Gripes my @$$

[bull]

 someone needs a smack  " Home Cheapo" wake up  >:(
 Buyin from the big guy just keeps the wound open  
 Support the local's your not saving any money by going to
 the junk warehouse. remember everything youbuy there is
built to their speck and isn't the same quality even though it carry's the names.....  Buy John Deere from a John Deere dealers etc..... not a chain store.....
 boycott sounds good to me remember they batch buy and sell all that junk lumber ;)

[Fla._Deadheader]

OK then, where does one go to GET that stamp??? What org. or Assn. or Govt. office??? Who is the one power to be that says what the price is ???

  Didn't I read a good while back, that guys like Dr. Gene don't like graders "giving" their services away??? What good does it do to have your lumber graded, if you can't get it stamped for building ???

  I hear this crap all the time about no rough sawn for construction, but, seems like a thriving business of buying old buildings (rough sawn) , taking them down, and resawing the timbers into usable lumber. If the rough sawn is such a building hazard, how the heck did it last all these years ???

[Haytrader]

Harold,

You better be careful.
You're thinkin again.

 ;)

[Tom]

http://www.spib.org/

[Fla._Deadheader]

Shoot Tom, I got all that. They are the ones that won't send Ed the info.

  Hmmmmmmm, lets see, Pensacola, huh ???  DanG lives over thata way.  HEY DanG, we got a trip for ya. You said you like trips. How about it ???  This affects your future too ??? ;D

[Frank_Pender]

Percy, you are correct.  it is the BIG boy who control the system.   the have to, it is their breadand butter.  they do not give a DanG about our butter or bread, so long as their bottom line is black and not red.  

I looked into this issue here in Oregon and few years ago.   I got so mad at the time I thought Alice was going to have me committed to a padded cell.  What has to happen is this:  The states legislatures have to be gotten to.   That is most likely going to be nect to impossible as the small guys cannot get enough dollars together to fight what needs to be fought for.   And, the majority of the legislators has less than than what is needed to really understand the ture issue; the needs of and for the little fellas and gals.  

In my case I have a man that is certified via the place he works as well as by the state to do private grading of construction grade lumber.     The whole key in his situation is that he was initially trained by a very large processor and is now,  working for an even larger proscessor.

As to the various issues in areas of inspection, Here in one county they want the rough lumber graded before it is used in the construction of a home.  In an adjacent county they said to build the house first then grade the lumber.  Whole key is to go to school.  I tried that.   One out fit wanted severl thousand $ to train me by comeing to my ill site and useing it as the classroom for one student, me.   I told them where to go and how to get there.  I doubt I will ever be one of their students. :D

Again, I truly believe it all begins with the state legislatures and the building codes division for each states department of commerce.  And we all know who controls those purse strings,  The BIG boys.  

If you take a look at who the lobyists were at the time of legislation in the state of Oregon's rules on who has to build with kiln dryed lumber, it would not be suprising at all;  The BIG boys.  All public building in the state of Oregon have got to be built out of kiln dryed lumber.  If I am not mistaken it only has to be down to somewhere between 15 and 20 %. :-/

My soap box is getting slick! >:(  

[Kirk_Allen]

Well I think I have read enough.

I have come up with my stamp.

AFPA - AD-10-13
No. 1

Allens Forest Products Alliance - Air Dried (KD for Kiln Dried) to 10-13% No. 1 grade (or whatever grade it is.)

Any one want to join the new Allens Forest Products Alliance.  If we all stick together I know that a difference can be made.  If we inspect to the standard then there is no reason we cant stamp our wood as meeting such a standard.  

I see no reason why we cant form such an orginazation.
The SPIB appears to be a self appointed orginazation that most now beleive are the law.  

Any takers?  Im ready to kick things off.  Who will join me!

Kirk

[Flurida_BlackCreek]

Kirk,

If it comes with an official looking piece of parchmant I can fill out myself and hang on my mill... , I'm in. Why not, other professions do it. ;)

[beenthere]

When I went looking for grading information, I think what you may be talking about falls under the grades discussed in Chapter 6 of the Wood Handbook. These grades have to do with the procedures followed to assign strength values to a piece of wood that is graded and stamped. From what I read, there are a bunch of figures that go into the calculations, and apparently can be visually graded as well as machine graded.

