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Underground Root Cellar Construction

Started by OlJarhead, July 27, 2011, 08:39:59 PM

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OlJarhead

Quote from: Farmboy on July 29, 2011, 02:28:27 PM
I was speaking with a friend of mine from Sweden.  He told me that all of theirs are built out of stone with mortar.  Not sure if your site would provide you with the materials for this, but it may be worth considering.  You likely wouldn't need to bring in too much mortar to complete your project.

I do have a lot of rock on the property (granite mostly I think)...but I know nothing of mortaring a wall together (though I wouldn't mind learning).

It is appealing to me anyway.
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OlJarhead

http://floydcountyinview.com/rcconstruction.html
30+ years?  His root cellar is smaller then what I'm planning (and have dig already) but it encourages me to stick to my plans.
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OlJarhead


Looking towards the root cellar.


Standing in and looking out of the hole.

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laffs

 
the old ones i see in the woods where i hunt were made with stone. tapered from the bottom to the top. the taper, i was told served two purposes. 1. they could use the taper rocks as staging to pot up the higher rocks. 2.it kept the soil away from the inner wall.

you could mortar or plaster the inner wall. id pour the roof, build a form and use rebar. crushed stone or sand on the floor.

thats just the hippie in me talking , you do as you want
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I ended up going with a concrete septic tank that was new but had a defect in it and would never be used for sewage purposes. After much dust and cursing I had a door cut in the wall and was the fastest way to get one that will last many lifetimes.

OlJarhead

I'm starting to shape up my plan with some modifications (thanks to a conversation with a fellow forum member a week ago or so).

My plan is to use RR Ties as posts and to frame between them with 2x6's, then cover the walls (exterior) with either milled and treated pine or PT ply -- still deciding there.  The top plate on the walls will be RR Ties also.  The ties will be sunk 12-18" down below grade and possibly concreted in place or set on ties (still thinking).

The roof will be framed with a center beam to added support and min 8" logs milled to 8" depth on two sides but left round on the others (basically a two sided cant).  Above those will be 2x's nailed to the log beams.

All of this will be covered in 60 mil plastic to drains around the outside before back-filling.  During back-filling we will try to ensure drain rock is placed between wall and dirt.

Two vents will be installed.  One vent will be installed near the ceiling while the other will be close to the floor.  Both will have screens and be fitted with 180 degree bends above ground to stop snow/rain from entering via the vents.  Each vent will have a wood 'flap' valve to allow them to be shut off in very high or very low temperatures.

The 'airlock' room will be slightly smaller but perhaps large enough to allow storage of things separate from the main cellar that don't need as well regulated temperatures and humidity.  I'm thinking 6 feet deep by 8 feet wide.

In front of the 'air lock' room I'm thinking of enclosing a 6'x6' space and running stairs out from it to ground level with typical sloped cellar doors above.

This will give me an outer set of doors I can lock, and two inner doors.

I expect with it being 10 feet down at the floor with 2 feet of ground cover the temperature should remain very constant year round :)

Wish me luck!
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routestep

My brother just got a root cellar approved by the building inspector but he hasn't started digging yet.

10 by 12 by 8ft tall.

12 in block, groot down every other hole with #5 rebar

Curved ceiling poured concrete ( 7 inches thick at the centerline) with rebar both directions (#7 I think !)

Back fill with 3 feet of dirt overhead

Two 6 inch air vents through the ceiling.

I think he could use it as a bomb shelter the way it was engineered.

