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Planting pine - How far apart

Started by mjeselskis, November 12, 2011, 02:51:04 PM

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mjeselskis

Hello,
I've got about an acre of cleared land that isn't good for much due to sandy soil and being on the side of a hill that doesnt get enough sunlight to make it good for a garden. I'd like to plant it with some young white pine that I hope to harvest in 20, 30, 40 years. My question is, how far apart should I plant them so they grow well, and stay straight and tall? Do you have to plant them close and then thin? The ultimate goal is nice straight saw logs. Any tips for when I do plant them in the spring? Fertilizer, method, etc?
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

Ianab

QuoteDo you have to plant them close and then thin?

That is generally the best way to get good saw logs.

By planting close you get the canopy to close over early. This suppresses the lower branches on the trees, and also any weeds that might be competing with your crop trees. Once the canopy has closed in you can start thinning the trees to their final stocking. Here the stand would be thinned to waste when the trees were 8-10" dia, and the final crop trees left to mature. Other systems allow for production thinning where you harvest the trees in stages.

Starting at the final stocking means you end up with shorter, wider trees, with more branches on the most important first saw log. We also use lift pruning to improve the quality of the logs. This means removing all the lower branches from your trees, and just leaving the productive crown on top. Basically you take off all the lower branches up to maybe 16ft or more, in stages as the tree grows. First prune might be 6ft, and you take off the bottom 3ft. Then up to 6-9ft, and a final prune up to full height. This gives you a high quality butt log, even though it's fast grown it's pretty much all clear wood, apart from a small core of early juvenile wood that's also knotty. After that the thinning can start.

Exactly what will work for YOU depends on your trees, soil, climate etc. I notice that the US systems do not seem to use much intensive pruning, but on a small "hobby" size plantation like that it's perfectly practical.

Forgot to say, how far apart. We would be planting on maybe a 9ft x 12ft grid. This is about 800 stem / hectare. Final stocking would be about 250 trees / hectare.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mjeselskis

Thanks for the great answer. I do have a dumb question. Is the 9' x 12' the initial planting or after thinning? It seems sparse for the initial planting, but maybe not
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

Ianab

That would be the initial planting. You can go denser, but you will be thinning more and sooner. It looks a bit sparse when they are seedlings, buit once they reach about 6ft tall, they will almost be touching branches.

Final stocking would be more like around 18 ft apart.

The thinning isn't done to a strict grid, some trees naturally die, some grow double leaders, some grow as bananas etc. You get rid of those first, then look at the general stocking and see what else you need to take out.

Like I said, the exact regime you should use may be a bit different, but that's how it's done here.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mjeselskis

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I'll shoot for 9x12. I was initially thinking 8x8 so this will be less trees which means less money and work up front, which is always good.

Thanks again
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

ahlkey

I planted 4,000 White Pine is an open field with no other competition 4 years ago with a 6 X 6 spacing due to the Pine Weevil which is fairly common here.  The weevil attacks have started this year am I am glad I followed the advise from the State forestry department as follows:  "Density creates competition, it forces rapid height growth with minimal terminal diameter growth. Competition also forces laterals on weevil attacked trees to "straighten" quickly. In addition, it causes natural lower branch mortality which augments pruning for rust control. This practice may require pre-commercial thinning of plantations when trees reach 20-24 feet in height".

The other thing is that if you are looking for good sawlogs plan on a much longer time frame then you mentioned if you are going to plant White Pine. 

mjeselskis

Thanks ahlkey. I like the idea of white pine because it is native, the needle bed on the ground chokes out the undergrowth, and I already have a fair amount of it. I guess I underestimated the growth rate. Is there a better pine species as far as growth rate, and rate of return?
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

SwampDonkey

White pine should be planted at no more than 6x6', but we like them denser in New Brunswick, closer to 5 x 5' because if we thin pure w. pine we have to leave 1600 st/acre and not the typical 1000 st/acre for spruce. There will be a lot of mortality from blister rust and a lot of deformity from weevils if your in Maine. To help against the rust, keep pruning the lower limbs, leaving 1/3 to 1/2 crown:stem ratio until pole wood sized. The rust infects the needles in cool moist micro-climate and migrates to the stem. Can't stop it entirely because ribies (currant,gooseberry) is pretty much all through the woods. Old fields of w. pine usually look like cabbages around here. Plus everybody and their dog has planted cultivated currants and gooseberries around here, but we also have 3 wild species. (black,skunk,bristly) Must of the w pine around here is junk. It's best to interplant w. pine in taller stuff (not under overstory but stuff 5-6 feet taller) to give it shade against the weevils. They are a lot of work. Mine also have to contend with moose. Moose hate pine.  :-X >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: mjeselskis on November 12, 2011, 07:21:28 PM
Is there a better pine species as far as growth rate, and rate of return?

