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Releving tension in soft woods.

Started by losttheplot, July 25, 2011, 07:48:01 PM

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Jim_Rogers

Quote from: losttheplot on July 26, 2011, 11:14:57 PM
The boards are going to be used for siding, on the outside of a small timber/stick framed shop I am building.Also for ship lap cladding on the inside walls and ceiling, as well as rustic flooring.




I hope this doesn't upset you, but whoever put that boring machine together, the last time it was apart, but it together backwards. :o

The sliding carriage and the gear works go on the side towards the operator and the seat.

To change it you would have to undo the four mounting bolts that hold the tower to the seat and turn it around. The straight vertical side of the tower goes towards the operator seat, so you can see any marks made on the slide while you're boring holes.

Other than that, great looking frame.....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

losttheplot

Trust you to notice my mistake  ::)

By the time I noticed, I was having too much fun boring holes.
It makes such a lovely sound as it turns that 2 inch bit .

I was going to change it.......... but it kept getting put off and now the mortices all done.

Could not have done the frame with out all the help from the forum smiley_clapping
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

losttheplot

I cut some 2x4's today.

I used the methods suggested.
I made an 8x8" cant  and edged the side to make 2x8's and a 4 x 8, then split them.
The 2x8's curved towards the bark as I cut them in half.





And I made an 8 x 12" cant and sliced it through, rotating it 180 degrees a few times.
Its tough to get the heart in the center with these egg shaped logs.



All in all an enjoyable time with the mill  :)

Some of them moved around, over all I think they came out better than what you would get from the HD on a Sunday evening.


DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

Banjo picker

There is just something nice about not having to go to the store for lumber.... :)  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Brucer

When I'm doing boxed-heart timbers I level the log so the physical center is parallel to the bed. When I want to saw Free of Heart Center timbers, I turn the log on the bed so the plane of the sweep is parallel to the bed. Then I level the log by setting the height of the pith equal at both tends. Finally, I draw a horizontal crayon line across the "driver's end" of the log to remind me which plane the sweep is in.

I only do this in the one plane, as the pith will be wandering back and forth in the other plane.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

losttheplot

Would you center this one where the green cross is, cut an 8x8 out of it and expect it to stay reasonably straight?
There is no noticeable sweep to the log.
It is 12ft long.



I appreciate  everyone taking time to answer my questions.
Thanks.
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

bandmiller2

Prehaps I'am a crude old dude but folks pound their heads agenst the wall trying to get precision product from less than precision raw material.I cluster cut 2x4 like Majic the ones that really bend are cut for braces and blocking the rest put up as I best can.Part of the charm is the personality of the pieces and the fact their not perfect. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

paul case

what frank says plus i have not heard of too many projects that dont call for a lot of short pieces when it comes to using 2x4's. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Tom

See that Heart Check in the middle of the log?  It is Usually horizontally aligned to what would be the sweep of the log.  Many sawyers place that at a 45° angle when cutting a timber so that it reaches into the corners instead of breaking out of the sides.

When cutting boards, I keep it like you have it so that the crack/pith remains in fewer boards and the boards are all of the same "type" of wood.  The wood above and below that crack is where you find most of the reaction wood.

paul case

tom,
are you saying that the heart check is usually aligned with the tension in a log if any, and that should be a deciding factor in log breakdown? making it on a 45 degree would be contrary to what i usually do. i try to contain the check in as few boards as possible by placing it horizontal with the bed for the first cut and then turn 90 degrees at a time and on the last slab side saw thru and thru until it is all cut up. just my theory. i had never noticed that the heart check did or didnt align itself with tension or sweep in a log.  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Tom

I was never told this, I figured it out on my own since I saw as you do.   When putting a log on the bed to define the width of the boards, I usually would first orient the log such that the "hump" was on the entry side of the log and the saddle on the output side.  This allowed easier clamping on the Baker since it dogged the log to the entry side.  I did just the opposite with the LT40 and kept the saddle to the right.   I then usually turned it 90° to cut just get enough flat and clearance to cut the other "side slab" and begin getting my cant defined.  After that I began to work seriously on the hump and ears.

Because I was so concerned with the sweep of the log and the heart check I was paying attention to both of them at the same time.  I noticed that the Heart Check most always followed, and was horizontal with, the sweep of the log.   When I finally realized this, it made it easier to orient a to the sweep, or even the lean, by looking at the heart check, even though the log looked straight.  You can spot the heart check on the log ramp several logs ahead of sawing it even if you can't see the rest of the log.

Some logs have "Y" shaped checks and some have "+" shaped checks. That is when I pay special attention to the sweep and  growth ring patterns to orient the log.

I don't saw with the heart check at a 45° angle as a rule.  As a matter of fact, I hardly ever do.   But, there are Grade Sawyers on this forum who do, saying it is easier to keep the check in the side of the board to be able to trim it to its widest size.   Those who do this are usually cutting to a target in the center of the log that allows it to be a timber (railroad tie).  By default, this Tie will have the check running at a 45° angle which allows the tie to have more split free surfaces since the distance from corner to corner is greater than from side to side.   

Using this knowledge, one who is creating timbers can use it to their advantage to create large timbers from smaller logs.   It also allows the direction of log movement to be anticipated.   I would think that a timber cut at a 45° angle from the heart check would be more prone to twist, and one cut at 90° to the heart check would b more prone to bend in the direction of one of the flat surfaces.  Whether we think one way is better than the other would depend on its use.  Those who do timber framing would know best which would be easiest to work and may even find that one works better in one application than the other, when "straight" might not be an issue.