Not sure just when the digging starts, he spends half the day looking at weather radar on his new phone device.

lynches lumber


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SwampDonkey

Being as I'm in potato country, there were root cellars all through the country until all the new potato shed construction was becoming above ground in the 1980's. They were all cement walled and floors and it was very cool in the summer. But for bulk storage they needed to strap wood to the walls for air flow and it also kept potatoes from freezing near frost pockets where the walls where near the surface of the earthen banks. Like any living thing, root crops respire and that makes heat. Most sheds only needed a heat source near the doors of the buildings, usually wood and sometimes something like a salamander or what was called a silent glow stove that burned stove oil and sounded like a jet engine. I don't know where the silent came into it. My father used wood and then the stove was used when the doors where opened for loading trucks because often times the sheds where pretty stuffed with taters up to within 20 feet of the doors. ;)


An old trick in the spring time, April in these parts, was to use the front end loader and scoop up some snow from a big old snow drift and place a pile of it at the entry of the sheds, but where the melt water has a place to drain away. I know one old farmer that still does this in his above ground sheds, as he grows seed potatoes and you can't put sprout inhibitor on seed. It's like a free air cooling system. In ice houses they used river ice and ice from the north country up here, and I assume Michigan to, was shipped by boats for far and wide. It was a big industry. Anyway, the ice was layered with sawdust and it kept pretty good until mid summer. These shacks were also in the side of a earthen bank. My grandfather hauled ice from the river until the 50's and for folks all over the area, as did others.

I've enjoyed reading your thread.
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Thehardway

It sounds to me like there are several different ideas or theories as to what a root cellar is.  My grandparents had what they called a "root cellar" in their basement,  a home which my grandfather constructed in the 1950's.  It was no different than the rest of the basement other than they never poured the floor.  This was to provide humidity and cooling through evaporation.

Some of what is described here sounds like what we call ice houses.  All concrete or stone.  Ice blocks were cut from the river in winter and put in the ice house.  Sawdust was often put on the concrete floor to insulate the ice from the floor and make it last longer.

There is a root cellar at my current home. It was made of 8" block and has a gravel floor and a wood roof.  The roof is not covered with soil, instead a shed was built on top.  3 Sides are bermed. It has concrete shelves for vegetable storage 

I would not use edpm in a root cellar as it needs to breathe well. The evaporation of moisture from the earth, condensation evaporation from the masonry walls etc. provides extra cooling and keeps the humidity levels up. If the space is too tight and does not breathe well your food will rot.

I would make a vote for a slip formed stone/mortar structure.  Slip forming is not difficult.  Make a 2 sided box the width you desire the thickness of you walls to be. and about 2' high  I would go with about 18" wide. You then you place mortar in it, set stones in the mortar fitting the stone together in the bottom as close as possible like a puzzle, more mortar, more stone, more or less fitting the stone in the mortar as close as possible and using the form as your vertical guide to contain the stone and mortar. after you have the 2 ' filled in, you let it set up overnight and the following day you raise the forms and go up another 2' in the same manner until you have acheived the height desired.  This is pretty basic and provided you keep your mortar mixed properly and your stones fairly clean it will provide a very durable wall.  Use a tamped earthen floor and  this would make a very traditional root cellar.

Another method is called ferrocement.  You form the stucture in an arch with light wood. Over this you place chicken wire.  Cover the chicken wire with a layer of cement troweled on. Put more chicken wire over this while wet so it embeds. allow it to dry, repeat until you have several thicknesses built up to the desired strength.  once it has hardened thoroughly (20 days) you can remove the light wood frame. The inside is then plastered with a lime based mortar and you are all set.  Ferro cement arches are extremely strong.  they do not have to be as thick as what you might think. The strength is in the shape, uniform loading, and the way cement and steel bond together.  They actually made concrete ships in this manner.  They were thin enough to be light in the water but strong enough to hold a considerable payload and the pressure of the water.


Just a thought.  Good luck with your project.
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OlJarhead

Quote from: lynches lumber on September 01, 2011, 03:39:02 PM
oljarhead_ any updates?

Sorry no.

I've been working on various other projects (interior paneling, floors, kitchen, pump etc) and haven't had a chance to get back to the root cellar.  I plan to do the root cellar in the spring but for now it's just a big hole :)
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den

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OlJarhead

Interesting stuff.  Thanks guys.

