iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

About to purchase our 1st owb, which brand?

Started by randb, August 01, 2011, 08:25:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

randb

We are about to purchase our 1st outdoor wood burner and just started doing some research.  We have heard really good things about Hawkens Energy woodburners.  We are also looking at central boiler, woodmaster and empyre.  Any advice on any of these wood be great!  It is a tough decision to make.

Thanks

Rhonda and Brad

doctorb

Any established gasifier stove that's been on the market for more than a couple of years will work well.  On the FF, most comments and critiques have been for CB products, but, using the search function above, you can get all the comments about each brand that's been made here.

A few suggestions:  1). Try and figure out how much heat output you need.  If you're heating a large house or a house plus other buildings, etc., that will decrease your choices a bit, saving you some time.  2). Talk to other people in your area about the dealers and their response to you both with installation and after.  Many of the complaints registered here are rooted, IMO, in poor dealer service and knowledge.  So the make of stove May be important, but the guy backing it up is equally so.
3). Be sure to check your local regulations regarding use of the OWB.  Some states/counties/municipalities have new regs regarding whether stove are allowed at all, and, if so, which types.  4). Check with your neighbors.  How far away are they.  Will they be the recipient of
smoke from your unit?  If you don't plan this well, they can complain, leading to all kinds of trouble and acrimony!

I have a CB 2300 that's 2 seasons old and doing well.  I am pleased with my dealer.  I would purchase an E-2400 if I were installing one today.  The smaller E-1400 has had good reviews here as well.  The other brands are less widely discussed.  Good luck.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

randb


Dean186

I have some Hawken's brochures and I spent some time talking with a Hawken's salesmen before deciding on a Central Boiler E-Classic 1400.

If you a trying to heat 7,300 square feet, I would go with the E-Classic 2400 or their next larger one the E-Classic 3200.

doctorb

That's a lot oF space to heat - more than most on the multiple threads reported here over the past 2 - 3 years.  I would suggest you study the list of epa approved outdoor wood burning furancs at this link. 

http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html

This list compares the level of polutants from each brand, and also allows comparison for the BTU output.  You need a big stove, so this list will help you eliminate many of the more common smaller or intermediate models.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

randb

Thanks for the replies, yes we are heating a large area.  Our house is almost like a duplex, my mother lives in half and our family lives in half,  and we are heating a large garage.  We can see our neighbors, but none of them are close.  In our part of the house we have forced air, but my mother and the garage have in-floor radiant heat, does this make a difference?  The different dealers in our area are central boiler, woodmaster and empyre...I see central boiler and woodmaster do have some epa approved owb.

Our propane contract this year was through the roof, and we have access to woods so we figured we may as well make a change this year.

Thanks for all the help!

Rhonda

beenthere

Rhonda
Wood for heating this year should have been split and stacked for drying at least a year ago, and better if for two years.
What was the propane price this year, if you don't mind sayin.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

I talked to a Heatmor dealer at a show, They have EPA approved ones too. I have one of the non gasser and had no problems with it.  Heatmor does not sell the ones like mine anymore.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

doctorb

Rhonda -  

Empyre is also on this list - check the second column as well as the first.  I do not know how the BTU ratings are calculated, and the heat produced by any of these stoves may be subject to an long list of variables that are outside of the control of the unit itself. Type of fuel, dryness, distance from the house, type and diameter of insulated piping used, ambient temperature, efficiency of the insulation of the building, etc.    In your situation, with that much volume to heat, I would suggest more stove rather than less.  I would look for a minimum BTU rating of 150 - 160k BTU's.  I wouldn't look at anything less on this list.  I base this on my experience with the CB e-2300 ( output 160,000 BTU's ) heating a 4500 sq. Ft. home.  Plenty of power for my needs.  If you go with a smaller unit, you may find that you will need to feed it more often, as the heat requirements of your home may make the stove go into high burn more often, using more fuel.  Hope the list helps.  The only Heatmor stove on
the list is small, with a relatively low BTU output.  The list is current, update July 13, 2011.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

randb

Our propane bill would contract for $3500.00.  We do not plan on cutting green trees, we will cut already fallen trees.  We have access to dry wood, so hopefully the dryness of the wood should not be to much of an issue.

