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managing old native apple trees

Started by L. Wakefield, January 18, 2004, 09:06:51 AM

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L. Wakefield

   I wasn't sure where this fit best- I have a bunch of old, tall apple trees that have a good bit of peckerwood and insect problems- and they bear *sometimes* I have seen pix of all kinds of apples managed very radically- espaliered, hacked off short and pruned to have branches in reach- I want to hack some of these off shorter so I can reach the living growth- spray (if I *HAVE* to)- and get them into reasonable production. My husband says it won't work. They will either die or will sucker unmanageably. Anyone have any experience to share- good or bad? I am also working at interplanting new trees but I figure these old girls should have a chance at continued life- esp since ones that have tipped over have just continued growing sidways. They are tough!

   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Tom

I'm not much on apples, but we have pears that can be rejuvenated by pruning if they aren't blighted.  There are two things that I can offer in the way of non-expertise.

I have a book somewhere that discusses the age of apple trees and old home sites. "If you find an old apple, look uphill and you will find the old homestead behind a trail of limbs and stumps."  

It seems that Apples are fairly self sufficient and as they age and die they fall down and root.   Apples planted close to a home will be growing hundreds of yards away in a couple of hundred years.  If a tree is that persistent then I would think that anything you do to help it out would be appreciated.

The other thing has to do about the pruning shape.  It's so easy to prune from the outside and be concerned with shape.  Roundness is overbearing and we usually end up with a ball for a tree.   I've read several articles that suggests that a fruit tree (apple, pear, peach, etc.) be pruned from the inside out.  Not only should good 90 degree leaders be encouraged, but the inside of the tree cleaned out as well.  The final "shape" should be an upside-down umbrella.  The reasons given are that sunlight encourages blooming and the more open the center of the tree is, the more blooms can be initiated and the more fruit the stronger limbs will be able to hold.  If the tree is pruned round, then all the fruit is on the outside of the tree on little limbs and twigs and the inside of the tree will be barren.

I've seen how barren our citrus trees become on the inside and think they may have something there. Our citrus trees won't even have leaves except on the periphery.  The inside is dark and thick in little bare twigs. Perhaps the reason they aren't pruned as an upside umbrella is the labor it would take to do it.  Most of our citrus groves now are "mowed".  they use a mower like a bush-hog and cut the sides and top straight.  It opens up the rows for equipment but makes the tree look like a box and the row of trees look like a hedge. :P :)

Ron Scott

Laura,

Contact your local Extension Service, most states have good publications on renovating old, abandoned apple trees. I know that Michigan and Wisconsin does.
~Ron

beenthere

Several years ago my father bought a place that had 5 acres of old apple trees that had not been pruned at all. I followed my grandfathers advice ("cut everthing that grows straight up and straight down") and the first year, I removed about 50% of every tree, then went back in two years and removed another 50% from every tree (that doesn't total to 100%!). After that, cut out the suckers, while dormant, that grow vertical, leave (encourage) growth that is horizontal, and you will be amazed at what these old trees will turn into. Also, you can graft new varieties onto the old branches, utilizing the strength and vigor of the existing roots and trunk to support the growth of the new limbs.
Still, get the extension brochures and information for the details. If the trees are in real bad shape, it just takes a few years longer to get them into the shape that spraying and picking are more managable.  

PS My father wasn't impressed when he first saw what his 'son-with-a-chainsaw' did to his apple orchard 8), but after 5-6 years, he finally admitted it just 'might have been' the best way to take care of his trees. Then he couldn't keep up with the bumper crops of apples. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

Fertilizer may also be needed. Fertilize around the crown's drip edge.
~Ron

Minnesota_boy

Yup, removing the verticals will help the tree out a bunch.  Vertical branches don't grow many apples!  Also look out for vees.  The branches that form a steep vee will split as soon as they get a good crop of apples and tear a nasty gash down the trunk that will be real hard to heal.  One of my realtives had an orchard out in the state of Washington and he spent his winters making braces to force branches to grow straighter out.  He'd block any that grew too far upwards until they were horizontal, thus forcing the tree to make a stronger structure where the limb joined the tree so it could bear fruit without splitting down with the weight.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

L. Wakefield

   Thank you all for the prompt replies! I have started with one tree that was close to a little pond Mike scooped out last month. Now that I have the encouragement I will proceed. It was one of the things on my forestry plan, and I will be so happy if I can get these babies to produce. When they do have apples they are often a very crispy, winy taste- but sometimes with bugs too, and I want to fix that. They are definitely very old- so old varieties or wild scions of old varieties. I don't want to lose them.

   There had been an old orchard closer to the house and my brother cut all those trees about 20 years ago. (Didn't ask me first, of course..) In that area I tried clearing and making my first trial plantings of trees from upstate NY- St. Lawrence Nurseries. It's a battle with the mice. But I put in a tree or 2 every year if I can, along with grape vines and hops vines. Now as I work I see a lot of volunteers coming up. I can't tell if they are from apples that fell sometime- but it kind of looks that way where the seedlings come up in a bunch. I don't know how long rootstock could wait and then send something up. Everything I've seen fallen over and resprouting has seemed to be still alive above ground.

   If that method of pruning really works there are a few others closer in to the swamp that I REALLY want to release and prune- one red one and one golden one.    lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Minnesota_boy

If you don't have time to do them all properly, at least remove some of the verticles on the ones down by the swamp.  They may suprise you with only a little care.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Bro. Noble

One thing I remember from a horticulture ( I hope I don't get deleted again for using that term) class is that very old apple trees sometimes get to bearing everyother year or just peridiocally.  One of the reccomended cures to that situation is to prune heavily.  You might not to do all the desired pruning in one year.