The Wood Handbook can be accessed here.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm

[Fla._Deadheader]

Now, THIS is where I was headed. (sometimes my road has too many curves) :. I agree with Kirk. I think that the SPIB is a self appointed organization, also. Who are they to set standards and then allow stuff like Arky posted, to be allowed to be stamped and sold, whereas the SYP I have been sawing , has NO knots, NO defects and the growth rings are less than 1/8th inch thick???  

  Count me in. I'm gettin old enough that I don't give a rats butt about these no sense laws???

  It would be interesting to me to find a way to poll ALL small sawmillers, and find out how much construction grade stuff is produced in North America, compared to the "big guys", and NOT be allowed to use for actual home and business construction. Any ideas out there ???

  We only started sawing in late April of last year, and according to my tally book, we sawed GOOD grade SYP, and produced over 8000 bd/ft. That doesn't include all the Cypress and Heart Pine for cosmetic things like Paneling, flooring, tables, etc, and we log more than we saw ???

According to these figures, someone that saws full time or every weekend, MUST put out a lot of bd/ft???

[Don P]

FWIW my understanding of the structure is that the National Bureau of Standards gave authority to the ALSC //www.alsc.org. They in turn oversee your SPIB,as well as the other recognized stamps from NELMA, TPI, WWPA , NLGA and the other rulemaking members.

I would be careful making any kind of stamp that might be viewed in a light that would label them as "deceptively similar" ;).

[Kirk_Allen]

Beenthere:  I have again read the information from the forestry publications regarding grading and I have yet to find any where that tells me I cant grade my own lumber.  What I do see is that many private organizations have been formed to be graders and they all grade to a common standard.  

I will work on a few details from my end over the next couple of weeks and find out what we can do.

I'm confident that as long as we establish a legitimate organization that conforms to the grading standard we should be able to stamp our lumber as graded lumber meeting a specific grade recognized by the Forestry grading guidelines.

Although I am not an attorney I have had enough legal dealings in my lifetime to be able to read through some of the garbage that some think are laws.

My primary business deals with the training and selling of patented fire equipment to the fire departments all over the world.  The one I hear the most is; Is it NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) approved.  Answer: THE NFPA DOES NOT APPROVE ANYTHING.  They are a for profit organization that got with numerous people (mostly manufactures) and set up an organization that establishes standards for the Fire Service.  No problem.  As long as a product meets or exceeds the standard you able to promote it as such.  IE. Meets or exceeds NFPA xxxxx

The wood industry is no different from what I have been able to find out.  

I will soon be stamping my wood as meeting or exceeding the USDA Forest Service Hardwood Log Grades and Lumber Grade Yields for Factory Lumber as is outlined in Forest Research Paper NE-468 - 1980.  

Now with that, everyone needs to realize that placing your own stamp as I have outlined does carry with it liability.  In the event you sell your lumber as meeting or exceeding the standard and something happens you can be held liable in the event the lumber was in fact not in accordance with grading standards as marked.  

To Arkansawer and others:  Keep a log book and document each and every time you come across lumber that is stamped but does not meet the standard.  Why?  This is the most important step in the long process for supporting our position on grading our own lumber.  

Can they legally tell us we cant grade our lumber when we dump hundreds if not thousands of documented cases of fraudulent grading practices by those who have appointed themselves as the "Wood Gods".  I think not. 8) 8)

On another note, I pray that my input and work toward this subject does not get deleted by pressure from some special interest group.  I know that there are many on this forum that may very well be sawing for some large operations that don't want to see the small guy with the same rights but rest assured, its everyones right to be qualified to grade lumber.
It is not a privilege as some would lead us to believe and the more I wright, the madder I'm getting. >:(

I will get off my soap box for now but rest assured, I will investigate this matter and prove my point.  

To the administrators:  I'm sorry if the above comment offended any one as it was not intended to do so.  I only mention it because I have had valuable information deleted in the past from other sites because of special interests. I have not seen any such case on this board and have nothing but the finest of words and respect for those who made this sight available.  The information and resources contained on this site are priceless in my opinion.  Again, forgive me if my words were taken the wrong way.