I'm torn between Railroad Tie posts and log beams (or tie beams) and concrete as well as 2x framing but still unsure which way I'm going to go.

Been working on the cabin too much lately to get back to this...the hole is dug though :)
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edkemper

Jarhead,

I've come late to this conversation but may have something to add.

Rebar.

Log walls with log roof sitting on top of the walls. Rebar pin the roof logs to the wall logs. You can drill the logs, but make the holes 1/8th" smaller than the rebar. Then put a few layers of plastic on top. Ain't going anywhere.
Old Man

OlJarhead

Quote from: edkemper on November 01, 2011, 06:29:44 PM
Jarhead,

I've come late to this conversation but may have something to add.

Rebar.

Log walls with log roof sitting on top of the walls. Rebar pin the roof logs to the wall logs. You can drill the logs, but make the holes 1/8th" smaller than the rebar. Then put a few layers of plastic on top. Ain't going anywhere.

Thanks!  I'm seriously thinking of using RR Ties to frame the walls and then logs on top.  Was thinking of 12" galvy spikes to hold it together but Rebar would work too.

This spring will be the time when I have to settle and make it happen :)
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Bandmill Bandit

Hey Jarhead

i think we may have talked on the phone about this but may have been some one else that was doing the same thing.

We built one into a hill side for my dad about 25 years ago.

We used 12 inches of 2 inch washed drain rock as a base with good pine 3 by 12 "bull pen rails" as footing. we sprayed those with a wood preservative 5 or 6 coats and then used 2x8 PT pine on 12 inch centers with 3/4 inch PT plywood outside sheeting that ran down to the bottom of the 3"x12". we insulated to 6 foot below grade and lined with 3/8 spruce plywood. bottom 18 inches is not insulated or lined. We used 3/8 rebar as big nails for joinery at base and roof line. Cut to needed length and the pre drilled the holes to put them in place.

3 rooms, front room is air lock and storage for containers used in the cellar and measures 4'X16' the 2 back rooms measure 8' by 8' (outside). One side is used for root veggies and such while the other side is used for canned preserves, ciders/juices, and wines. Roof is railroad ties set on edge with PT 1/2 inch ply wood on top and inside ceiling 3 sides and top of structure were  wrapped in black plastic and then backfilled with a top side over burden that is settled to about 2.5 feet now. Vents are 4 and 6 inch PVC pipe with adjustable vent doors.

Railroad tie retaining walls V'ed back at 45 degree angles to give a good working area out side the entry door with a good 12 inch deep 3/4 inch road crush apron to park/work on.   







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OlJarhead

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on November 05, 2011, 11:33:15 AM
Hey Jarhead

i think we may have talked on the phone about this but may have been some one else that was doing the same thing.

We built one into a hill side for my dad about 25 years ago.

We used 12 inches of 2 inch washed drain rock as a base with good pine 3 by 12 "bull pen rails" as footing. we sprayed those with a wood preservative 5 or 6 coats and then used 2x8 PT pine on 12 inch centers with 3/4 inch PT plywood outside sheeting that ran down to the bottom of the 3"x12". we insulated to 6 foot below grade and lined with 3/8 spruce plywood. bottom 18 inches is not insulated or lined. We used 3/8 rebar as big nails for joinery at base and roof line. Cut to needed length and the pre drilled the holes to put them in place.

3 rooms, front room is air lock and storage for containers used in the cellar and measures 4'X16' the 2 back rooms measure 8' by 8' (outside). One side is used for root veggies and such while the other side is used for canned preserves, ciders/juices, and wines. Roof is railroad ties set on edge with PT 1/2 inch ply wood on top and inside ceiling 3 sides and top of structure were  wrapped in black plastic and then backfilled with a top side over burden that is settled to about 2.5 feet now. Vents are 4 and 6 inch PVC pipe with adjustable vent doors.

Railroad tie retaining walls V'ed back at 45 degree angles to give a good working area out side the entry door with a good 12 inch deep 3/4 inch road crush apron to park/work on.   

