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My lastest sawmill adventure- a Kasco Saw IIB

Started by Celeriac, September 12, 2011, 03:05:50 PM

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Celeriac

Well, better late than never, still working on the mill so I figured it was time for an update. After a bit of playing with the 12v motor system I felt that there had to be a better way of running things. The 12v system makes sense on an engine driven machine. With this mill being electrified the 12v was proving to be a pain. As it was setup there was a transformer to step down plus a couple diodes mounted on plywood. The setup worked okay but depended on the ground as a neutral, etc. which isn't right. To boot the 12v motor was struggling to raise the saw and pulling some 4x the rated full load current. I tried cleaning, oiling, greasing, but to no avail. It seems likely that in time the motor would give up the ghost, at $$$.

Through some searching and patience I came up with a 180vdc motor and controller to raise and lower the saw. I also found a heck of a deal on a 3 phase 230v gearmotor for the carriage. To drive the carriage I purchase a single phase in/three phase out variable frequency drive. All total the total expenditure is likely less that the cost of one replacement gearmotor.  Of course there has been some welding and machining but so far not too many conundrums. Hopefully I can get the wiring finished up tomorrow...

Here are a few pictures.

The new lift motor in place, not much room to spare!


Another view.


Carriage travel motor.


Overall shot, still needs to be wired up.


Thanks for looking.
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

morgoon

I never cease to be amazed at the talent around here

Amazing work!
Homemade bandsaw, made by my mentor and dear friend Unto...who turned 85 this year

And I just made my first longbow...awesome

Celeriac

My what a sweltering day! Hot out and warmer yet in the shop. I managed to get the drive in place, chain shortened, etc. and it looks pretty good. The new control panel is wired up as well. The VFD was a minor pain as every maker has a different idea of how the interface works, parameters are setup, etc.  I am mostly familiar with Allen Bradley and Benshaw drives so this ABB has a good learning curve. Learning is fun, but quickly becomes tedious when the temperature soars. The kinks came out after a few sessions of retreating to the house with the user manual.  There are still a couple issues that need resolved. The first being the speed control potentiometer stops at about 30%, but I guess that's to be expected from a $5 Radio Shack part.

One other change that may not be readily apparent is that the controls are now at a fixed height regardless of the saw height. Originally the controls traveled up and down with the saw. The idea of having the controls at knee height just didn't seem like a real ergonomic setup. I've also setup a limit switch so the carriage can return home and stop on its own. That's probably overkill but it felt like a good idea.

The drive motor.


The new control panel.


I shot a bit of video in an attempt to demonstrate how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnh0IcBHw0A
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

rmack

let's see if I got this right...

you set out to tighten a loose bolt, ended up redesigning a sawmill? 

sounds familiar, nice looking craftsmanship too. :)

the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

Celeriac

Quoteyou set out to tighten a loose bolt, ended up redesigning a sawmill?

I suppose in a sense. The initial thought was that the mill is going to be 50 miles from home and shop, so it should be at minimal risk of issues cropping up. There were a few minor issues that needed attention, at that point the 'onion peeling' began, and this is the result. 

The one remaining issue that has me puzzled is the log clamping system as the factory setup seems awfully cumbersome. I did saw a couple logs and it was really tough to apply much force to the log. Trying to square the cant is a real challenge as the eccentrics don't apply enough force to push the log over tight against the 'knee'. >:( It took one guy with a cant hook to hold the log in position and another to clamp it.  Any good ideas out there?
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Larry

Looks like a well thought out professional modification to me.

One suggestion while you're into the wiring.  Wire in a feed by-pass switch to return the carriage at top speed.  This will save cranking on the pot each time you return and your pot will be set for the next slice.  One of my better mods.

I don't have a real good fix for the clamps but maybe a small improvement.  I cut  "teeth" into the eccentric.  Once I had teeth, more force made it bite into the wood better.  I fabricated a 3' bar so I could really crank on it.  That would push about any size log up tight to the stops.  Also try to clamp with the log or cant in the middle portion of the eccentric.  Only one clamp is needed with the above mods....I repositioned it in the middle of the mill. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Celeriac

Larry, how are the bunks supposed to be ordered?  Does this look like the correct order?


Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Larry



Found a picture.  Double bunks are on each end with the single bunk in the center with the eccentric cam. 