God Bless and wish me luck!

Kirk

[Frank_Pender]

DonP, you are certainly correct withthe authority part.  Also, look and see who is on their board of directors etc.. Just like lumber gradeing folks you have the same folks on the log scaling and gradeing bureaus.  My father use to say in this kind of situation, "You have the fox in the henhouse whatching out for all the little chicks."  In this case, John Q. Public.   Also, it is a way to control the "little people", us.  

I sometimes feel like a Munchkin, is it?  Now, who would the other characters be.  We have The Great Oz himself, the Tin Man, Lion, Scarecrow, Witch of the East and the West, Toto and of course Dorthy.

[smwwoody]

Kirk

Count me in I am behind you 100%

Woody

[VA-Sawyer]

SPIB describes the buyers at the lumberyards:
Selectively Putting It Back !!!!!   ;D

Go for it KA. If we are going to start an independant grading agency for small sawmills then lets make sure the name reflects it.   Suggestions anyone ?

VA-Sawyer

[DanG]

WOW!   What a thread!  I'm glad to see some folks getting interested in our looking out for ourselves.
As I understand it, it's ok to stamp your lumber with your own mill's stamp. It would be fraudulent, however, to make it appear to be approved by an association. Wouldn't want to be caught doing that!  Some inspection offices may accept that as a way to avoid liability themselves, and pass the project, but they may not.  I'm thinking of paying a visit to our building inspector's office just to see what they will, and will not, accept. I would think that such an effort would show "good faith", and demonstrate that I am trying to make my product acceptable. Worst that could happen is wasting a couple of hours. :
A couple of times, I have mentioned my Cousin's husband, who is currently in Baghdad :-/, who works for a big mill in Ga.   He told me he knows some of the "Association" graders, who come around to check behind the mill's graders. He thinks some of them would agree to grade and stamp my lumber, for a fee. I'm not sure I could set up for them to inspect a large enough whack of boards at one time to make it worthwhile.
FWIW, we COULD organize our own association, but we would have to have a network of inspectors to inspect the inspectors, as well as be willing to accept the liability issue. Member mills would have to meet our standards, which would have to match the national standards, and mills would have to pay dues and fees to cover the aforementioned costs. We'd be right back where we started, wouldn't we? ???

[isawlogs]

If we could make that a internatoinal organisation and send up the stamp this way you could definatly count me in .

[Frank_Pender]

I just went to the search bar on the top of my puter page and typed in: Western Wood Products Association.  I came of with 10 different sites that relate to them.  I think one and all would find it very interesting.

[Kirk_Allen]

From what little info I have gathered tonight:
the 1941 US court directs the present formulation of ALS (American Lumber Standard) under the department of commerce.  They in turn appointed a committee (ALSC)

The 1952 court cases only established that the ALSC and Board of Review are impartial agencies adequately constituted to determine competency of grading agencies and that the standards employed by the Board of Review are "adequate to promote competency in grading and in the public interest".

Whats this mean.  Simple.  They can establish accreditation or certification because they have been deemed "adequate to promote competency in grading".

Its very similar to an auto mechanic.  Some can be licensed by ASE but that does not mean you cant work on a car or have an auto mechanics business without it.

I think we will find log grading is the same. I will do a legal review at the law library this week and get more details on the court cases but what I find on the ALSC web site does not reflect that I cant grade my own lumber.  It only outlines that they offer accreditation.  

As a retired AF mechanic I worked  on airplanes.  Now for me to do so in the civilian world I had to have an A&P (Airframe & Power-plant) license.  The key word is "LICENSE"  That makes it a law.

There are no wood grading licenses that I know of.  Only accreditation from an organization or certificates.  

I will post more soon.

Kirk
  

[beenthere]

DanG if DanG ain't hittin on something there, plus add the cadre of lawyers and money counters, etc. and it becomes another big bureaucratical organization, which wouldn't let the little guy in who 'just wants to sell some lumber by his own, but better, rules', IMO. Maybe a way will poke its head through the fog.

