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Doubling my power

Started by maple flats, August 25, 2011, 12:23:45 PM

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maple flats

I have been running my sugarhouse on solar supplemented with a diesel generator for 2 years. I had 300 watts in yr 1& 760 watts in yr 2. I just finished ordering another 760 watts to add to my array. This is continuing my long term plan. Add at least 760 more watts each year until I reach my goal of up to 5320 watts minimum. I have been using Kyocera KD 185 GX PLU panels since yr 2, after getting different ones at a higher price and they turned out not to be UL approved. These are 24V panels and I run them to the sugarhouse in series strings of 4 each. In the sugarhouse I have a Outback FX80 charge controller and an XW6048 inverter. Unfortunately my generator (6000 watt) does not produce clean enough power and the inverter does not like it. I'm going to look for an inverter generator or at least one that produces power the inverter will like. With the right generator they can play together.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

mometal77

Too many Assholes... not enough bullets..."I might have become a millionaire, but I chose to become a tramp!

mad murdock

xantex has a nice line up of inverters, modified sine, pure sine, in all kinds of configs and output sizes.  Their pricing seems reasonable from what I have seen, and their quality and engineering look good as well.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

John Mc

Sounds as though he's looking for a cleaner generator, not an inverter.

BTW, Maple Flats, have you considered a DC generator? There are some surplus phone system generators around that work well in off-grid applications (with a bit of reprogramming).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

maple flats

With some experimenting I discovered the problem with my generator was quite simple. It did not look like a problem, but the contacts at the generator plug were corroded enough to mess with the inverter. An electrical engineer told me I had to install an Appleton Generator Snorkel. I checked into that, they are just a high end, more dependable contact, and very expensive. I got to thinking, if integrety of contact was the issue, I should be able to improve what I had. I SS brushed the contacts on the male end and ran ignition files in the female connection. Then I frequently remove and replace the connector (each time I start the generator) to keep the contacts clean. The generator now works good with my inverter. Even though the oxidation was not obvious, it was interfering with the quality of the connection. What I now have is a plug to connect to the original generator connection receptical (4 prong with tinned contacts on the plug). I may someday buy the appleton (about $375 for the set, these have high quality tight fitting copper contacts on both parts) but for now I'll deal with the currant connections.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

John Mc

One thing you can do to help protect your contacts is use di-electric grease. Put some on the male plug, and squirt some in the holes of the female plug on your generator. This will help protect the contacts form corrosion. It's important to use di-electric grease, not ordinary grease. Ordinary grease can form a conductive path, and short out your plug. Di-electric grease is used a lot on trailer plugs in automotive applications, as well as in a lot of marine applications. Most hardware stores carry it (it usually comes in small tubes)

Your generator is not in the sugarhouse, is it? that's a rather wet atmosphere for a piece of equipment like that.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Don_Papenburg

You can also use NC123 (By National Chemsearch) . That is some good stuff . I have seen it sprayed into a motor and then the motor was run submerged in water.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

maple flats

Quote from: John Mc on December 10, 2011, 09:21:02 PM
One thing you can do to help protect your contacts is use di-electric grease. Put some on the male plug, and squirt some in the holes of the female plug on your generator. This will help protect the contacts form corrosion. It's important to use di-electric grease, not ordinary grease. Ordinary grease can form a conductive path, and short out your plug. Di-electric grease is used a lot on trailer plugs in automotive applications, as well as in a lot of marine applications. Most hardware stores carry it (it usually comes in small tubes)
Your generator is not in the sugarhouse, is it? that's a rather wet atmosphere for a piece of equipment like that.
I'll try the Dielectric grease, thanks.
No, the generator sits 75' away, behind a sound barrier wall. The power is conducted by 2/0 triplex overhead cable into the sugarhouse.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

