pine plantations in northern MN

[jueston]

Hello FF,
I've only recently joined but I have been reading the forum daily for months now, i love all things wood and would very much like to get some forest land and a mill someday. But I what I was wondering about specifically is tree plantations, I have read several books on the topic and all of them have focused on pine plantations in the southern united states, I live in MN and there is plenty of relatively cheap land up north near the international falls area. What I was wondering about is if it is possible to have a profitable tree plantation that far north or if the growth would be to slow to make it a worthwhile investment. I know that right now the lumber market[along with all other markets] is depressed, but that means it's a good time to plan for the recovery.
This is not a plan that I would be going ahead with right away either way, since the funds are a little low at the moment, but I have been mulling the idea over for a while, and wanted to know your opinions on it.

???

[beenthere]

jueston
Welcome to the forum.

Plantations in the south have a much shorter rotation time than those in the north. Many "plantations" of pine were put in during the 30's and some thinnings have been done over the years helping them along to sawlog sizes. Much of the plantation material goes into pulp wood.

So if you are 2 or 3, then when you get to be 80 the sawlogs might be about ready. So don't hesitate too long. Those numbers are a bit exagerated but not by much.

Look for established woodland to buy for managing the sawlog trees.

What is "cheap" land per acre in the Int'l falls area?

[Ianab]

Plantation Pine is 90% of the forestry in NZ, but that's because of the climate. You can get a good radiata pine to 20-30 dbh in maybe 25 years. Means it can pay off as an investment to YOU, not your grandchildren. A forest planted here in the 30s might be ready for it's third crop about now.

Planting a forest for a return in 75 years is a long time to have your cash tied up with little or no return until the final harvest. Just putting your money in the bank might have paid more return.

Like Beenthere suggests, it's probably better to look for mixed age forested land, even if it has been harvested 10--20 years ago, chances are it will be ready for another harvest in another 10-20. In the mean time you can do work to improve the quality of the forest, thinning unwanted trees etc, and you have the use of the land for recreation uses (hunting / camping / firewood harvest from the thinning etc)

Ian

[clww]

jueston-Welcome to the Forestry Forum!

[Ed_K]

Welcome Jueston,
I live in new england ma-vt bordor.I have some planted red pine that is 58yrs old.Average dbh is at 12"-14" 50-60' high. It wasn't thinned so grew slow.I'll probably pulp it.
Buy forest land, wished I had 30yrs ago.

[jueston]

What is "cheap" land per acre in the Int'l falls area?

you can get some land for as little as $500/acre or less if it has just been clearcut or has no legal access to it, i hang out on landsofminnesota.com looking at the forestland available and dreaming a lot... maybe that doesn't seem cheap to you all but that is some of the cheapest land available in mn.. maybe the answer is that i should move to a warmer climate....

thanks for all the welcomes and opinion, this is mostly what i thought, but it never hurts to ask.

[beenthere]

Take some time and visit the Forestry dept. at the U of M and talk with people there. They will be familiar with other individuals in the state system that will at least be interesting to talk with and discuss your interests. Will be good to get to know people who are in the various wood business's in the north and steer you toward (or away as the case may be) new ventures that could fit in with your goals and dreams. I planted 800 black walnut trees when I was much younger, but they will be for someone else to benefit from - not me. But it has been fun to help and watch them grow over the last 40 years. Another 50 years they may amount to something. ;)

[tyb525]

I'd buy some forested land and manage that - you'll be able to get a few harvests in your lifetime, heck you might even have to buy a mill and generate some income with that also ;)

[WDH]

With forestry, you have to have a long term perspective.  In the South, you can make about a 6% after tax return on growing timber if you pay less than $600/acre for the land.  However, it is almost impossible to buy land for that, and if you pay the going rate, then the timberland investment is probably not as good as your money in CD's or worse.  $500/acre in MN would be a pretty hefty price to pay for timberland if you are expecting an economic return that will compete with alternate uses of your money given the length of time that will be required to grow and market a crop. 

However, you only ever live once, so do what you like to do because life is short and you may as well pave your own way.  That is why I own timberland.  Because I like it, and to heck with the Economists.  A man has to do something, and it may as well be timberland and let somebody else live in the city and enjoy their lattes. 

[gunman63]

I would  think u would  make more money on northern minnesota land  planting hybrid poplar at $70 a acre for  12 to 15 years

[SwampDonkey]

As beenthere and others have stated, we plant trees pretty much for a generation or two down the road. There are millions of acres of plantations here in NB on private and public lands, some actually have a bit of a return 30-40 years out from thinnings, but the full rotation is 80 years in softwood. I have about 70 acres of plantations and thinnings on my land and I do plan on a thinning for semi or commercial purposes in 25-30 years. Balsam fir and aspen grows pretty fast here. $500/acre for a clearcut is still pretty high, it can be found for $50-200/acre here, that's if they want to sell. And the least paid is usually the least productive forest land.

