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circle mill power unit setup

Started by BOBWOOD, November 16, 2011, 08:07:58 PM

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BOBWOOD

Hi all...well it's winter and I'm in the process of planning out next summers projects. I originally purchased a 96 HP Continental engine with #3 bellhousing to use on my mill...but then I found an enclosed JD 4039 that had powered a compressor....which I think should be more economical....although I don't imagine its 66HP will be enough to run an edger and sawdust blower if I want to add them in the future. My mill is a small locally made RH farm type saw with a 36" blade....I plan to get a 48" as well as I hope to cut some larger white pine. Originally it was my grandfathers and we powered it off a 48HP IH utility farm tractor...I'm not sure the speed it actually ran but it wasn't very fast I'm sure. Anyway, I'd appreciate some advice on a PTO clutch/reducer/reverser setup. I got a quote on a twin disk 3.55 reduction anti engine rotation clutched input gearbox and it is $5000 new...I also found in my papers a Cotta gearbox available in 3 and a 3.2 reduction. I was thinking of driving the mill directly off the power unit...with a safety shaft...another option I thought of would be to use a T98-L2 reversing transmission like they used in Timberjack 230s if I can find one...it has a reduction of 3.09 in 2nd gear...I'm a bit unsure about the flywheel setback also...it has an extension spacer bracket to fit the flexplate drive...Anyway, I appreciate any advice you guys can give me. I'd like to gather all the parts this winter and be ready to re-assemble it all next summer. Eventually I think I'd like to rebuild the mill itself on a portable trailer...but for now I'd like to just get it running so I can cut some lumber. BOB

bandmiller2

Bob, your getting into specialized stuff,hard for most of us to comment on,unless your in the business.As you know mills designed to be tractor driven,turn the wrong way for a standard engine.Unless you can find used clutches and power transmission units, they are very costly.Some times you can turn the engine around,that will change direction.A truck clutch and standard transmission run in reverse gear will give you reduction and direction change. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

eastberkshirecustoms

In my travels with the ol' man, I remember seeing a circle mill powered with a tractor PTO and a truck rear end as a reverser. The owner had the pinion blocked, power input on one axle, reverse power on the other. I'm not sure how well it worked though...I think I was too young to give a hoot at the time.

Celeriac

As mentioned, what about turning your power unit end for end. Here's a crude sketch.



I think I'd buy a different mill before spending $5k for a clutch/reducer.

Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Sprucegum

How about mounting an hydraulic pump on your engine? Then you can go forward or reverse or any other direction you want, at any speed you want.

doghunter

first thing does the saw turn clockwise or counterclockwise viewed from the input end of the shaft ?

Mooseherder

I have some pictures of the way mine was set up but they aren't very detailed and they weren't taken by me.
The JD motor drives the pto and shaft runs series of other machines off the belts and pulleys along with the Hydraulic deck.  Hopefully you can get some idea from these photos.



and on the other side of the motor room with the tank that holds hydraulic fluid.






and now it's current state of slow progress. ::)




todd.crow

My sawmill is a Frick right hand sawmill with a 54" blade powered by a Caterpillar D318 74Hp diesel. I have the engine located behind the sawmill in a side building away from my sawing operation. I have a driveshaft running along the engine to the sawmill. I have a 2.5:1 pulley reduction on the back of the engine.



We also have a sawdust blower power by the engine.



We mounted a hydraulic pump to the from of the engine to use for the carriage feed, log turner and live deck.





We have bought a edger that we will install next year running a driveshaft also from the rear of the engine through the building to the edger.

Todd

bandmiller2

Nice setup you have there Todd.I'am a little dissoriented do you have the arbor running under the carriage like Belsaw.? Seems your saw is on the wrong side but it makes it easy to get around.Do you usally cut alone or with help.? Had a cat d-318 on my first mill, would just loaf along all day just above an idle,big oak logs would get its attention though. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

BOBWOOD

Thanks for all the great advice guys...and some great photos too!...I really like that bright yellow cat engine Todd...I see we are neighbours also...My mill is the same right hand configuation as the ones posted in all the photos so far...so clockwise rotation when viewing the input end...right now the husk is the original wood...however the track is now steel. Eventually I'd like to rebuild it all as a portable trailer unit like the "Canadian Farm Saw"...also I'd like to add a tandem carriage/extended track so I can saw long logs for use in log building construction....The farm tractor we did use to power it has the 90degree pulley off the rear PTO shaft...(I'm not sure of that gear ratio)...and of course the big long wide belt...adding hydraulics would be another good improvement but for now the old slipbelts work fine...I don't plan to saw with it full time but I want it to be set up so I can just go and push a button and start sawing...be it one special cut or a few MFBM...I guess I'll have to begin searching for some kind of clutched transmission...It would be nice to just pay the 5 grand and have a good gearbox that should last a long time...but it is a lot of cash...and I have so many other projects on the go...BOB

shelbycharger400

i have a pulley thats like todds, well the larger one.. its a 4 belt pulley,  it came off of a farm implement
pulleys are around!

todd.crow

It is hard to see but I have a driveshaft that runs under track and the husk and then a set of 14" pulleys that transfer the power up to the arbor. The pulleys are under the shield in the second picture.

Todd

BOBWOOD

I just added some photos...Here is the engine I plan to use to power my mill...showing the flywheel.Also a couple shots of the mill before I disassembled it....well kinda...You can see why I need to build a proper shed...