After announcing last Aug that I was doubling my power, I had an alignment issue and the new pannels sat in storage. I just took 2 out and mounted them. Instead of 1 string of 4 I now have 2 strings of 3. I also broke down and bought the proper connector for my generator feed. I hope to connect it next week. This summer I need to use my excavator to shift the alignment of my panel ground mount so I can then go to 2 strings of 4. I will likely order 4 more panels in the summer of 2013 to add again. That time I'll pour the piers and mount the racking the same day and hold it by bracing so it aligns right the first time. My last pour was just 1/2" off but that little bit off made it impossible to join the 2 sections together.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

Today I pushed the ground piers to make the racking allign with the first section, and mounted the mounting rails, tomorrow I'll mount the last 2 panels and will finally have my whole 8 panelsx185 watts connected. Next will need to be the purchase of 4 more, the mounts are all ready there.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

New problem, I just tried to order 4 more panels to match what I have. It turns out that panel was discontinued long enough ago that I can't find 4 more. Panels must match exactly or potential energy is lost. You can not hook different panels to the same charge controller and get the full potential from them. Now I need to pick another panel, hook them to new wires, connect a new controller and then I can charge the battery bank. Likely I'll get a smaller controller and connect it to my 8 panels I have, then use my big one FX80 to a new array hoping to get more watts before they are dropped from production. This sure wastes money, I had the FX80 to run up to 80 amps at 96V. That controller was over $500 and now I need to duplicate that function and add a few hundred $ worth of wire (250' away, but Again, I'll add lighter just to carry the 1480 watts of the existing panels at 96V into the sugarhouse.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

JSNH

With the FX 80 you can easily put up to 4,000 watts to it. Worry about getting your string voltage nearly the same. It will work just fine.
I have an fx80 with just under 4,000 watts on it. I also have a mx60 with 3,000 watts and that is a bit mixed some 210 watt pannels and some 200 but the voltages of each string are nearly the same.



 

This is the 4,000 watt group. The mill just happened to be in the ideal place for the panels.

maple flats

Nice set up. I'll look into that, if correct it may simplify my issue.
Thanks
Dave
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

I finally came up with my next move. I could not find any panels to work close enough to wire side by side so I'll buy 8 more @ 220 watt. With these I'll rewire everything (easy to do) with 2 of my 185 watt panels and 2 new at 220 watt in series and make 4 strings in parallel. This will limit the new panels to about 200 watts max because of the Imp (currant in amps at max power) of the 185's.
Then in a few years I'll split the system as I move the power to the new home I'll build. At that time I'll get a smaller MPPT charge controller for the 8 panels @ 185 watt and I'll wire the 220's + several additional 220's into the FX80 controller I have. That will then bring the 220's back to their potential. This of course assumes that the 220's are still in production at that time. As of now it is one of their better sellers which might translate to a longer run as a currant model. Splitting them into 2 different systems requires an additional cable feed from the array to the controllers. I now run 240-250', when the house is built the distance will be more like 100' less, which means a far less costly cable necessary.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

WoodenHead

Hi Dave,

Panels continue to move up in size.  So you may face the same issue again in a year's time. 

I assume the Kyocera 185's you have are 72 cell panels?  The 220W panels you are looking at are likely 60 cell.  60 cell panels are now pushing up into the 250-260W range and 220's are becoming harder to get.  There are also 72 cell panels in 300W+ range.  And on it goes.

I have seen some 185W modules still offered for sale here and there.  Suntech offers a panel around 180-185W.  They still seem to be obtainable.  I'm not sure how the new import tariffs come into play for you though.  Suntech is a Chinese company, but they produce respectable solar panels.  Otherwise a Sharp 185W module is worth a try.  I'm not sure how easy they are to buy these days.  I'm mostly using 235W-260W for installations.

