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Notch depth and type on heavily leaning tree

Started by Jeff, October 21, 2011, 03:43:12 PM

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Jeff

My mother in law has a 4 stemmed maple in her back yard that she has asked Tammy, to ask me, to come take down 3 of the trunks.  I recall seeing the tree, but have not looked at it close in a couple years I guess. As I remember, it's pretty good sized. Anyhow, 3 of the stems have a pretty good lean to them and I am worried about a possible barber chair situation.

Is it better in this situation to have a deeper notch, so you can get thorough the back cut quicker, or is it better to have a shallow, but wide notch.  Its pretty obvious what way the trees are going to go when they go down. Tammy was there this past week in the wind, and she said the ground was moving all around the tree as the leaners were being pushed. She sent me a couple photos via her cell phone. The photos make the tree actually look smaller than I remember it.









Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Weekend_Sawyer


I'm not a pro so I will not reply with advice but will watch this thread with interest.

Jon
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

Ianab

Personally - Shallow notch, just enough to allow you to form a hinge, then bore cut it.


I wont repeat all the discussion that was in this thread but it's got diagrams and all.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,22582.0.html

Trying to "race" a conventional cut just leaves you open to a barberchair where the tree splits apart as it falls, and things get ugly real fast when that happens.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

T Welsh

Small directional notch, enough to get it in the area intended. and bore cut it and then release the back strap. keep a healthy strap, say about 3". they look like good leaner,s and are maple. if you try to do it with a regular felling cut it will start splitting and try to barber chair on you as you are cutting the back cut and that,s not fun. I,m with Ianab! Tim

snowstorm


Jeff

We may go over tomorrow. I've not committed to cutting it, as I don't know what else is in the vicinity. I'm not taking on anything that should involve an expert.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

bill m

So far all of these replies are right on. Open face notch just deep enough to get a hinge width of about 80% of the DBH. Then bore cut to form the hinge and cut to the back of the tree leaving a strap to hold it from falling till you are ready. Be aware that a heavy leaner will fall very fast when you cut the strap and you will not have a lot of time to make a safe retreat as it falls, so make sure there are no widow makers that could be dislodged as the tree starts to fall or any other hazards you can identify.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Ianab

Only real questions are "are you confident" doing the bore cutting? Or do you want to practise it on some less critical trees first?

And what's in the general vicinity is probably the most important. You don't have much option as to what direction it's going to fall. If there is something in the way, then it's probably going to have to come down in pieces.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

T Welsh

What Ianab said. words of wisdom, he must know from having played with bore cuts. but the most important thing is what is in its way of being damaged if all goes wrong :o Tim

Jeff

I've done some bore cutting, so I've got no reservations about that. I have been told there is a bird feeder in the way that can be moved, that there is some bushes that can be sacrificed, and that the tree tops will reach into the neighbors back yard, and they have no issue with that.  I need to look at it all for myself.   These trees will be firewood, so it's not like I am going to potentially mess up some logs.

My other reservation is, how close the 3 trunks are to each other, and how their individual tops are related.  A guy has to have room to get his saw in to make the cuts, but depending on how the tops are entwined, you might be forced to take one down before the other, and if that one happens to be the middle one, then things might get sticky.  Like I said, I'm not committing to anything other than looking it over to begin with.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

submarinesailor

I would consider putting a heavy strap around it just above the notch.  If course keeping it out of the way.

Bruce

madmari

Those trees look like classic bore cut canidates.
I like to use a shallow (1/4 tree diameter) facecut, very open (70 degrees) and leave a meaty back strap. The barberchairs seem to eminate from the tree center usually and the bore cut will have already severed the heart.  Accuracy counts- slow is fast in this case.
   Cut a bunch of those today, only red oak. It's a slick way to safely drop those trees.

Be safe 
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

John Mc

This kind of situation is exactly what a bore cut is most suited for. Barber chair tends to happen on a heavy front leaner because the tree starts to fall "too soon" -- that is before you have the hinge set to the thickness you want. By bore cutting, you get the hinge all set up before the tree goes. Then, when you are ready, cut the holding wood in back.

With a properly done bore cut, there will be no need for a strap wrapped around the trunk. No barber chair because the hinge is not thick enough to cause the trunk to split on the way down.

