A couple Belsaw Questions

snowshoveler · October 31, 2011, 07:14:40 PM

Hi folks I have been slowly getting my new to me belsaw set up. It's of course an oddball because its flat belt drive.
I have my Cat D4400 complete with 2 speed transmission hooked up to it.
So far things are working out pretty good.
It's got the typical wood frame that's 30 feet long and thats in pretty good shape.
Todays question is about the blade. It's 38 inches in diameter and has 26 teeth.
Here is where things get interesting. It' a single circle and the bits are marked No7.
The blade has CNC stamped near the collar area and 3487 there as well.
The blade is also very stiff and rigid and seems thicker than others i have seen.
I havent actually set a straight edge on it but it appears flat.
It's .185 thick in the center and the bits are .275 wide at the cutting edge.
I should also add that the bits look near new to me and the shanks still have paint on them and have sharp edges
in the gullet area.
My concern is that I have an odd blade that I can't purchase bits or shanks for.
perhaps I can,not sure but I havent seen these numbers before.
I would like to have a few spares because sooner or later we all hit something.
Most of these mills were set up with a larger blade and were PTO drive.
This little blade should run at a higher speed than the standard 540 I think.
The previous owner never set the mill up and was unsure how it was used.
I plan to start at 600 and go from there. I have a tachometer that reads from the shaft end.
If I am missing something please just give me a smack and tell me whats up.
I have a whack of nice red pine here just waiting to be sawn to build a roof over the mill.
Thanks for now Chris

bandmiller2 · October 31, 2011, 08:00:08 PM

Chris if you could show us a photo of the saw with closeup of the shanks and bits.Thats a little unusual for a saw most were 40" you should be able to cut a 16" board with the 38" saw.You can handle a larger log by slabbing and turning.I'am wondering if that blade was intended for a gang saw.Your wise to build a roof over the mill especially a wood framed ones.I'am sure some of the outhers here, will come along, and know more than I about your saw.Frank C.

Celeriac · October 31, 2011, 08:52:10 PM

I'll go out on a limb, my guess is that your saw 7 gauge, 3 pattern. An article I read mentioned that 3 pattern saws usually run 10-12 teeth less than diameter, 38-12=26. The 7 on the shank and the thickness make it likely 7 gauge. About 9/32" on the teeth.

As Frank said, it would be nice to see a picture.

snowshoveler · November 02, 2011, 06:36:49 PM

Okay i will attempt the picture thing.
I have tried this before and almost resulted in using crayons on the monitor.
Lucky the wife stopped me,I think.
They are posted somewhere in an album Bellsaw Mill Blade. (Hopefully)

Celeriac · November 02, 2011, 08:53:33 PM

Yes indeed, all you need to do is copy and paste the image code.

Voila!

bandmiller2 · November 02, 2011, 08:55:46 PM

Shoveler,there should be something stamped on the shanks to identify them. Frank C.

snowshoveler · November 03, 2011, 11:10:04 AM

The shanks have No7 stamped in them. The bits have nothing on them.
It looks like a regular saw blade to me, but Im not a sawyer yet.
I read every post here about bellsaws and have almost read all the circle mill
posts.
Regards Chris

snowshoveler · November 03, 2011, 04:52:20 PM

Well how about that...
I just picked up a 48 inch blade with the same style shanks.
The bits are a combination of worn out regular style and worn out winter bits.
This is good to me as I think the bits and shanks are the regular # 3 type.
So I shouldn't have an orphan blade.
I even managed to get the arbor shaft and bearings as well as some pulleys,the collars
and the biggest set of blade guides I have ever seen. The guide setup must weigh 60 or 70 lbs.
thanks again
Chris

Ron Wenrich · November 03, 2011, 05:10:44 PM

I'd go along with a #3. It has a 2 hole shank, and that slot. None of the B or F shanks have the slot or 2 holes.