As others recommended,  get info on correct pruning procedures as there are big differences in the correct way to prune different species of fruit trees.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Ed_K

 I crawl right up inside, start by removing all dead and diseased limbs, then I pick on all vertical limbs and suckers. Then any branch that grows inwards and the one that cross over each other, this will remove quite a bit of the inside. You are looking to open the inside to recieve air and sunlight. If I haven't cut 50% I then start removing outside branch's to make it pleasing to look at.
 Yr 2 cut sucker sprouts(water sprouts) as they will over take the main trunk and larger branches.
 Yr 3 cut heavy again to 50%, looking at main leaders. Its like training a bonsi tree. You can trim to make the branch go where you want.
 I do most of my pruning in dec, jan and feb, during the dormant cycle. Water sprouts during summer. An old timer once told me, the time to prune an apple is when you have some time  ;D. . Altho I believe during cold time will keep the bugs and disease out a little better.
 Make sure your cutters are sharp, cut close to the collar but not touching, make two cuts if its a heavy piece so as to not rip the bark into the collar. Hope this helps.
 Ed
Ed K

SwampDonkey

Hi all:

I have an old apple tree on my woodlot also. It was planted by some old homesteader because I remember the old house years ago. Father turned it into a horse hovel when he worked the woods there. The house is long gone now but this old apple tree is very thrifty. It bares fruit well every other year, I just keep the wild growth away from it so it gets full sun. The apples are good after a hard frost in late October and they cook up real fine. Nice and juicy and sweet, reminds me of the old yellow transparent variety, but is alot later to ripen. I have some cultivate dvarieties down by the house but they are nothing compared to the apples on this old tree. The apples it bare have hardly a blemish and no worms. The bear likes to eat the apples also. I've been watching him for 2 years now, but I see him mainly in spring and fall. I don't have many deer around, one or two occasionally.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

L. Wakefield

   I wish all mine were like that. There are some on the roads here that look like that. Big old trees just covered with apples. The sad thing is when no one picks them. I shouild check for their scions, altho I understand there may be great variety. But if they are old enough they might breed true.  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

SwampDonkey

On the Queen Charlotte Islands crab apple trees grew in the open swamps, they are native trees. mmmm mmmm said the black bear  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey



Well my favorite apple tree on my land has been uprooted by some unaware/unwary folks brushing back the road. They did a pretty good job brushing out the road, no one can complain there. But, did they have to shove their machine against my old apple tree that was planted there by the old homesteaders? The old house used to sit beside it. This had the nicest late apples I ever ate. Well, won't be getting no apples there anymore. It's a shame there are folks that go through life with disregard. I'll just say this....it has been my experience from knowing people with a reckless, push and shove attitudes who have short lived businesses. That will be my solace. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

How long ago did it happen?  Maybe you could graft some limbs onto other rootstock  ???  You could have lots of new ones  :)
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

Woodcarver

Here's a link to a fairly concise article describing pruning techniques, including renewal pruning:
           pruning article



Just an old dog learning new tricks.......Woodcarver

SwampDonkey

I haven't had success grafting apples and I think it's too late in the year. They usually work with dormant buds don't they?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sprucebunny

There is a little story in an Eric Sloan book about a "Seek-no-further" apple tree that when it falls over , it reroots it's self and just keeps growing. I've seen this happen in a couple places in Maine. I thought it was a charming story and always planned to name the piece of land I would own someday after that story.

Snow and ice killed the only apple tree on my land last winter and I'm no longer sure if I'm through seeking.

Sorry about your tree, SD.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

jon12345

SD, stranger things have happened,  aren't 'supposed' to transplant with much success durin the summer either. but I've done it. Granted it doesn't involve reconnecting of vascular tissue, but I think it would be worth a try.  Maybe you could just cut the stump (where there are some sprouts) and root ball off and plant it somewheres else  ???
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

low_48

All that talk about pruning fruit trees make this wood turner drool. There aren't any of you pruners close to Central IL are there? I would love to get some peach and apricot prunings. Those branches make fantastic pens. If you are close, I  sure would to like help. ;) If you aren't close, how about sending me an email and maybe we could get together on a price and shipping. Just trying to be helpful  :D

Thanks

SwampDonkey

I was wondering if a fellow could take the chain saw and slice off a corner of the stump to incorporate a good chunk of root. Maybe if you was careful to cut where there are some buds in the bark and a good portion of root, it may be possible to get it going if you planted it with lots of water and diluted miracle grow.  ??? I'll have to go take a good look at the situation. I looked at the tree yesterday and it hasn't wilted yet with all this wet weather.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

If it hasn't wilted yet, why dont ya finish cuttin off the roots, drag it somewheres else where it won't be bothered and stick it in a hole  ???  :)
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

 :D :D You coming up to help me 'drag it somewheres else where it won't be bothered and stick it in a hole'? :D :D

I went up this morning to inspect the situation, and unfortunately I can't salvage a piece of the stump. Most of the roots that have been stuck up out of the ground would dead and dried out by now. Oh well, time to lay the old gal to rest.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jon12345

Unfortunately I have previous engagements to attend to, apple does make good fireplace wood though  :)
A.A.S. in Forest Technology.....Ironworker

SwampDonkey

I was thinking it would make some decent firepot wood in the back yard too. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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