that it can be sold as veneer.  Tight markets can put a squeeze on them. 

Our white oaks are white oak and chestnut oak.  Our white oak is usually of pretty poor quality.  There are a lot of cat faces in the lumber.  It depends on markets whether they count or not.  Our chestnut oak is pretty good, depending on locale.  They won't take chestnut oak for veneer, though its been tried in the past. 

[WDH]

I don't think that chestnut oak has tyloses to extent that it can be used for wine or whiskey barrels.  Ron, do you know if that is the case?  It is a white oak with decidedly red oak bark  .

On my property the red oaks I have are southern red oak, black oak, water oak, willow oak, laurel oak, scarlet oak, blackjack oak, shumard oak, and cherrybark oak.  The white oaks I have are white oak, post oak, swamp chestnut oak, overcup oak, and durand oak.  Quite a diversity of oak here. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I've seen chestnut oak with a little bit of each.  Sometimes it has the tyloses and sometimes not.  Veneer and whiskey stave logs are two different animals, since there are different uses.   Veneer is for pretty. 

I remember one time where we cut 10/4 red oak that went to Spain.  The use was for lining wine vats.  They said the sediment would plug up the holes, but it had to be FAS lumber.  No cross grain was allowed.  I didn't buy the sediment angle, but they said it worked.

Whiskey kegs only use quartersawn true white oak.  I went through a stave mill a number of years ago.  They split the log in half, then down to quarters.  Then, they reduced the logs to 4/4 and separated the grades of lumber.  At the time, they were chipping anything that didn't make quartersawn.  I suggested to at least look at the flooring market.  They did that, but it was too late for their operation to survive. 

[Clark]

An interesting topic for sure!  I think I read that there were something like 67 recognized species of oak in America or North America.  I've also read that Asia has an equal number of maple species and only a handful of oaks, just the opposite of what we have.  Maybe it's our difference in trees that explains the whole east/west cultural clash?  Don't discount it, reality is stranger than fiction!  :D

we have tons of burr oaks up here in madison.  from what i've seen they are more common than white oak, perhaps because the whites were more desirable and thus harvested while the burrs were left?  i've read that historically burr oaks were a transitional tree which often were found on the border between prairie and woodland habitats.

I think you're right on for both reasons.  Madison is in that prairie/oak savanna area of southern WI and bur oak would better survive there than white oak.  I see the same thing in western MN, lots and lots of bur oak as you reach the historic edge of the prairie.  I too think the white oak was probably favored for lumber and that is one reason you don't see as much of it.  However, if you went west into the driftless area I would expect to see an equal number of not more white oak than bur but that is just a hunch.

Clark

[stavebuyer]

White oak and Chinkapin are generally the only White Oak species used in the cooperage industry. Ocassionally you can get by with Post Oak.

[caveman]

The only white oak in my immediate area is post oak.  The few that are here are small.  We have live oak that I have been told by some is a Carribean oak more than a white or red oak--the wood looks like red oak to me.  Then there are the laurel oak, water oak, turkey oak, a few blue jack oaks, and shumard oaks that have been planted along some streets.  Caveman

[LeeB]

I always kinda considered live oak to be a third group. It has caracteristics of both the other two

[DanG]

Several years ago, WDH started several threads about identifying specific Oak trees.  They are mainly about the standing trees, but there is some discussion of the lumber, too.  I dug them out and bumped them to the top of the "Tree and Plant ID" board.  There is some very entertaining and informative reading there.

[Jeff]

I Un-Bumped them.  They are easily searchable.  I've got after people in the past for going in and "bumping" topics. It is a practice that can become contagious with users and potentially annoying to others, especially if you are using the unread topics function to peruse the forum. I had an episode of bumping a few years ago and it seemed like every time I got on, I had to weed through a bunch of bumped topics in order to get to the unread material.  I love topics to come back to the top because someone adds new content or perspective or appreciation to the topic, but adding the word bump to bring it up is a pet peeve of mine.

A better way to handle it in this topic would be to simply post the links, then people that were interested could go read, and perhaps add a comment that would bring them to the top in a natural fashion.

[Jeff]

Identifying Scarlet Oak (Quercus coccinea)
   
Identifying Black Oak (Quercus velutina)
       
Identifying Water Oak (Quercus nigra)
       
Identifying Southern Red Oak (Quercus falcata)
   
Identifying Southern Red Oak (Quercus falcata)

[Kansas]

In my area there is virtually no true white oak, just bur and a few chickapins. At one time in the 70's, there was a mill that cut lumber for whiskey barrels around here out of bur oak, but I believe they only used it for the tops of the barrels. To me, soil type and maybe climate makes a big difference. The red and black oak starts east of me about 30 miles for the most part. The red oak can be excellent, the black oak has a darker appearance, with more knots.  However, I got some black oak out of Nebraska that was every bit as good as the red oak here. On occasion we have cut other oaks coming from yards or from the university. Cut a couple of beautiful scarlet oaks from K State. Once in awhile someone brings in a pin oak. Around here, its a dirty brown, full of knots, and smells even worse than cottonwood. There is a seam of blackjack oak along the bluffs of the Kansas river, along with a few reds, just west of me. We have had people bring some of both in. The red is reasonably okay, the blackjack is junk, and nearly  impossible to get a blade through straight. For whatever reason, that seam of oaks starts and stops in about a 7 mile strip.

True story here. There has been a lot of red oak in years past that got shipped out of state. It was sold as Appalachian red oak.

[Ron Wenrich]

Our quality can depend on aspect of the slope on mountains.  Those southern facing slopes may have good soil, but the sun dries the site out too quickly, so the quality slips.  You would thing that ridge tops would yield poor quality, but its often quite good.  Best quality comes on northeastern and northwestern facing slopes.  Deep soil and good moisture are often key.

Quite often the types of oak will differ from one side of the ridge to the other.  Quality will also get less as the slope becomes steeper due to the thinner soil and as you go up slope. 

[Magicman]

My Mississippi Trees book list 35 different Oak species, but all species are not necessarily found in all parts of the state.  For example, there is no Post Oak on my tree farm.  The soil is "too good".  The various Oak's habitat is limited to growing conditions, soil acidity, and of course, folks sticking acorns in their pockets.   ;D

Our top $$$ tree is the Cherrybark Oak.  It also grows the tallest and is the most disease free.