snowshoveler · November 03, 2011, 05:40:12 PM

Thanks for the tip Ron...
Now i have to go bring the new to me 48 inch one inside and compare it
To the 38 inch one.

snowshoveler · November 03, 2011, 06:17:22 PM

Well I rolled the 48 inch blade in and had a look at it.
Exact same shanks with the 2 holes and the slit in it.
They do have a lot more wear in them the side edges are rounded over.
The bits are also just about done for.
The interesting part is this blade has 36 teeth.
Nova Scotia must be the home of oddball blades.
Good news is I should be able to purchase a box of bits and even a few shanks for the 38 inch blade.
I may eventually overhaul the 48 and use it as well.
Shouldnt take much power to run either one of them on my Bellsaw.
Thanks again
Chris

D._Frederick · November 03, 2011, 10:35:27 PM

snowshoveler,

You have about 28 tooth saw and you will need at least 75 hp engine to keep it running at a constant rpm.

dail_h · November 06, 2011, 09:26:38 PM

My 40" has 24 teeth,,and my 3600 Ford can keep it up to speed in 12 in poplar,,but it aint happy about it ,lol.Dont think u can have too much power on a mill,,at least i never ran one that did.

shelbycharger400 · November 06, 2011, 09:46:02 PM

that blade seems to be an agressive tooth set. what is the distance between the gullet and the tip of the tooth? this will be a big indication as to the tooth you have

i cant remember what my 40 inch blade is for teeth, but i know its a b or f.

the most agressive blade i seen was with xtra long carbides on it, the carbide tooth was 3/4 to 1 inch long ( lots of life to the tooth)

snowshoveler · November 07, 2011, 05:44:33 PM

The horsepower issue comes up many times in regards to circle mills.
In reading Lundstrums book ( online ) he states that you will need 3 to 5 horsepower
per tooth...in the cut. I think a lot of people miss the IN THE CUT part.
If I was running a full sized mill with a 48 or larger blade then I would be after considerably more power.
With my belsaw and a 38 blade I should be fine.
My little 50 horse D4400 cat has over 200 lbs of torque at a little over 1100 rpm.
Its also equipped with a 2 speed trans with 1 gear being direct and the other
about 2/3.
Pretty sure I won't be wanting for power.
These little Belsaw mills will keep us honest even though I only cut
red and white pine most times.
If all goes well I should be able to make a bit of sawdust this weekend.
regards Chris

captain_crunch · November 07, 2011, 10:35:09 PM

Here is a pic of mine 46 in wheel with 36 teeth powered by 45 hp Ford 3000

when things are correct I can cut (blind saw) this much and finish with power saw

bandmiller2 · November 08, 2011, 07:35:20 AM

Cappy Crunch,I always enjoy seeing pictures of your mill.I cut for years with a 44" saw made me nervous to blind saw,like kids and dogs best to keep an eye on them.On the real bigguns I d just make a deep enough slab cut to get a 6" face and turn after three or four slabs the log was managable.Really though if your not in a big hurry theirs very little you can't cut with a smaller saw. Big problem with smaller saws is the angle of the flat face of the bit when it cuts at the top of the log/cant,look at the angle of the top teeth and imagine it in a log.Its like taking a hand chisel and trying to push it down flat on a piece of wood.Frank C.

snowshoveler · November 08, 2011, 11:47:57 AM

After looking at Crunchy's pics ,I feel pretty good about using my 38 inch blade.
Always nice to see your pics Captain, thanks very much.
I learn a little bit every time I see one .
Regards Chris

captain_crunch · November 08, 2011, 12:57:29 PM

Granted blind sawing seems hairrie but seem to have more trouble with the little ones with sweep

. Camera had fatal accident (left on 955 cat loader track) only thing left to save was batteries :'( :'( Wish I had the pics for you guys was cutting Old Growth fir that my 42" bar on old 2100 husky would not reach thru. 3-34ft logs and sometimes 2-26 ft (when I got tree down without wreck) lots of whitespeck so they were not at tuff as they could have been