It's just an observance of mine that has led to an opinion.



Jim_Rogers

When I saw a log out that has a heart/pith check, I usually make that go from board edge to board edge. If you sawed it the other way then every board may have a split in it on that end.

I would want the defect (the pith/hearth check) all in one board or if we were lucky between two boards.

So as his log is pictured the top is a edge face, and the bottom is an edge face. Right and left are board faces.

I think this is what you're saying, Tom. But if not please educate us all.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

customsawyer

What Tom is refering to is grade sawing of hard wood which is a different application then what is taking place in this thread. When you are grade sawing you want the check at a 45 so that you can edge each board and remove the split with the edger. When you are sawing all the same size boards out of a log then what Tom is saying applies.  IMHO
When you are grade sawing hardwood it is random width in most cases so all you have to do is keep turning the log/cant and keep the check at the edge of a board and you can trim it off with the edger and have a better grade of lumber.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Magicman

This is a very good discussion not only on tension but also addressing other log defects that must be contended with.

As customesawyer pointed out, it all depends upon the product that you are producing.  If you are producing lumber to sell, or if you are custom sawing for a customer.  In the latter case, you have to produce what the customer wants.

This latter case is where I saw.  As a general rule, my customers want the widest boards possible from each log.  That means that the heart check must be oriented to disappear in one or two boards as Jim previously described.



Oriented to open the first face.



Oriented to open the second face.



The third face has been opened.



Opening the fourth face.



The heart check disappears in two boards.



What the two defective boards looked like.  Remarkably, the other side of these boards were clear of defects.

The above customer wanted all 1"X12"s, and this sawing technique yielded what he wanted.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dodgy Loner

Magicman's pictorial describes how I would typically saw a hardwood log with a heart check. As he pointed out, if you are sawing for maximum width (as I usually am), this is the best method to reduce the effect of the split while maximizing your wide lumber. If you are sawing for grade, on the other hand, orienting the split at 45o is usually the way to go, because the width of the boards and the orientation of the grain are not the primary concerns.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Brucer

Quote from: losttheplot on July 28, 2011, 02:36:50 AM
Would you center this one where the green cross is, cut an 8x8 out of it and expect it to stay reasonably straight?
There is no noticeable sweep to the log.

I don't often see a straight Douglas-Fir with the center offset that much. When I do, it is usually at the butt end only.

It's rare to have D-Fir 8x8 move very much. If I were given a log like that to saw, I would sawn an 8x10, with the 10" dimension going from left to right. If the timber remained straight I'd take an inch off each side. If it move a lot I would saw one side straight and then the opposite side.

What Tom is referring to as a "heart check" would be called "shake" in BC. It's usually caused by wind. There is no guarantee that it will remain parallel down the length of the timber. I recently sawed a 26 inch log that a customer brought in. It had some heart shake at one end similar to what you show. Nothing was visible at the other end. But the shake spiraled through the log turning 90 degrees in 16' before fading away just at the other end. Not only did it spiral, it also moved off center.

It's very common to see other cracks opening up inside the log, all associated with shake. When I see something that small, I try to keep it inside the timber, rather than sawing smaller pieces out of the log.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

customsawyer

What we call shake down here is a crack  between two or more growth rings. It is more of a problem in Cypress and hemlock than in the hardwoods.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

beenthere

custromsawyer
You are correct with the "shake" and Tom with the "heart check". Some people confuse it, and call heart check by the name of "wind shake". Hasn't anything to do with wind and more to do with growth stress building in the tree as it grows.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

Correct.  Shake follows the growth rings.  Check splits across the growth rings.



Shake.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

cutterboy

Magic, I just love it when you show us pictures to make a point. It's easier for me to understand something when I can see it.  Thank you.
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Brucer

The Canadian Softwood Lumber Grading manual identifies two kinds of shake -- "ring shake" is a split between growth rings. "radial" or "star" shake is a split across the rings. Star shake is not the same as end checking or checks caused by drying -- it occurs while the tree is growing. This is probably one of those "local terminology" things.

Several professional log buyers in BC have told me that shake in Douglas-Fir and Western Larch is mainly caused by continuous exposure to wind. I know from bitter experience that there are certain areas in this region that produce 100% wind-shook (?) D-Firs.

D-Fir and Larch are the tallest trees in the interior forests. They don't like shade and tower above the other species. This makes for very long trunks that flex a lot in the wind. I suspect that's the reason so much shake is found in windy areas.




Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

ljmathias

Just an observation of the value of the forum and staying up to date- this topic has come up multiple times in different context each time.  That helps you see how one piece of information can be used in different ways: Tom's discussion of aligning the check at 45 vs 90 degrees is a good example.  My memory (such as it isvv :D ) had me thinking that the 45 orientation was good for sawing everything- not true and glad to have the clarification. 

The second part of the observation has to do with the combination of explanation and pictures, and part of the reason we love pictures so much here is because that's where the information becomes real.  Someone can describe something to me and I mostly understand but show me a picture or two, and wham! It's real!  Of course, you only learn how to apply the knowledge by doing- the hands-on part with all the trial and error that comes with it makes the information into application, and that's what we're all looking for.

Sorry, guess the teacher in me just won't die completely...  :)

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

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