Advice for Sawing Stickers on an Off Site Pay Job

[YellowHammer]

When sawing offsite for pay I always feel I am doing the wrong thing, wasting time or money, with stickers. I could use some advice on them to help things go smoother.

Do you sticker stack wood on paying off site jobs? Or just dead stack?  Should I encourage or discourage it to the customer?  Cutting and stacking with stickers is slower and if I'm charging by the hour the customer sometimes feels I'm wasting time and wood cutting stickers, and if I get paid by the bd ft I'm slicing my profit boards up. How do I handle that?  Keep track of the bdft that has been converted to stickers?  Seems like dead stacking is best for production for both the customer and me, but then they will have to sticker later, and I would still have to cut stickers sometime during the day.

The stickers I cut on site are green, and might stain the wood.  Do I tell them that? Every time I do, they get anxious.  Should I just bring out a truckload of dry stickers and charge per each?  Should I cut a bunch of stickers at the beginning of the day, or should I just try to get them throughout the day? 
Do I cut a sticker log to 4 plus feet and bang a bunch of stickers out first thing, or just cut them out of a full length board and trim them to length with a circular or chain saw?  Between spraying for bugs, knocking off sawdust, and sticking I'm spending a good deal of time waiting on the customer and not actually sawing wood. 

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, and if so, tell me so I'll stop worrying about it.  I just don't have this off site sawing optimized yet, it's a different beast than sawing at my own place.

Thanks,
YellowHammer

[islandlogger]

I myself (I realize each business runs different) always dead stack at a off site mill location. I have a set rate for mill set up and then a set rate price per milled board foot, "no sticker stacking involved". However If/When the customer prefers stickered lumber I either charge extra for my off bearer to sticker during "down" time (sharpening time, fuel ups etc) and then I just use the edge cuts from 1x (I run a swing mill: Peterson 8" WPF) as stickers. Other times I tell them they either have to hire other labor for sticker stacking from my dead stack OR they can do it at their leisure at which point I thru the 1x in a pile for them to cut to length later for stickers. If they get anxious over using green slab wood trim for stickers I tell them I have cured squared off sticker stock that I can sell them. It's their choice at the end of the day. In my honest opinion as a sawyer: when you are in full flow and cutting with steam behind ya for production, the last thing you want to do is slow down from the extra efforts that go into stickering the product unless a different financial term is agreed upon for extra services....

Thats my 3 pence worth

Luck and be safe

islandlogger

[T Welsh]

My policy is to dead stack while custom sawing. I do not want to do it in the first place and I charge the same price if they need help sticker stacking. I also have a fact sheet that I fax or hand them before starting containing most asked questions.it keeps them busy while I am setting up.I am there to saw and I ask them to keep me sawing. the boards are there,s to load and stack. Tim

[Kansas]

Time is money. But customer service means customers. Long before you pull into a job, all these issues should be resolved. If someone wants you to do it all-bring dry stickers or cut green ones, sticker and stack, offbear, then do it. And charge for it. Its all part of the cutting process. Some people either can't or don't want to help. Make sure they understand that it costs money, either by more per board foot, or simply taking more hours to get the job done.

[DR Buck]

I always dead stack on site.   I also insist that the customers does as well because it makes it easier for me when I calculate total board foot cut.   After all I could over estimate if the wood is stickered stacked.  ;D  

If the customer needs/wants stickers I also set aside some of the lesser quality sap wood boards as I cut.  Then at the end of the day I calculate the board foot in them and resaw them into sitckers.   Stickers board foot gets charged the same as boards.

[Chuck White]

I saw mobile.

My standard policy is to dead-stack and the customer stickers on his time.

I did one saw-job this past summer and the customer wanted the lumber stickered.

I informed him that because I saw by the board foot that I would now have to add about 3 hours per day for stickering, at a rate of $45.00/hr.

Stickering while sawing uses a lot of time, that job took almost twice as long as it would have if we hadn't had to sticker it.

NOTE: When making stickers, I will usually saw out 1x12's and then take 12 of them and stand them up and cut them at 1.5 inches.  There will be the initial board footage charge for sawing the 1x12's, then another charge for making the cuts at 1.5 inches.  What it amounts to is charging twice for the 1x12's.

[Magicman]

I'm always portable and agree with both Kansas and DR_Buck.

It is very important to talk with the customer so there will be no surprises.  The customer needs stickers whether they are stacked then or later in the barn.  That is just part of the job.  You will easily get some when edging, usually enough.  I never, ever, charge for stickers.