My double bunks look different because I welded stainless steel square tube to the top.  BTW, this allows cutting to within 1" of the bed.  The far double bunk has a toe roller in it also.  Laying to the right of the clamp bunk is my long bar to turn the eccentric.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Celeriac

 :(  Well, we got most everything buttoned up and gave is a whirl, what a wreck! Had a brand new blade on, made the opening cut, then on the return the carriage encountered a sliver the size of a clothes pin and promptly derailed the whole carriage. All four wheels off the track and on the ground, blade off and throwing sparks...   :o We got it back on track then tried a second cut- blade was shot... high amperage, etc.  Put the old blade back on which doesn't cut for beans, comes out of the cut an inch lower than it entered, etc.  Three cuts left a cake of sawdust and pitch on the bandwheels....

Just turned off the shop lights and called it a night. Back to the drawing board.

Not ready to give up my Mobile Dimension just yet!
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

Celeriac

The frustration continues.  >:( I bought a set of roller guide wheels from Cook and modified the guide blocks, etc.  (Pictures to follow...)  Anyhow, I set the guide for about 1/8" deflection and then went through tried to set the blade dead parallel to the track and such. The cuts on the test log are still a bit wavy and every cut is cupped/dished. A straight edge set across the log shows at least 1/16th dish...  Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong... >:(
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

ronwood

Have you tried a new blade that has not been run before to see what happens?

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

beenthere

And also, what species of wood are you sawing?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ga Mtn Man

Are you saying there's a cup across the width of the cut?
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Celeriac

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on August 14, 2012, 01:40:51 PM
Are you saying there's a cup across the width of the cut?

Yes indeed, with a straight edge across a 12" cant there's a sixteenth dip.

After my previous post I did go check things over again and switched blades. With the new blade the cup disappeared, still a bit of wave though. The caveat is that the new blade is a different tooth pattern. The problem blade is a Lenox Woodmaster C, the blade switched to is a Lenox Chipsweep. I guess it would have been best to put on another Woodmaster to see if it's the one blade in particular or some geometry issue with that blade style  ??? 

I have to admit that the mill is beginning to frustrate me a bit. Naturally one hopes everything will run like a charm, but alas it never does. From what I've read here on the forum it seems that band mills are a bit capricious when it comes to blades, possibly more so on smaller mills such as this one, everyone seems to have a different brand, set, rake, & etc. that works best for them. So I suppose it's safe to say that I am now starting that journey with feet dragging.

The log is maple.

Here are a few pictures, firstly the new roller guides.





The wiper/lubricator. It's now plumbed into a drip lubricator. The wiper is something I welded up. It's packed with felt.



This is the blade that was giving me fits with waviness and dished cutting.



This is the Chipsweep, which worked pretty good to finish out the log.



This is the cut left behind by the Chipsweep. There is certainly a lot less dust left in the cut as compared to the other blade!




The journey continues...
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

customsawyer

I have never seen a blade like that last one. The cut that it left is very rough. I hope you get it straitened out. In the pic that has the belt in it, is that your drive belt? If it is then it might be slipping on you some which will let the blade slow down. It will cause the waves that you are fighting.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Celeriac

For a bit of background, someone donated a Kasco Saw II to the camp. We pretty much rebuilt the saw, installed roller guides, etc. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,52911.20.html

The good is that the saw is wired up at camp, the bad part is that I cannot cut decent lumber which is getting frustrating. Nothing like a two hour commute then spending the day fighting with something that should work better than it does! 

The saw's main issue is cutting consistent lumber. The saw seems especially prone to dive. The dive seems related to feed rate which is another part of the frustration- I would think that with 10hp electric the saw would run out of power but I cannot get close to full amperage without the cut quality going out the window. At a feed rate where I can hold a fairly straight line the kerf is filled with fine sawdust, which I would think indicates the feed speed is too low. Up to a decent feed rate and the wild cutting begins. The wildness would appear to be related to the pressure against the blade as I need to back down the feed considerably as the saw dulls. Last time I managed to get a couple hundred bd/ft of maple before I gave and changed the blade. The last fresh blade gave me fits on the first log while cutting 6" boards. I caught it starting to dive, cut the feed rate a bit, and it came back up to level.

I've gone through setting the blade parallel to the line of travel. I've experimented with blade tension and have been running higher than what is recommended by Kasco. Without some way to check the actual blade tension I'm hesitant to up it, more so if there's a mechanical problem I am missing.

Any suggestions of what to check or tweak. Right now my only thought is to try angling the blade up a bit...