Red pine because they take the least effort. But they have to be grown to at least telephone pole sized. But not much bothers it. Hundreds of acres of old fields around here planted in red pine. Prune and thin as you go, every 20 years. How long you plan on living? ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mjeselskis

Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 12, 2011, 07:34:42 PM
Quote from: mjeselskis on November 12, 2011, 07:21:28 PM
Is there a better pine species as far as growth rate, and rate of return?

Red pine because they take the least effort. But they have to be grown to at least telephone pole sized. But not much bothers it. Hundreds of acres of old fields around here planted in red pine. Prune and thin as you go, every 20 years. How long you plan on living? ;D

That's a valid question. I'm 27 now and I really hope to live here til I die, so best guess 40-60 years if I'm lucky. My motivation is two fold - 1) to grow something that will have some value some day, and 2) to keep the area from being overtaken by useless birch and poplar saplings that spring up in every opening around here. There are probably 25 mature (12"+ dbh) red oak on that acre so they do provide some shade.

All of the pine that I do have is nice and healthy, but it wasnt planted artificially either.

Hmm, I thought I knew what I was going to do. Now I'm debating between species and density...
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

Clark

Some real good advice has been given to you already.  I think there might be several things I could clarify...maybe!

Ianab is working in a much more productive area, his initial spacing of ~400 trees per acre (TPA) is about 1/2 of what is normally recommended for red pine.  On his more productive land the fewer trees will have a closed canopy much sooner than our 800/acre will.  So we plant more to get the closed canopy quicker.

Planting pure white pine is like putting a buffet table out for deer.  You will have to plan on protecting them through some very intentional effort on your part.  This is one good reason to keep some red pine in the mix, deer don't bother them.

ahlkey - How did you keep the deer off your white pine?

I would strongly suggest planting your rows 8' apart.  You can decide on the spacing between trees within the row to reach your desired density.  If you switch to red pine I would suggest keeping the density at ~800 TPA.  The more white pine you mix in the more dense you will want to keep it.  I wouldn't recommend anything above 1200 TPA.

Back to the 8' between rows:  When you thin you can take one out of every 3-5 rows in the plantation.  Taking one row will give future harvests 16' between rows to operate in.  With the modern equipment this is more than enough.  Planting much thicker and having to go below 8' between rows will make things more difficult later.

Clark

EDIT: Just read your response.  Those oak in the clearing will cast shade that red pine will not handle nearly as well as the white pine.  The shade will also discourage the white pine weevil but will cost vertical growth in either species.
SAF Certified Forester

mjeselskis

Thanks Clark.
I can take most of the oak down, since most of them are only good for firewood anyway. I was thinking a sparse canopy may force the new trees to increase the vertical growth to gain light, but I guess I had that backwards.

I do have a strong deer population. Now I'm thinking a fairly even mix of red pine and white pine. I'll thin out the oak to give as much sun as possible to the new trees. I'll probably plant on an 8x8 grid, although to get 800 tpa it looks more like 8' rows, trees 6' apart in the rows.

2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

ahlkey

Clark - it has been awhile but I had a number of responses to your old threat "Fencing for Deer & White Pine" back in March 2008.   I actually planted 10 acres of mixed white pine & hardwoods (10,000 trees).  I put up a experimental fence with a control study of trees outside the enclosure and it has worked well for me in keeping the deer out.   

In any case, I agree that Red Pine would be ok but Deer have been known to hit Red Pine in Wisconsin as well. The only species that is considered 100% safe here as far as deer is White Spruce and while they are very slow growers they can be attractive on your property.  I have 4 acres of Red Pine in a plantation type area and that is not my favorite area as far as diversity but you can indeed plant both White Pine and Red alongside each other.

Ianab

Certainly take the advice of the local guys about tree spacing that suits YOUR conditions. Our climate and tree cultivars make for VERY fast growing plantations. You could expect to be harvesting 30+" logs in 25 years here.  A closer spacing should give a better result with slower growing trees as you get that canopy closed in sooner, and that is what encourages the straight tall growth. You will need to thin a few more trees to stop the stand stagnating, but this is not big a problem.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Clark

ahlkey - I had forgotten most of the information in that post. 

Mjeselskis, you should check it out there is more information there than I remember:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,30297.20.html

I'd definitely take the oak out if you want the growth on the pine.  The 6'x8' spacing is quite common in these parts for red pine and I'd say it's an excellent choice.  I wouldn't change much with the white pine mixed in except for bud capping the white pine or having some other way of protecting them.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

mjeselskis

The oak will make good firewood. No problem there.

One last question, What is bud capping? I havent heard that term before.
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

beenthere

mj
bud capping -
Maybe to keep the deer from eating the leader.  I protected my red oak by stapling small paper popcorn bags on the leader buds. Worked like a charm.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

shelbycharger400

personally i like the knots ect in the pine, mainly spruce.  clean clear grain pine is kinda borning...
but then again... knotty pine is nice for  furnature, not for construction, but that also goes across the board for all species.  why do they downgrade a sawlog for "character"  the cut wood you buy at the store is SAD! compared to what you saw personally or go to a sawer and buy.

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