Thanks for the info on the BTUs, these are the types of things I want to make sure we get correct when we purchase the wood burner.  I want to have in my head what is necessary when we meet with the dealers.

Thanks Rhonda

martyinmi

Rhonda,
  Check out Portage and Main. They build gasifiers and conventional OWB's. I've never read or heard anything negative about the company or their products. I've not seen any brand out there that is built as well a s they are. I guess my second choice for a gasser would be CB. They really back their products well.

   Marty
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

karlk

I have the portage&main gasser, give Brian a call he is very helpfull.

doctorb

Remember that testing of OWB's by the EPA is voluntary, not mandatory.  Maunfacturers do it so they can meet the community / state regs allowing their stoves to be sold in all jurisdictions that permit it.  So OWB's like the Portage & Main may be very good stoves, but are not able to be compared via similar testing to the others listed.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

karlk

The portage& maine optimizer is phase 2 qualified by the epa

martyinmi

Hey Doc-
   Portage and Mains Optimizer 250 has been tested and it rated ahead of the CB 1400 and 2300, but behind the 2400 and 3200. One guy I spoke to(farm show in Ky.) said that the Optimizer 350, along with one of one of Natures Comfort's models, were two of the boilers responsible for the EPA to begin rethinking their testing procedures, as they both achieved over 100% in testing, which we all know is not possible. The 350 sounds like it would suit Rhonda's needs just fine, as would the CB 2400.
   Only one year of community college and I just taught a doctor something! Now, if I could only figure out how to make that little dancing character with the shades dance at the end of a sentence.

   Marty
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

doctorb

Happy to learn it too.  I have no explanation why the P & M is left off the updated EPA list.  Other blogs have stated that it was EPA approved, and those conversations were in 2010.  Go figure.

From what's been said here before by persons smarter about it than me, I think the reality check on any testing change is that the tests are not real world based, and multiple variables exist in each of our backyards that can greatly effect the performance of any OWB.  Coupled with the manufacturers building the OWB's to pass this test, rather than to perform optimally under these different variables, and you have a situation where it is quite diificult to accurately compare these things.   
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

martyinmi

DocB-
   It's still on the list. It is under Piney Manufacturing Limited. The site says last updated July 13, 2011.
   Will you be attending the pig roast? There are a few of you out there I'm really looking forward to meeting with.
   Going to try the Forestry Forum Boogie Character now 8)
Marty
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

doctorb

Unfortunately, no pig roast for me.  I just had a total hip replacement July 12.  Next year. 

Thanks for the P & M clarification.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

doctorb

Marty

The Optimizer 250 from P&M is rated at only 78000 BTU's. I don't think it's necessarily a good choice for Rhonda's very large house.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Kansas

I'm getting ready to order the CB E Classic 3200 for the new building that is getting ready to start next week. Its cheaper than the wood burning furnace, and I guess the EPA is phasing those out next spring. Hot water heat under the floor. Looking at 5/8 Pex-Al-Pex for the piping. A bit more expensive, but I want something I don't have to worry about. Reflective/bubble bubble/poly for the insulation. Seems like Tek Supply is about as cheap as any of them. If anyone has a better idea, I would like to hear it.

Kansas

Now I just talked to Portage and Maine. Now I'm waffling a bit on a choice.

doctorb

Wow, Kansas, those two units are vastly different, unless P&M has a larger uniit that has yet to be EPA qualified.  Haven't heard much about the CB 3200, but the stats are overwhelming.  Have heard rumors about 2+ day burns!  The high BTU output from that thing is very efficient, if the tests are to be believed.  
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Kansas

Portage ones runs 93% efficiency. That is independently tested.  Thats the 250. BTU rating is close to the same. The E classic does have more water capacity. Price isn't much difference. The thing is, I can't find a bad word from anyone on the portage. And while salesmen don't generally impress me. This one kind of did. I take it there are a lot more tubes in the portage. Other than that, what differences are there?

martyinmi

If you get a chance, go to their web site and compare apples to apples. The P&M 350 should do anything the 2400 will do- in fact I believe it falls in between the CB 2400 and 3200 as far as heating capacity. I have a brochure around somewhere comparing the 250-350-and 450. The 450 is one awesome machine that will heat well over 10000 sq. ft. if my memory is still even remotely intact. Don't take my word- by all means do your homework. You are definitely on the right track, as  you have narrowed your choices down to two of the very best ones out there. I think it is so cool that more and more people are deciding to go with gasifiers. Environmentally it is the best choice, your neighbors will barely know its even there, and you will be in awe of this amazing OLD technology when you get it up and running. Keep us posted.

