New home for M14 Foley belsaw

[bandmiller2]

Lambee, thats good news,most circular mill problems can be solved buy taking the time to study the problem, there a pretty simple device. Have a good new year my friend and keep em sharp. Frank C.

[apm]

Great news, Lambee. It looks like you've jumped in with both feet. File away in the back of your mind, after you get everything set and running the way you want it, if things change on you, 99% of the time it relates back to saw tooth maintenance. Nothing will correct for a dull saw. You'll learn the sound of sharp teeth soon enough.

Greg

[captain_crunch]

Sandy Claws brought me new camera just in time for pics of last of Insence cedar milling

here is pic of the shorted dogs I made for bigger logs
 

[eastberkshirecustoms]

Has anyone ever used a grain elevator(chain with cups or paddles) off of a grain combine for sawdust removal?
Levi

I don't have any pictures as it was years ago, but the old Lyons circular mill we had on the farm used exactly those for sawdust removal. There were two elevators. One under the blade that fed the second elevator, which dumped into a trailer. The were both scavenged from an old McCormick tag along combine. If I remember right, each elevator had a small auger on the end that fed the paddle shoot.

[Lambee10]

, if things change on you, 99% of the time it relates back to saw tooth maintenance. Nothing will correct for a dull saw. You'll learn the sound of sharp teeth soon enough.


OK- I think I need to learn more about sharpening the teeth.   :P Anyone have suggestions on this?  I am pretty sure I am not hearing the sound of Sharp Teeth! :D

[bandmiller2]

Lambee,the easiest thing is to compare your bits on the saw to a new one of the same type.A jockey electric sharpener is the cats pooper but costly.Myself I use a Dexter file guide,basically an aluminum handle with rollers to keep the file at the propper angle.The big problem with freehand filing is keeping the tooth straight across as folks have a tendancy to rock the file.I've never really mastered the art of swaging outher than repairing a damaged bit. By the time my bits should be swaged they have earned their keep and I just replace them. Frank C.

[apm]

Your best bet is to start with a new set of teeth to establish the saw works well. Simonds is about the only game in town, anymore, I think. You buy the teeth based on your saw. It'll be something like " 3-8/9 9/32"  That'll be "3" the style of tooth in your saw (could also be another number like 2 or 2-1/2, or a letter like B)  8/9 will be the gauge of your saw plate. All saw plates are tapered, thicker at the center, or "eye" and thinner on the rim. Your saw will probably be 8 gauge at the center, then 9 gauge at the rim, hence 8/9. The fractional number, 9/32" will be the kerf of the bit you choose. 9/32" is a good compromise, general purpose bit. There are different type of specialty bits, like standall, but you won't need anything like that to start. If you carefully clean your saw, near the eye, it'll often be marked as to the gauge and style. If not, Simonds website illustrates the different pocket styles, etc.

A circle saw is actually a system comprised of three components, the bits, the shanks and the plate. If the plate has problems, you or I can't do much about it. That's where the saw doc comes in. But if the plate is OK, commit your attention to the shanks and bits. The shanks are actually springs. Not only do they hold the bit tightly in place, they also apply a stretching action at the rim of the saw. It's important for all of the shanks to be as close to the same tension as possible. You don't normally want to run a mix of old and new shanks. The shank will also wear over time and become thinner. Ideally, the shank will be thicker than the plate of the saw, with good sharp edges in the gullet. One of the purposes of the shank is to contain the saw dust and carry it out of the kerf. If the shank is worn thin and the edges are rounded off, the sawdust will spill from the shank and fill the kerf. When that happens you create heat and a whole host of other problems. New bits will have the correct geometry for most situations. When you hear and feel the way they cut, you will know immediately when they need attention. In sharpening, your best bet is to slowly and carefully try to duplicate the original geometry while removing as little material as possible to return them to a sharp condition. Teeth are tapered from the front to the rear. As you sharpen them, the kerf actually becomes narrower. You should be able to get several sharpenings without worrying about the kerf thickness as long as you haven't damaged any teeth enough to have to remove a lot of material. Once sharpened back a certain distance, if you want to continue using them, you'll need a swage. A swage is simply a tool used to widen the cutting edge of the tooth to reestablish the proper kerf for clearance of the plate in the cut. Using a swage can be a little of black magic and definitely takes a lot of trial and error. A lot of guys replace the bits rather than swage them. If you choose to swage, getting every tooth as close to the same width as possible is the challenge. Some teeth will spread to one side or the other and appear to be the same width, but have in effect created a "set" that is not desirable.

Use new teeth initially, sharpen them by duplicating the original geometry with a file and stay away from dirty bark logs.

There are chrome bits available. They seem to last longer between sharpenings, but can't be sharpened with a file. You probably should stay away from them in the beginning. The "go to" mechanical sharpener is the Andrus. Meadows sawmills owns the rights to it, now. They are available used, on ebay, occassionaly. They are fairly foolproof and require no electricity, but you can get by with just a file after some practice.

A sharp saw is a pleasure, a dull saw is a pain.

Greg

[captain_crunch]

I did a little altering to my Andrus sharpner and now use a wore down 4 in air cutt off wheel and it will sharpen my chrome teeth

[Lambee10]

thanks Greg, Frank and CC.