   

maple flats

New plan. I received the 8 new panels yesterday, awaiting the racking which is in transit. We decided to go grid tie, and to order about 2000 watts more, while these panels are available. Forced to get solar installer in order to get grid tie (net metering) and to receive the tax credits. They don't allow self install, even if the installation passes the inspection. The job must be completed by a CERTIFIED SOLAR INSTALLER.
Dave
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

update. We have had the utility co. "working on" bringing power to us for 2 mos. now. They are slow. Everytime they ask for anything we have it to them in 24 hrs or less. Then we wait, and wait, and wait some more. My guess is that they are in no hurry to connect because initially we will be net metered with no bill to us until we build the home onsite. Then our use should about net meter to ZERO each year. They are required to buy my power back but apparently are not required to connect us in any reasonable time frame.
Any ways, they have the poles staked and we await the invoice we must pay BEFORE they will put us on the schedule. Our next question is the installer. He has not yet quoted the total price for his services. We likely will hire him to connect the 8 new panels plus add 14 more additional ones for a total of about 6.4 KW. He will then bring the system up to grid tie standards. He should have the figures to us this week. The part that bothers me the most is that I can't do the work and just have an "official inspection" to connect. The Certified Installer said I have everything correct on what I did so far. Now I need to pay him to finish the project to grid tie.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

This past week the utility finally set the pole and hung the transformer. The next day I started digging the trench, my grandson finished it yesterday (18, & he is just learning & loves to run my mini excavator). Tomorrow I'll put the wire in the trench, in conduit.
My "certified solar installer" is still waiting for project approval from NYSERDA, who pays part of the project. He says it should come thru soon. I should be operational, on grid and net metered hopefully before 10/1/12, time will tell.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

Finally! I now have grid power, as of 11/21. lots of delays indeed. My hoped for 10/1 connection came on 11/21. Still I only have my original 1480 watt connected at this time. The new installation of what ended up being 4820 watts is awaiting a replacement inverter. The first one that came had internal damage caused by a relay breaking loose and doing considerable damage to circuits and the motherboard. The contractor was promised a replacement in on Monday 11/26/12. If in fact it does arrive then they will return to connect it Tuesday (so I was told).
Once that inverter in installed, everything else is ready and my full 6.32KW solar system will be grid tied. All power now runs into the sugarhouse but when I build our new home it will then run from there to the house.
In summary, utility set a pole with transformer 210' off the road. From there I run 190' underground to a pole mounted meter and main disconnect. Then I ran to the sugarhouse (35' more wire) to my main panel. In the main panel the contractor ran from a breaker to my original Xantrex inverter/battery backup solar. He ran another breaker for the new array portion, thru a meter (to record power going to the grid from that part of the system) and then to the array at 240' away, on an extension of the racking for my first 1480 watts. In the next few months I'll put this up on my web site: www.daveandjoanssugarhouse.com  . At this time I just have my original portion and our story. I'll post again after the entire system is operational.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

This afternoon I got a call from my solar contractor. He had just finished installing the replacement inverter and had turned the system on. It is official, I now have 6.32 KW of solar grid tied with a 1480 watt portion of it battery backup AND grid tied. When I got done working it was dark, I'll go look tomorrow. I can't wait to see the meter run backwards, something it will do most days except during maple season. After we build our new home on site the system is expected to come very close to a net zero at each anniversary date. After the contractor sends me the final bill, I will have paid for the electricity I will use for the rest of my life and that of all who live there after me. The first panels made back in the 1940's are still producing electricity.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

A few issues later and the system is working as well as it can with the combination I have. I discovered that when I went grid tie I had to change things a little to sell any power on my battery backup portion of my system. A Xantrex inverter does not play efficiently with an Outback charge controller. After the holidays I need to order an Xantrex Charge Controller and communication cable so my battery bank is held at full charge while selling excess to the grid. With mixed brands the sell mode is only reachable by selling excess just before the batteries reach full charge. This ultimately would mean that my back up battery bank would need replacing sooner. Batteries only last the longest when kept at full charge. When I get this change set up the battery bank will always be at full charge except during a grid outage, when the batteries are supplying the energy being used. Then as soon as either the sun recharges them or the grid comes back online the batteries will again be fully charged and kept that way. :) :) :)
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

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