  

  

 

NMFP

I am planning on using a 300 ford engine to power mine.  I will need to turn the engine around like in the drawing because of rotation.  Does anyone know if an automatic transmission would work as well if I put it in 1st gear only? Also, does anyone has any suggestions as to another style of clutch compared to a Rockford or Twindisc?  The price of a rockford for a 300 ford is about 2200$.

whiskers

This  arrangement, a 300 cid  with a 3 speed standard transmission run in third gear works ok but wouldn't have held up to high production demands. We've use it without a governor just manually adjusting the throttle. The mill is right handed, "48 blade with 48 "1/4 bits. The drive pulley was adapted with "2 shaft. 

 
many irons in the fire.........

NMFP

Whiskers:
Do you shift the transmission into neutral for starting the engine and so on?  I have seen people do it both ways.  Also, for power, did the 300 supply the power you require for sawing? 
Thanks, NMFP

Al_Smith

FWIW a 300 Ford is probabley about as tough of a power unit made for a gasser .I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 90 HP more or less at 2400-2800 RPM .

They used them for just about every application under the sun and made millions of them  so parts are still easily obtained in addition to reversing units,over center clutchs and governer units .Short of running one out of oil I personally think it's nearly impossible to blow up a Ford 6 .

NMFP

Any ideas of where to locate a used twin disc or rockford clutch that could be adapted to them?  I was thinking about using either a 3speed or 4 speed transmission but the more I think about it, the more there is to go wrong.  Unfortunately, I live in an area thats rather difficult sometimes to locate things.  Most of the descent stuff has either gone for scrap or has been consumed by gas industry.  Thanks, NMFP

Al_Smith

If you look around long enough you might find an old Lindag or some other duck and chuck brush chipper on the cheap because it's just plain wore out .These things had an over center clutch with a reduction unit  belt drive .

More times than not the drum  bearings go out on them and because they aren't auto feed they sit around and either get torched or parted out .

You have to be somewhat of a "dumpster diver " to find this stuff but it's out there if you search for it .

sandhills

I realize location is pretty much everything here but there are a lot of irrigation power units around my area on auctions do to everyone going to electric.  A lot of them are diesel, but you can still find a lot of NG or LPG units, most have the twin disc clutches.  I want to buy an old 6600 JD combine myself, everything there, power unit, belts, pulleys, variable speed sheeves, hydraulic pumps......oh if only there were 48 hours in a day   :D. 

whiskers

Do you shift the transmission into neutral for starting the engine and so on?  I have seen people do it both ways.  Also, for power, did the 300 supply the power you require for sawing? 
Thanks, NMFP

Yes, a simple lever on the clutch linkage to engage after cranking then a cord to the sawyer position to shift the transmission to neutral quickly if needed. There's a coil kill switch there also. The power is good and like Al_Smith said the 300 is tough and reliable. This engine is from a 72 Ford van and was a use what you got on hand thing back in '99. It's replacement is to be a Mercedes OM352 diesel if I can ever get around to it.   
many irons in the fire.........

Al_Smith

I remember going to Colorado by crossing Kansas on I 70 which is one long ride let me tell you .The irrigation pumps were usually Ford 300's or 429 V8's depending on the area .Either one of those engines could be spotted a couple miles down the road at night time with the exhaust manifolds glowing red in the dark .They certainly didn't baby those engines if in service as pump engines .That was 7 and 24 doing that type work .

You keep good oil and a good cooling system those things were build to go the long haul .

bandmiller2

Al's right about the ford 300  six. My last two trucks had them,I overhauled one and was surprised how beefy the lower end is. I would say when ford engineered that engine they had a diesel adaption in mind,different head and bam you have a diesel.It would be much cheaper to put a standard truck clutch and transmission.Run a cable to an overcenter lever in the sawyers box insted of toggling in a rockford, release the cable and apply the clutch.Depending how much you use the mill you could run the trans. in reverse insted of turning the engine around. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

davey duck

Hello Bob,I seen a pto atachment that goes on the round bell housings and comes out at 540 or 1000 rpm .go to Lancaster Farming.com ,it was a picture ad.
David G.Fleming

Bandmill Bandit

You can pull some serious power out of the 300 IL 6 ford. Many thousands of them were used as the power unit in combines, swathers, balers and almost any thing else you cant think of that was used on a farm and in the bush.

Irrigation pumping still uses them as a preferred power unit when LP or Natural gas is the preferred fuel.  Gensets and compressors as well.

A friend of mine and I built 3 or 4 pumping units every winter for 8 or 9 years during the late 70s and inot the 80s.

we went to the industrial specs from ford for compressor engines and then beefed them from there to get around 350 to 375 HP put of them. Turbo-ed  inter-cooled and after-cooled with a 5 gallon oil pan and a water to water heat exchanger for cooling.  I think all of them are still running. I know 2 of the ones we built had over 12000 hours total pumping time on them last spring. Not sure if they had been rebuilt in that time but I know that they were pumping this summer and the went into service the spring of 79 turning Cornell double voluted pumps that can pump up to 2000GPM on half mile pivots.

I put one on a Silage bagging machine with a 4 speed transmission in between the engine and the belt pully (6 B V belts). Second gear was 1080 RPM out put running at 2100 Tach. It worked real well. All idid to that one was had the head opened up and put in bigger valves with an industial cam from ford that went in to the 995 NH combine. I believe that spec ed around 130 HP but I would have to check to be sure.


They just sit and bark all night. A very reliable engine. And inexpensive to keep running too.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

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