[shelbycharger400]

hybrid popular is the way to go, years ago, about 15 years or so , a neighbor planted a single string of probably 100 or so, they are all around 18 to 20 in at the base, and are over 50 ft tall now, on the edge of a field.

[Side loader]

Well. Down here in the deep south pine plantations make up the majority of the rural landscape. Plantations are planted with about 605 or 691 TPA depending on spacing. 1 st thinning typically happens at age 12 to 15 depending on soil site index. You get around a load per acre (25+/- tons). Stumpage for pine p/w in my market ranges from 4 to 8 $/ton. 2nd thin about 5 to 8 years later depending on soils. Then you get into chip n saw which is typically a little over twice the stumpage of p/w.  Thinnings are generally cut to around a 70 Basel area and gives the trees That are left room to grow.  I generally clear cut around 25 to 30 years. Much shorter than the past. Shorter rotation wood I believe is the future with biomass. I would consult with a forestor in your area to get some guidence on what to plant and have him write you and management plan if you end up buying a tract  I'm with wdh "do what you like to do because life is short". Our southern yellow pine log market here is off by 50% from 3 or 4 years ago. It's not a bad return IF THE MARKET EVER COMES BACK!!

[SwampDonkey]

Back in the 1990's before the big boom a decade later, then the crash, we could only get $500-600/acre for stumpage. I think we are back to that now. Most of the hardwood and aspen is pulp, the only significant volumes of logs up here are in softwoods. And we know the softwood trade is pretty slim these days in NA, picked up in China though. But how long?

[WDH]

Our southern yellow pine log market here is off by 50% from 3 or 4 years ago. It's not a bad return IF THE MARKET EVER COMES BACK!!

Say it again, Brother!

[barbender]

You fellas that are recommending hybrid poplar, what market is there for it?

[red oaks lumber]

pine plantaions will work but , think christmas trees... shorter growth cycle, never a down market. cut your own or have a lot for sales, and now they are doing internet sales. just offering a differant view

[SwampDonkey]

There is definitely a down market in Christmas trees and price to as a result. My cousin grows Christmas trees for a living, but it's got it's ups and downs. He also does maple syrup. A lot of these activities have government handouts just as tree planting and thinning does.

[WDH]

It is hard to imagine a pay-out growing short cycle pulpwood, even hybrid poplar unless you pay nothing for the land.  The pulpwood stumpage prices are too low to support any significant investment.  That is why the bulk of people grow for sawlog rotations.  Pulpwood prices would have to double or triple to make a pulpwood rotations economically viable.  That is what the numbers have always said, and it is what they will continue to say, unless the price of land goes to a pittance or unless there is significant price increases for pulpwood, and neither is going to happen soon.

As a lifestyle choice, it is a great option.  As an economic option, a poor one unless you are betting on the come and the come comes.

[gunman63]

On the hybid poplar market, the company is paying $70 a acre per year, on a yearly basis for 12 to 15 years, they come in and plant it, and harvest it. u have no worries about  stumpage  price.

[WDH]

Wow, that is not bad.  If you received $70 per acre per year as a lease payment and you paid $10 per acre in taxes, and if you had no other ownership expenses, and if you could average 3% interest rate over the 15 year period, then the present value (PV) of that cash flow is $597 per acre.  You could afford to pay $597 per acre for bare land in that case. 

This calculation is very dependent on the interest rate, and that is the $64,000 question.  What will be the average interest rate that you could expect to receive, say if you invested the money in CD's, over the next 15 years?  Right now that rate is about 1%, but it has averaged a good bit more than that in the last 15 years?  What does the Crystal Ball say  ???.

[jueston]

On the hybid poplar market, the company is paying $70 a acre per year, on a yearly basis for 12 to 15 years, they come in and plant it, and harvest it. u have no worries about  stumpage  price.

this is very interesting to me, allthough it does take a certain amount of joy out of land ownership since i wouldn't be in charge of any of it... could you share the name of this company? or pm it to me?

[barbender]

What company? The only mill I have seen try to use it is Sartell, and I heard it didn't work very well for paper. That stuff is nothing but branches.

[SwampDonkey]

I have a hybrid poplar planted in 1982, if I recall, and it's now over 20" at DBH and 65 feet. They tried the hybrid poplar in Ontario and from what I herd it was a failure. The diseases like hypoxylin and target cankers killed off a lot of them. There is one woodlot owner that tried a few, I have not been to the site for a few years. He told me the deer and moose like poplar. I said I know. :D