Kirk has some good points too.

[VA-Sawyer]

How much per year are we willing to pay for the ability to grade and stamp lumber ?  Is it worth $500 per year ?  How many sawyers on this forum ?  I would guess it would take $250,000 minimum to set up the association. At $500 per member, that would require 500 members. If we  felt it would be worth $2500 to us for the stamp, then we would only need 100 members.
For me, I'm interested at $500, maybe willing to go as high as $1000, but I lose interest quickly at prices higher than that.
There could also be the added cost of required insurance.

How serious are the rest of you ?

VA-Sawyer

[Norm]

My guess is the only reason we don't have the same laws about using ungraded lumber here is they don't have the money to hire the inspectors, otherwise we'd have the same rules. The liability point is where they seem to scare off the little guys from selling construction grade lumber. Same old scare tactics, sure you can do it but what if someone sues you. Jeez I'm tired of that threat, it's the reason I have a million dollar liability insurance rider. Be darned surprised if I ever get sued they will chip in that million. When we built our house we only had to get a building permit which basically tells the county we have something they can tax. The assessor has come out here twice to reassess my place. Each time I have politely told him to get off my property. I'd be darned happy to sell my place for what they assessed it for. Payback for sure. I'm so dang tired of some government agency telling me what I can and can't do I'd like to succed from the state.

There is nothing wrong with standing up for our own rights, not those of the big interests. It's what this country was founded on. I better get off the soapbox I'm afraid of heights but things like this get my dandruff up.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Let me tell you all how serious I am. 2 years ago, with the financial scandals and bankruptcies, I lost my whole Pension fund. GONE. I just turned 60. I am WAY in debt from starting this logging deal. Partners bailed. I probably won't saw enough SYP to make being a part of this plan monetarily worth while to me. I will have to work hard until my time here is up.

  However, I have a son that is also struggling, and together, we are slowly coming out of the dark financial mess we are both in. This MAY help him in the future.

  I am looking at helping ANYONE that has a mill, OR, that has some Timber, that wants to build their own home, or one for their children and Grand children. Selling "High Grade" construction lumber should be something anyone can do, provided it meets OR exceeds the standards set by the Associations.

  The question of having "Graders" or "Inspectors" scattered all over the place is a valid one. Like mentioned above, a fee that would pay someone in a particular area, to grade and certify construction lumber, would only benefit those in that area. What's wrong with that ???  If "we" can set up an organization that can be divided into regions, throughout the country, there is no reason that this plan cannot be implemented. There will have to be inspections by our own people OR by the certifying association. Fine. At least, this is a start. Anyone that feels a fee is not in their best interests, only has to not be involved. Simple  Nothing is free. New York State has thrown down the Gauntlet, by trying to implement crap rulings. The Sawmilling group and the "Small" sawmill manufacturers challenged that ruling, and The State QUICKLY backed down.  Who from New York State can give us the straight poop on that ???

  Today, I will find a way to get some kind of information from the SPIB Assn. I AM or (should be) totally commited!!!

  Hopefully, the Sawmill manufacturers, like WM, Petersen, Baker and others will read this thread, and offer support. It is in THEIR best interests also ???

[DanG]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned; it IS an election year. There just may be some lonely politician out there that is looking for some sort of a grass-roots issue to espouse. There aren't enough of us to do much to his voter base, but he could show himself as a champion of the little guy. :

I was just wondering, ???  how many of you  have actually had lumber rejected for lack of a stamp?  How many have talked with the building inspectors to see what kind of stamp they want to see?  This whole thing may be as simple as having your own mill's stamp made, for some of us.  After all, the stamp is just a guarantee that the lumber is what it says it is. I suspect that Kirk is on the right track, in that the stamp doesn't have to be from any particular organization.

[IndyIan]

I just did a quick search in google and I couldn't find any examples of anyone getting sued for lumber failing in buildings, except for pressure treated lumber.

It seems that if a building fails its always blamed on poor design or assembly, not on the wood itself.

So, if an association of portable sawyers got together and bought an insurance policy for their grading stamp the cost of the insurance may be quite cheap per sawyer.  

Just a thought,
Ian