Greg: you make a good point in starting with new and having a base line to what sharp should be.  Since this mill was in the woods unused for 15+ years I do not have the tool to remove the teeth. I will look at Simonds and see what I can get.
I apprieciate the time you took to explain the process and details of the blade.  It answered a lot of questions...but problably not all of them. :D

[apm]

Last I heard, Timberking still had some of the saw wrenches in stock, if it's the original saw supplied with the mill. I got mine from Payne saw. I'm sure Menominee would have them as well. You need to know what type saw you've got before you buy the wrench. The different styles use different wrenches. If you can post a picture of the teeth of the saw, someone on here can undoubtedly narrow it down for you.

Capt. I'd love to see a picture of the modifications made to your Andrus sharpener.

Greg

[captain_crunch]

Greg
Will try for pics tomorrow not difficult to do  mine had the laminated file pieces and chrome laughed at em so I first tryed a wore down 4 in grinder disc and it worked  but was too close to hub  but cutt off wheel is flat so that worked just needs to be worn down enough  not to hit ring poor people just have poor ways ;D ;D
Brian

[snowshoveler]

Now you just know I am going to copy this sharpener thing.
And Crunchy posts pics that I can copy.
Chris

[Lambee10]

Greg:

I was going to PM you but I figured someone else may be learning from this thread...

would you replace both the bit and shanks or can I reuse the shanks?  Yep- I am cheap. smiley_big_grin3

[apm]

You can reuse the shanks over & over again. For a hobby sawyer you may never wear out a set. That's assuming the shanks you're currently using are still effective. You may need to "rust reaper" them prior to trying to remove them if the saw has been sitting a long time. The wrench is pretty self evident, but the shank just twists out of the saw, bringing the tooth with it. Go ahead and completely remove the shank, this first time, so that you can clean and lubricate the pocket it goes in. When you are ready, mount a tooth and twist the shank back into place. It should start pretty easily and then get tighter the farther you twist it. The last 1/4" or so of travel is usually pretty snug. You may even need to tap the wrench with the heel of your hand to seat the tooth against the shoulder. Once installed, I've always taken the handle of the wrench and tapped the gullet of the shank straight down into it's socket, just for kicks. I don't know if it helps or not, but it makes me feel better!

Check your shank after installation to make sure it's in the center of the tooth. If not, it will need to be tapped to the appropriate side of the saw to center it. Again, the handle of the wrench will move it sideways if necessary. Check the shanks to make sure the gullet area is not badly rounded off, but has nice square edges. I've heard of guys filing them back square if they were worn, but I don't think I've ever tried that.

All of the shanks should go back in with approximately the same effort/tightness. if a couple are looser than the others you can lay them on an anvil and put a couple of heavy center punch marks on each side, symmetrical to each other, and that will tighten them up in the socket.

Tell us a little about your saw; what diameter? how many teeth? what style tooth?

Greg

[Lambee10]

I did not think the shanks could be worn out.  the Book from Standford Lunstrum states they may get thin over time but I cannot imagine they would with this mill.  I am sure he is talking a high capacity producing unit.

I have not stopped long enough to study the blade for numbers becasue it is dark when I leave the house and dark when I get home during the week.

However, I mentioned earlier in the thread I actually have the orignal owners manual and the sawblade parts list has the 40" diameter blade listed as using IP Tooth (style B- 8/9 gauge- 9/32 Kerf).  If I remember right it has 24 teeth.  Looks like the bits come in boxes of 100.  that should do me for a while- me thinks.

[apm]

When I bought my mill, new, in 1985 or 86, B.H. Payne was supplying the saws to Belsaw. That's what they told me, anyway. I didn't buy a saw with my mill at the time because I had a couple of saws already from a previous mill. Later, I bought one of the original Belsaw saws from a forum member, here. They're just a little different in that they don't have holes for drive pins and they have a low number of teeth to keep the power requirements low for the Belsaw mills. The center hole is also a little smaller than standard. I ran a Hoe 48" saw on mine for years but had to use a bushing on the mandrell to allow for the larger hole. I think 40" was standard from Belsaw. The one I bought is a "B" 8/9.

Greg

[dail_h]

lambee,,, thats the saw i'm running on my Belsaw,,40", 24 tooth , B8 / 9. my sawdoc repitched it so it bites a little better. is bout all my 3600 Ford can handel in poplar

[Lambee10]

Dail
What kind of HP do you figure you are getting out of the PTO for the 3600?

I hope sharp bits will help the huffin and puffin I got on a few bigger oaks.

[dail_h]

Hey lanbee,
  think the book calls for 45 /48 hp or somethin like that. but thats new ,, mine's a little tired. do run straight exasut when sawin ,, helps a little. pint of kerosene in each 5 gal diesel helps too

[captain_crunch]

Strange ??
We took a 50 in Hoe blade off my Belsaw and put a 46inX36 tooth Simons on it and don't remember a bushing

[bandmiller2]

Its tough to mill underpowered,the way Belsaws are set up they need a left turning engine.The best solution is to find a large diesel farm tractor with worn out tires,no three point,or something else to make it not desireable as a field tractor and leave it hooked to the mill. Frank C.

[captain_crunch]

At one time my belsaw was ran off a Ford 300 6 out of a lumber carrier which had a 4 speed with a Reverser (johnson bar) which gave you 4 reverses which is correct rotation for Belsaw opperation. Also industrial engines generally have a govnor

[dail_h]

Captin, the 48" that i got with the mill,has a larger center hole,, owner said he had bushin machined,, n sawed with the blade,, but we didnt find it with the mill parts,, or "on the nail" where was supposed to be,lol

[captain_crunch]

Know what you mean every time I find something like this  the key piece seems to have gotten lost ;D ;D