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water bars?

Started by woodtroll, September 12, 2011, 10:05:34 PM

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woodtroll

I was walking through a fuels project on private land today, and I am worried by a skid trail put in a draw. Now let me lay some ground work:
BMP's are voluntary in this state (which is fine, personal responsibility), its logging with chipping of the small stuff and most of the debris, merchantable stuff is whole tree skidded,(pine so skidded with branches on), log prices are very low with little margin for extra work, work site is steep, soils are very dry and sandy so traction is lost on the return trip, it is a down hill skid.
OK, the draw is a practical place to skid, slope is better, traction better then on the slope. The draw is just wide enough for the skidder.
Now for the question:
If a water bar is put it would not be able to redirect the water out of the draw. So, a water bar would just hold the water like a dam till it overflowed and washed out.
How would filter dams work? I am thinking, take slash and pile it in the draw where the water bars would be packed tight running across the draw. The branches and needles would catch soil and debris, and slow the water down. Maybe reducing soil loss or at least slowing it down till vegetation grows back in.

any thoughts

Bobus2003

Quote from: woodtroll on September 12, 2011, 10:05:34 PM
I am thinking, take slash and pile it in the draw where the water bars would be packed tight running across the draw. The branches and needles would catch soil and debris, and slow the water down. Maybe reducing soil loss or at least slowing it down till vegetation grows back in.

This is what do on all our skid trails.. the steeper the trail, the more slash we spread out on the trail. We try too stay out of the Bottoms of the washes, and try to skid on the ridge tops, or across the slope.. if its incredibly steep we use the FMC to skid and spread Slash if disturbed too much.

WDH

BMP's are voluntary, but putting sediment in a stream is a mandatory clean water act violation and the sky will fall down on you.  I know that you know this, but many think that "voluntary" means that you do not have to do it.  That is great as long as you get lucky and the result that you are trying to avoid does not occur.  Skidding in a draw would not be allowed here if the sides were steep as they channel run-off.  In my company's standards, no timber could be cut in a narrow draw or ditch if it was deep and carried water.  I agree with your assessment and solution.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

woodtroll

The draw was clear of trees, likely used as a cat skid trail back in the 40's. that was the last entry. 
The soil would have to go along way to reach the dry creek bed (runs water 2-5 days a year). (As an aside, soil some times fills the holes in the creeks allowing them to flow farther). Not that that make it okay, more of an anomaly.

Bobus, your just running on a layer of slash,right? this would need to be piles about the size of a hand pile. We can't leave a lot of slash on the ground with it being a fuel treatment.

Bobus2003

Yeah, we leave more of a Broken Layer of slash.. Generally a small Top or a small bundle of limbs every 50 Feet or so that then gets brushed down

BaldBob

While I do not condone skidding down a draw, for the reasons already stated.  Slash placed in the draw can greatly reduce any resource damage that might result. However, in order for this solution to work, the piles must be properly installed. That means that the piles must be held securely in place ( sturdy stakes on the downhill side) and there needs to be a pile placed for every 2-3 ft drop in elevation or no less than one  than every 150 ft.

SwampDonkey

Of course your in much different climate than on the Pacific north coast. But, just a for instance, debris loading in deep V shaped gullies was a recipe for slope failures if there was an active creek in the gully and fan below, sometimes resulting in whole sections of hillside racing to the bottom. If not, than at least gully sidewall failures. This was because of extreme rainfall compared to where your at.

A typical gully system.



[from BC Gully Assessment Procedure]
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

BaldBob

I doubt that anyone was ground skidding down a  deep v shaped draw with slopes in excess of 50% (as shown in the P&P). However, even here in the soggy PNW, a series of sediment traps (whether consisting of anchored slash or filter cloth) can be quite beneficial in reducing erosion in shallow draws with slopes of less than 25% (not deep v shaped gullies) .
The feature shown in your diagram is typical of an unstable slope exhibiting a rotational slope failure. That further failure of the slope might occur if the stream in the gully were dammed in any way, would be quite expected.

SwampDonkey

The diagram was just for the purpose of showing a gully system. No skidder would be on 50% slope for sure, but yarders from above roads pulling wood sometimes not free of the ground was common in the 1980's and many blocks you could see gouges from the wood pulled up to the road. These made erosion channels on steep hills and the scars on some blocks can still be found. ;) That being said I have seen skidders pull straight lined up 35% slope here in NB. This was with a big stream being at the bottom and the hill being of course river gravel from eons ago. The skidders didn't winch it up, they pulled the full load. Now imagine that situation. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

In Wyoming, I don't think it's called a draw unless it's v shaped ::)
Too many irons in the fire

woodtroll

 


This is a picture of the better of the two draws being used. Slope is 35-40%, soils are loose. The cut banks are 3'-4' deep.
The other draw is just as steep with some rock outcrops smoothed out with dirt.
All the slash will be chipped, or pulled out, I am thinking of placing in three piles (with most of the slash running cross slope).

I did not know about the V shape to be a draw definition, that could solve all the problems.

And some times 50% slope is still done with a skidder.
There gets to be a cost/practical thing or just don't do it at all thing, real quick on a lot of our ground.

BaldBob

From the picture it appears that although the side slopes are 35%, the draw appears to be about a 15% slope. Under those conditions the slash piles you plan to place will most likely help to reduce the amount of erosion that will occur. I must say however, if that had occurred on a logging job in any of the 3 West Coast states, the logger would have received a hefty fine at the very least. Also anyone using a skidder to run on 50% slope is not only recklessly risking life and limb, they can expect a hefty fine and stop work order (if still operating on the unit), if an OSHA inspector shows up. Such a fine can be imposed even if the inspector shows up long after the job is finished, if the inspector can determine from the skid trails that ground based equipment was run on such slopes.

SwampDonkey

A draw is still a gully even if runoff or a creek of any kind is inactive most of the year. We get those dry gullies in hardwood forest, but come spring time they move a lot of water. Many of the gullies here will be forested with fir and spruce and cedar. I have not seen a gully that didn't have a fan even if it's not actively being added to in recent years. Sometimes it can be a big soup fed by springs or dry gravel, silt and other material and always layered. I don't think anyone in government would bother a person using a dry gully unless it's a safety issue. Some stuff I see going on around water on crown land, tells me the regulations aren't enforced too strictly. Some places there are so many springs, bog holes and <1 m wide creeks for acres and acres that you couldn't cut a stick of wood if the regs were strictly adhered to. For the most part these are on flat terrain so water moves slow no matter what time of year. It still has downstream impacts however, especially during spring melt and high rainfall events.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

That draw was stabilized by vegetation before the harvest, so it stands to reason the it should be re-stabilized by vegetation.  The logging slash will protect the surface and the light seeded plants will re-colonize the draw and stabilize it again.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

woodtroll

Bald Bob, the picture softens the grades the grade of the draw.
The 50 % skidding is minimal in the area but is done, it usually entails finding some one who still has a cable skidder and backing straight up a hill then pulling down. I'm not saying it's right, safe or easy on the land, just saying it is done around here.

I do think the light seeded veg will reestablish, I just want the dirt to be there till it does. 
Thanks for all the input.
I will post pictures, if I get my piles in :).

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