We did!  And thanks :)  You were the one that convinced me that I was on the right track but I got busy with other parts of the project.  Most likely I'm going to build a variation of your root cellar though with this post I see a couple things I missed on the phone with you.

Thanks again because it's likely mine will be very similar!
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OlJarhead

The saga continues.

A recent discussion with a neighbor made me think that a combination of the ideas presented here and elsewhere might work very well:

Cinder block and concrete walls, heavy timber roof construction covered in 60 mil plastic.

Due to the location there is NO WAY a concrete truck can get in and carting tons of concrete bags is also out of the question (my 1/2 ton truck could perhaps handle a fair amount in one trip on a smooth hiway but my driveway with it's 16% grades etc isn't likely to make it as easy as that!

A neighbor has a mixer though, and with some serious effort and lots of bags of concrete we could pour a foundation, stick rebar in it (to fix the blocks in place) and then begin stacking blocks on top of the foundation (once it sets) and then fill them afterwards with concrete.

This reduces the overall concrete needed to make the walls yet still makes a pretty solid and strong wall to support the heavy roof.

Then we put 10" logs on top of the walls every 2' or less (maybe every 12" but I think that might be overkill (still looking for load bearing info) and drop a 2x6 lid on top of that from my mill.  Finally after putting in vents and doing a little concrete work around the log ends to keep them in place (also use rebar for that through the log and into the concrete walls) we can cover with 60 mil plastic to ensure it stays dry.

I'll put in drain rock on the outside of the footings and french cesspits for added drainage to help keep the water out.

The 'airlock' or 'dry' room will get a concrete floor also while the root cellar remains a dirt floor.

Then when all is done I'll build a cinderblock stairwell to the surface and build a 'garden shed' right on top of the stairwell to provide cover for it so it doesn't build up snow and rainwater and adds a little security.

Thoughts?
Thanks
Erik
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jueston

sounds like a well thought out plan, and like one that balances the difficulty of getting materials in with the need for strength.

i really like the idea of the garden shed over the access door, makes it all seem very secretive....

OlJarhead

Out of sight, out of mind ;)

But it also helps keep it cooler in the summer by insulating it a bit more from the summer heat as well as solving the problem of keeping out the winter snow or spring rain.

Also solved the the problem if how to get enough headroom in the stairwell down to the 1st room (Dry room).

Once the orchard is in and producing (4 to 5 years after putting the trees in) it will provide a good place to store excess fruit and if we ever start farming then a place to store root crops as well as dry goods (wheat etc) that we might want to store for long periods.

For me, a farm without a root cellar is like, well, not a very good farm! :P
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ljmathias

Wow, talk about overbuilt!  Tell us the truth, now: this is really a bomb shelter/safe room in case of some natural or man-made disaster.   :D

Your plan will work fine but I don't envy your back pains- lifting concrete up to pour in the blocks will be a killer or do you have a FEL to help with that?  Way I addressed this when forming up the blocks for the raised slab I built was to use the bucket of the FEL as my mixing trough: pour in 2-3 bags of sackcrete, add water, mix with a hoe, and then carry it to the wall where I could easily shovel it in and pack it down.  Don't skip the packing down part- big air bubbles can form.

Are you going to put membrane seal on the outside of the block walls to keep moisture out?  Since you're going to all this trouble, why not go that extra step and make it dry as well as secure?  I understand the new sealants are pretty good...

Lj
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OlJarhead

Overbuilt?

I really have no idea what I'm doing LOL which is why the posts of course.

I planned on building the whole thing out of wood but started to shy away from doing so for various reasons and because of the location I can't just have someone pour it with a concrete truck and pumper truck so this was an attempt at a compromise.

And no, not a bomb shelter etc, just a root cellar.

I'm putting in a small orchard but hope some day to farm the land and so the root cellar would be vital for an off-grid farm.
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beenthere

As you are off in the forest, it should be a good safe place for protection from a forest fire.
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