-Aaron
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

beenthere

Aaron
Sorry to hear about the woes.
Would be nice if you had continued the old thread, because there may be some clues to help sort out where you are at and still having problems.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Happycamper

Celeric,
  I'm not the pro on the forum but it sounds to me like lack of SET in the blade. That has been my experience.I'm sure the pros will chime in soon.
                                       Jim
               
Wether you think you can or you can't you're right

Celeriac

Quote from: beenthere on October 23, 2013, 05:56:46 PM
Aaron
Sorry to hear about the woes.
Would be nice if you had continued the old thread, because there may be some clues to help sort out where you are at and still having problems.

I was going to do that but it popped up that it had been too long and I should start a new thread.

As an added note it seems to be doing better at cutting White Pine, so perhaps too much set? The blades I've been using are new Lenox. I'm about out so thinking about trying another brand.
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

47sawdust

Aaron,
My first mill was a 1997 Kasco IIB.I replaced the original blade guide bearings with greasable bearings from Kasco,did a blade alignment and it cut great.I ran Timberwolf  10 degree blades at high tension.I don't remember the exact tension but it was close to 2100#.It was powered by a 20 hp  B&S Vanguard,Great engine.The quality of the lumber I sawed was excellent.The up/down and travel speed were a rather glacial pace and I'm not getting any younger.
I hope this helps,Kasco was always there to help.

Mick
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Celeriac

Today I orders some Munkfors blades from Menominee Saw. Once those arrive I'll take another crack at getting things figured out and squared away.
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

EZ

I been using munkfors blades for 12 years and they are the top of the line blade for me.
EZ

scrout

Celeriac,
My Lynn design puts bottom of the roller guides 1/4 inch below the bottom of the band wheels for better blade control.  Yours look to be the same height?
Also, my 1 inch diameter hydraulic tension set point is 2300 psi for a 1.25 inch wide blade.


 

I also have a makeshift (ghetto) automatic electric carriage setup made from a HF router speed control, battery charger, and HF winch.  Actually works ok, but if something goes amiss, like you run out of gas, the HF winch will break things if you don't get it shut off immediately.  Ask me how I know....does you VFD have a programmable torque limit?

Celeriac

Well I expect it's time for an update of the ongoing tribulations with this mill. Now that we're back to sawing the problems continue, the chief of which is the blade wanting to dive when taking a decent cut. I figured the mill would run out of power, but sadly I cannot get anywhere close to full load without everything going to ruin.  >:(

As I set the mill up originally the guides did put a bit of down deflection in the blade. This week I cut some 1/4" spacers which I used to space the guides down. This helped but the mill was still prone to dive. We checked the blade for parallel to the travel, etc. and everything looks fine. Trying to keep frustration from turning to rage I kept puttering at sawing. After lowering the guides I observed that the blade dive is only occurring on one side of the cut, that being the side with the movable guide. In addition the dive seemed to be related to force against the blade. So we proceeded to start wiggling, tugging, and pulling.

It appears there is a lot of flex in the movable guide. So my theory goes- as the movable guide starts taking the thrust of the blade it pivots backward, which in turn inclines the blade downward into a dive. This would explain why when slowing the carriage to a creep one can sometimes get the blade to come back inline. 

Now the question becomes why did this show up? Do they all do this? My conjecture is that the original Kasco guide setup has the blade pinched between two rollers so even if the blade tries to dive it is contained. By me switching to roller guides there is nothing to hold the blade other than alignment and the bit of pressure from the guides being lower than the wheels.

So how to fix the guide flex? Next time I go to camp I will take a dial indicator to pinpoint what is flexing. From visual observation it appears perhaps the rods the guide travels on are flexing. If that is the case I don't know of an easy solution short of spending a grand on Thompson linear stuff.  Time to put on the thinking cap. ???

The other thing tickling my brain is the lack of crown on the bandwheels. The Kasco wheels are dead straight so in essence the guide has to take the thrust load of the blade. Would crowning the wheels significantly reduce the load on the guides?

Thanks for listening, and any suggestions are certainly appreciated.

-Frustrated in Ohio.
aka Aaron
Currently learning the ins and outs of a Mobile Dimension 128.
"What's that?"
"My sawmill."
"Looks like a VW ran into an antenna tower!"

47sawdust

I did purchase new greaseable blade guide rollers from Kasco for my IIB,also I purchased urethane belts from Suffolk Machine and had a machine shop mill a v-groove in the wheels.3 years of sawing with no problems.You must be very frustrated.Good luck ,Mick
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

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