I always have a lesser quality board stack that I will not scale and will give to the customer, no charge.  Boards with end wane, weak at a spike knot, pith split, etc.  Sure, I sawed them, but I simply do not scale lesser quality lumber.  Throw some of them back on the sawmill and make stickers.

(If you still do not have enough stickers, then you will need to make stickers from some of his scaled lumber.  I have not had to do this very many times.)

There are many small things that you can do to insure that your customer will be a repeat customer.  Point out that you sawed that unscaled lumber and did not charge him for it.   Satisfied customers are repeat customers, and they usually give you a tip that more than pays for the extra work/sawing that you did.

[woodmills1]

I tend to sticker every thing

my wood, customer wood,  and orders
seems sometimes they don't get here as soon as they said they wood

[Taylortractornut]

I ve gotten this beat for now when I get my mill.    At work I have to beury Kiln dried  trimmings  5 to 10 feet long from the cabinet shop at work.        THey are tapered but 2 sides are of common dimensions.      I plant to ha take a bundle with me on each  job.       I plan to trim them all at the same length.       

[beenthere]

"beury"

Is that bury or buy ?  May be either or not either? 

[Banjo picker]

He covers them with dirt... He brought me a trailer load this evening... I haven't even see them yet... didn't get home till nearly dark... Thanks Taylor maybe I'll get home early enough to get them off your trailer tomorrow...  Tim

[beenthere]

He covers them with dirt... ...............

??? ??? : :

[Brucer]

If the customer wants me to sticker his/her wood, I say "Yes I can. This is what it will cost and this is how long it will take." I get this settled before I start a job so there's no surprises.

Now that I'm set up in one place, I don't have to saw customers' logs very often. Instead I have a new issue to deal with. When a customer wants to load one of my stickered piles of lumber on his truck, he usually wants to take the lumber tarp along, plus the stickers, plus a couple of 4x4's to set the pile on. I always ask customers to return the tarp, stickers, and 4x4's when they've used the lumber, and they always assure me they will. Of course I only see about 1/4 of the material returned.

I recently started charging a deposit on all three. Tarps are $.50 a foot, stickers are $.25 each, and 4x4 is $2.00 per foot. I've not had one customer complain, and I've got back everything that's left the yard ;D. Should have done this a couple of years ago.

[wwsjr]

I never dead stack any lumber and do not charge for stickers.  I usually get my stickers when I run flitches on the edger. I set aside the edging, put a 3x3 on the edger, set the movable blade to 4 1/8" gives me 1 1/8" stickers, stack them and cut with chain saw. Occasionally the last board on mill from stressed log (Thick & Thin) will get cut into stickers. 15 to 20 minutes cutting gives me lots of stickers, I have only sawed one portable job in the last year, stickered 10,000 ft of pine. I have found that it does not take much time to sticker as I go. I make all my stacks either 36", (3 -12" wide, 6 - 6" wide) or 40" (4 - 10" or 5 - 8") Random width is stacked 40" wide. Band all with poly. My FEL homemade forks are 39" long, works good for 36 to 40 wide stacks. My helper measures the first row of stickers on 24" spacing, then keep in line on rows above.
I do not touch lumber by hand but one time afer it comes off the mill. With the humidity in my area, pine will almost mold overnight, stickering really helps to prevent this happening. Sometimes it may be a week before lumber is picked up, customer is happier when he sees sticks and banding. It makes it easier for me to load the stacks with FEL on his truck or trailer.

Scaling is easy, thickness X width of stack X length divided by 12 = total BF.

Neat, stickered, and banded stacks make happy customers who will be back with more logs later.

[metalspinner]

A couple of tips I've learned over the years as a customer.  Stay organized and stay busy!

There are plenty of stickers that just happen through out the sawing day.  Usually from the tapered edges of the log.  I keep these neatly set aside so they don't get lost in the other waste.  In fact, I made a sticker trailer last year and that's where they go right away. During the down time, I will trim them to length if needed.

Having a log cut up for stickers can be prudent.  Poplar is my favorate for this as it is very stable.  But my pile of lumber is stoopid big and more stickers are always needed.

I also keep a pile of what I consider bad lumber set aside neatly stacked that I later cut into stickers on the table saw if needed. Of course, this gets tallied at the end of the day to pay the sawyer, but it helps to be organized with it right away.