   Marty 
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

Kansas

I watched their video. Very impressive. Looking at the 350. Again, googling it and going to different forums that talk about this stuff, I simply can't find anyone that owns one that has a bad thing to say about them. Not saying E classics are bad. I just have read a lot of the threads on them on here and have seen some problems crop up.

martyinmi

My self and two of my friends have been looking for what we consider the perfect OWB for a few years now. We have collectively looked at offerings from more than 20 manufacturers and we all came up with the same conclusion- the P&M's are the best constructed and easiest to maintain boilers out there. They are a little more pricey than some of the other ones, but if you look at the way they are built and their simplicity, we are convinced that we are getting the best bang for our buck with them. Our's arrived yesterday afternoon (3- 250's) and we are now looking forward to winter. All three of us are quite picky about the way we do things, and we feel that as long as we maintain our water levels the way we should and keep the firebox clean when not in use, these units should out live us(49,50, and 67 years old respectively). We had actually narrowed our findings down to CB, P&M, and Wood Doctor. The WD units look like fine machines, and I'm sure they are, but when we talked to a couple owners they informed us that they were not so happy with how the company is handling their warranty issues. CB has a reputation for taking care of their customers, but we all felt the heat exchange set-up on the P&M was tried and true(Scotch Marine Style) and to us it just seems better and more durable. The few controls they have on them are readily available and simple to replace if necessary.
   As I said in my earlier post, you have narrowed it down to probably the two best out there. Now it boils down to which  one suits you the best.
   On a side note. I have four(4) OWB's now- one home made conventional, one home made gasifier, an Empyre Pro Series 100, and now a P&M 250. My beautiful bride thinks I have a problem. Some people collect cars, guns, tractors(that's me too)etc. I have an OWB collection building up. I don't share her feelings. Curious as to what others think.

   Marty
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

Kansas

They actually shot me a price slightly cheaper for the 350 than E Boiler did for the 3200. And they would throw freight in there. Said they didn't have one in this area, and really wanted one put down here. Sales pitch or true, I don't know. The 350 is rated slightly less BTU. I have to check to see if it has enough water capacity for what we are doing. I''m not going to try to keep the building at 70. We will be going in and out all the time bringing logs in and lumber out. So for Kansas winters, we still have to wear a fair amount of clothes.

martyinmi

Hey Doc-
   I agree with you about the 250 being too small for Rhonda's house. The 350 will be more than adequate,as their literature says it will heat between 7000 and 15000 sq. ft. depending on how well it's insulated.
   As far as the EPA's findings are concerned- I guess from personal my experience I don't believe too many of their statistics are accurate. I own the Empyre 100 that THEY say puts out 48721 btu's. One of my friends owns a Wood Doctor HE 5000, which THEY say puts out only 44502 btu's. My Empyre WILL NOT even come close to the output of the WD. I would in fact say that the WD 5000 will heat more than twice the sq.ft. of mine. My friend heats his house(bigger than mine) and garage in a colder part of the state and his doesn't know there's a load on it. When is gets cold, mine definitely knows it.
   The EPA is supposed to be in the process of overhauling their testing procedures, and from my experience, it's about danG time. I am very pleased that Rhonda and her husband are considering a gasifier, and which ever one of the two they end up choosing will be one of the two best OWB's out there.
   If you ever get the opportunity to give a P&M the once over at a show or see one at a dealer location, or especially see one in operation, you'll understand why everyone who owns one loves them.
   The pig roast was awesome. It is very generous of Jeff and his family to host it. My son and I are already making plans for next year. John(my son) met a new friend from Connecticut and they swapped E-mails and phone #'s. I'm sure Jeff will read this, so once again, Thank You!
   Marty
 
No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

Thank You Sponsors!