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

DonT

I agree with the advice given so far,strapping the tree with a ratchet strap is something i do regularily.Open face notch and bore cut looks like it would work,another option is the Coo"s Bay, but directional control is lost.Just from what I see in the pics you might get the top trying to roll out from the other stems,rolling the butt towards the cutter.If you want to measure where the top of the tree will land,cut a stick about 4ft long,hold it against your shoulder and measure to the end of your extended finger,grasp the stick at this point,hold the stick upright with your arm held straight out in front of you, now face the tree point your hand at the base of the tree,walk backwards until you can line up the top of the tree with the top of the stick.This is where the top of the tree will reach.A better explanation can be found in jeff Jepsons book,it is called the "stick trick" based on the Pathageran(sp) theory finding the length of an unknown side of a triangle,I think it is Asquared is equal to Bsquared is =C squared

LeeB

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Reddog

Shallow notch with a bore cut. Or Coo's bay.

WH_Conley

What is a "Coo's Bay"? I probably have seen it under a different name.
Bill

zopi

Yeah...bore cut..wide notch, and shallow..I will often make the bore cut at a downward angle to towards the hinge...that way if the trunk decides to split anyway I have a chance to get gone, and maybe still control the release of the tree...
My preference with these though, is to go up, either climbing or in the bicket and knock out as much weight from the tops as possible...right down to the trunk if I can arrange it..then just lop off the trunks...
Had a hackberry partially barberchair on me this week...no indications of stress in the tree...the little bugger just let go...hard enough to shut the saw down and send it back out of the backcut...nearly got me. Good thing it was fairly small...
Got Wood?
LT-15G GO chassis added.
WM sharpener and setter
And lots of junk.

Kevin

Quote from: WH_Conley on October 22, 2011, 08:11:55 AM
What is a "Coo's Bay"?

The Coos Bay is only used on heavy head leaners, it has no directional control.
You cut the wood away from both sides of the tree leaving a strip of wood down the center and inline with the fall.
Start cutting the strip from the back towards the front and the tree falls towards the lean.


Banjo picker

Is there a formula for how much wood to leave in the hinge, and do you get a lot of tear out from that....?  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Kevin

It would be the same as any other method, the bigger the tree the more hinge wood you would leave.
Both cuts would normally be a little over 1/3 into the side of the tree.
I would opt for the bore over the coos.
If your bar wasn't long enough to bore and one side was blocked by another tree you might opt for the coos but it would be a rare case for me to use it.

shelbycharger400

i do something similar to the coo's ,   on heavy leaners, i cut the normal felling notch shallow, the diagonal one first then the horizontal, sometimes comming back in again , heavy leaners can pinch you up even in notching. this is why i bring 2 to 3 saws with on close jobs, about 7 on long drives away from home.   then i shallow notch the sides at a slight diagonal to the front, basically cutting it so their is a 1/3 left on backside, then come and back cut it, it dosnt explode as bad .  some might find it odd, I do like to hear cracking as i turn and run, then i know its comming down, and hear  when it hits.

blow downs/ leaners...are a lot more trickey "fun"  shallow notching top and bottom of log prior to cut through. 

Jeff

Well, it's all a mute point now. I went and looked the situation over. I should have took pictures but did not.  The largest most heavily leaning stem was 23" DBH. The top of which was growing through the fork of a heavy limb on another very large maple tree closer to the house, which in all likelihood could roll the tree towards the house. The water well head is located very close to the path that the tree would probably fall, about twenty feet out from the tree.  The tree had 6 stems, not 4. Two of the other stems are leaning over top of a very nice cedar that they do not want harmed. One of the other stems that could be taken out easy enough, is locked in by two that can not.  This is a job for a climber. Not for me.  There is another cottonwood tree they would like down too that they did have an estimate on a year ago. $1200 for that tree. I figure that's probably cheap. Its a monster and its right next to the power line going into the garage, and real close to the garage.  I have a photo of that tree from a year ago.

Anyhow, I ain't doing it. :)



Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Reddog

Quote from: Kevin on October 22, 2011, 10:05:53 AM
it would be a rare case for me to use it.

Agreed, about the only time I use it is when the tree is too small to bore cut.

shelbycharger400

if its a definate P.T.A. best to walk away  :D

in the past, i block'd up a well with cement retaining wall blocks to shield it, never droped on it tho.

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