Ron Wenrich · November 08, 2011, 04:55:53 PM

I shotgun barrel those logs that are too big. No need to blind saw, and sure is a lot less work than dragging a saw out to make that cut. I use that method quite a big through the course of a day. I have loggers that don't like to trim logs up like they should.

snowshoveler · November 08, 2011, 05:19:05 PM

Captain...you take care of that 2100. Those are special saws and we won't ever see their like
again. The new stuff is heavy and ugly and only servicible in a shop.
And I know this because im the guy that works on em.
Without getting banned from the club,does anyone have a spare guide for a belsaw.
A good picture might even be a be good. I could fab one maybe.
regards Chris

snowshoveler · November 08, 2011, 05:43:25 PM

Almost forgot.
Captain I feel bad for your loss of the camera...but you have to fix
up a few pics of those big trees that are now logs...couldn't you use crayons or somthing
regards Chris

reride82 · November 08, 2011, 06:49:31 PM

Quote from: snowshoveler on November 08, 2011, 05:19:05 PM
Captain...you take care of that 2100. Those are special saws and we won't ever see their like
again. The new stuff is heavy and ugly and only servicible in a shop.
And I know this because im the guy that works on em.
Without getting banned from the club,does anyone have a spare guide for a belsaw.
A good picture might even be a be good. I could fab one maybe.
regards Chris

Chris,
I may have a spare guide in my pile of spare parts. Shoot me a pm if you're interested.

Levi

captain_crunch · November 08, 2011, 09:48:01 PM

I have an original saw guide fer Belsaw we built or own thing factory was not husky enough

Let me know ifn you want it

snowshoveler · November 09, 2011, 05:49:45 PM

Captain...

In the picture you have is that the original guide or the one you built.
It looks a lot like a big shackle thats mounted on a pin. If so and it works
I can easliy do that myself. I was trying to make it complicated I guess.
The books I have don't show any detail of the guide at all.
Thanks again Chris

captain_crunch · November 09, 2011, 11:47:49 PM

S_N
you pay shipping and I weil give origanal they are kinda light duty we made mine out of a refabbed shackle. Drawback of mine is you cant adjust it with saw running so you have to kinda read what saw does in cut and go from there. If board is thin on end check guide never have problem with adjustment on outside it however is on an adjustment screw

aardquark · November 12, 2011, 04:58:19 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on November 08, 2011, 04:55:53 PM
I shotgun barrel those logs that are too big. No need to blind saw...

Please help an ignorant newbie and tell me what "shotgun barrel" and "blind saw" means here.

snowshoveler · November 12, 2011, 05:27:58 PM

I will try to explain these terms...I learned them here.
Shotgunning ,I beleive means to cut the log into an octagon instead of a square or rectangle.
It takes a bit longer but allows a smaller saw to do the job.
Blind sawing is when the top of your blade dosen't come up through the log.
You either have to trim the log with a chainsaw or give the log a 1/8 turn like
shotgunning.
Captain Crunch has an eccellent picture of the blind sawing ,and I think he used a chainsaw to finish the cut.
These are pretty good ways to saw up a log that would otherwise not be able to be
processed on a mill.
I wouldn't want do it all the time but for a special log ,sure no problem.
Chris

bandmiller2 · November 12, 2011, 05:30:40 PM

Shotgun barrel,refers to making multiple shallow slab cuts to reduce the size of the log until the saw can cut its full diameter.Blind sawing is when the saw is burried in the log and you can't see the saw on top of the log.A burried saw has a real chance of hanging or binding and stoping in the log. Frank C.

aardquark · November 16, 2011, 01:45:37 PM

Thanks for the explanation, bandmiller2 and snowshoveler. Sometimes I have to do "blind sawing" on my radial arm saw when I'm trying to cut 6" material. It's a real pain to line up exactly for the second cut, especially if I'm cutting on the diagonal. And that is with flat stock. I can imagine the difficulty with a log.