The worst thing you can do is have a huge pile of slabs and edgings just thrown and heaped in an intertwined mess.  It can take days to sort through and clean that up.

A sawyer is expensive to hire.  Why would somebody expect him to sticker stack lumber?  He should hire a kid from the neighborhood for a quarter the cost.

[Chris Burchfield]

Unless I'm using it for myself, putting it up green the next day, I sticker theirs or mine at no charge.  I use the sap wood and or tapers from the log when I don't get the board length I'm after.  Green one inch square for pine, oak or cedar.  Never had a problem with stain or mold.  I do have repeat customers and never heard a word relating to staining.  Some have made furniture in their shop or garage.  None are cabinet makers.  Some is used on barns or sheds.  One made a super nice long red oak table for out doors, under his patio cover.  I do no where near the sawing most folks on here do.

[Chuck White]

I usually get enough stickers just from edging the lumber, but sometimes the customer needs more.

It takes a lot if the stickering job is done correctly.

[Taylortractornut]

I meant bury lol.   Im using a new keyboard and   Im  typing all kinds of  mistakes till I get used to it.      The stickers ar  made from  the edgings off of Alder boards that   come from the cabinet shop  in a plant we landfill for.    They are uniform on 2 sides.      I got half a bundle in a dumpster the other day and I  pushed them to the side with the D5.   THen caught the tractor with the forks on it and  loaded a  few   scoops of them.   

Wwsjr If you cna use any ready made stickers Ill be glad to  get a bundle or 2 of them for you  or anyone else on the forum.

[Dan_Shade]

for you guys that sticker lumber, do you sticker every 18-24 inches? and make sure the base is flat?

[red oaks lumber]

how does stickering take longer? you still have to grab it off the mill, still have to carry to a pile ,still have to set it down. how is that  much differant than putting it on stickers? every row put down 5- 8 stickers and repeat the above steps why handle thwe wood any more than absoulte nessary.
there is no bandmill that cuts faster than labor can sticker, heck when we sawed with acircle mill sawing 1" doing 10,000bf/day we still stickered

[woodmills1]

temporary stickers I use 2 or 3 for 8 foot    3 for 10 to 12 and 4 for 16foot long

for my own or other long term 6 for 8 foot 7 for 10 etc

try for all oak stickers left from trimming 1x6 fence boards

am why ahead on sticker stock so even when the fence company forgets to bring them back I am well stocked

at 12 bucks a 1x6x16 the stickers and the nails are throw aways

[YellowHammer]

Wow, this is good stuff.  I've certainly experienced my share of sticker issues in the short time I've been sawing, and it sounds like everybody has to deal with it at some point.  I've had people complain when I didn't do it, I've had people complain when I did do it.  I've had people pull out tape measures to get the spacing adjusted to the 1/8 inch, I've had people complain the stickers weren't square, and even had folks say they didn't want me to spend time cutting stickers out of their wood, but still wanted their wood stickered.
I also like the idea of a fact sheet to hand to people as soon as I get onsite for them to read so they understand what is going on, and I can set the mill up while they are distracted.
YH

[Kansas]

for you guys that sticker lumber, do you sticker every 18-24 inches? and make sure the base is flat?

We sticker 1 inch about every 16 inches. We use 2x4 on edge between stacks also around 16 inch. We do ten layers per stack, so we can make them match up in the kiln, when we put in different lengths. On thicker we might go wider, but most of the time the guys are used to around the 16 inch spacing and just do it that way.

I would also suggest you fax, email, or mail that fact sheet before you ever start a job, and follow up with a phone call. The problem is if you already have taken the time to move to their site, and they don't like the fact sheet, you may have wasted time. I think the fact sheet is a really good idea. I just would have it in their hands before you ever hitched up the mill, and a clear understanding with them.

[Magicman]

"Stickers" could easily be added to your Saw Contract.  I do not have it in mine, but stickers have never been an issue between me and a customer.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,38693.0.html

[Chuck White]

how does stickering take longer? you still have to grab it off the mill, still have to carry to a pile ,still have to set it down. how is that  much differant than putting it on stickers? every row put down 5- 8 stickers and repeat the above steps why handle thwe wood any more than absoulte nessary.
there is no bandmill that cuts faster than labor can sticker, heck when we sawed with acircle mill sawing 1" doing 10,000bf/day we still stickered

Putting the boards on the stickers isn't the point being made, it's putting the stickers (evenly spaced) on the stack of boards and then putting another layer of boards on top of them, then repeat, repeat, etc.