Need an Axe

[Scott]

 Hi there, I'm looking to buy a new double bitted axe. i've looked around the net and saw some pretty nice lokking axes but i'm not sure on thier quality. I've come across collins, plumb, snow & neally, peavy, union, barco, olympia, and vaughan. i know collins and plumb used to be good names, are they still good or have they gone downhill? Thanks alot.

[SasquatchMan]

Hey Scott, as a Canuck, you have access to the fabulous axes from Lee Valley - Iltis makes a double bit axe that looks like a real beaut - their forging is really nice, and the bits are thin and strong.  about $100 bucks I think.

LV also sell the Gransfors axes, but I believe the double bit Granfors axe is more for throwing...and it's super expensive.

[Stan]

Vaughn was the standard hammer for carpenter's when I was one, in CA.  :-/

[Scott]

 Thanks Sasquatch, the Iltis is just what I was looking for. I've herd of thier good quality but i never knew they made a double bitt.  I like the nice wide blades on them. Chances are i'll buy one soon. I looked at the gansfors axes but like you said they were more of a throwing style.
 Stan, when i looked at the vaughan axes i got the impression that they were poor quality, i'll have to take another look.

[Swede]

40 years ago, a man in this village hit his own ear (just one of them i think) with an axe.   :D :D :D
It must have been a double one or how could he else do that trick successfull?

[Stan]

Scott, that is gettin' close to 40 years ago, I can't be held responsible for what happened since then. The hammers still look good, but nobody buys them any more. Everything is staples now.  

[qatanlison]

Scott, before you do something you'll regret, buying a new double bit that is, check out the old ones at ebay.

I've been falling and bucking with axes since the mid 1990 and tried every axe there is to try. My favorite for falling is a Kelly axe, made in Charleston in the 30'. I also pack a Kelly VULCAN, Mann Knot Klipper, Kelly Perfect and so on - and all was bought through ebay. These old ones has gone for around 10$ and compared to new ones the quality in the steel and forging is only to be found in Gränsfors bruks axes but at 100$+...  I also make my own handles, as double-bit ones are not to be had in my country... And double-bit is the way to go. I could talk all day about how to sharpen it, hang it, how to make the perfect handle - its dimensions and on and on...
Please let me know what you get and I'll help you out dressing it to be a winner!

[Scott]

 Qatalilson, most of the kelly axes I see on ebay or in really rogh shape :-/, there is the occasional good one on there. Theres also a really nice Norlund head on there right now that I wouldn't mind buying. Chances are i'll end up going with the Iltis If you think the Iltis is a bad move please tell me, but from my understanding theyre a really good axe. I look forward to getting advise on how to set my axe up perfect.
 Swede, I herd of a guy close to here who was splitting firewood in his backyard with a double bitted axe. anyway when he went to swing the axe but it hit a clothes line, bounced back and hit him in the head but he was ok. Wasn't the smartest guy I guess.

[SasquatchMan]

qat, you're right about the quality of so so many tools these days... it's like forging is a lost art.  The Gransfors axes are of course a throwback in terms of quality - they are great, but $$$.   These iltis units are much more of a mass produced thing, but they have a pretty good steel in them - as it says in the ad line - the bit is literally only 1/4" thick 2" behind the edge.  

Scott - you can buy an iltis from Lee Valley, and use it for 3 months, and then return it if you don't like it.  Their return policy is very friendly, and it can be so because most of their stuff is as good as they say it is.

[qatanlison]

About the ebay axes, look for the ones with bad logos and stamps, they're worth nothing for the collectors... The ones I've bought sure wasn't mint, but with some filing and grinding they've come out looking good I think. Last winter I split some frozen and sandy old pine, after one cord the Knot Klipper still shaved hair from my under-arm.
About the Iltis, 1/4" wide 2" from the bit sounds good, if it runs on a 5 degrees angle and then to a 10 degrees angle 1" from the bit. The angles is what counts, I have an axe that run 10 degrees from the eye-bulge all the way to the bit, guess if that one eats into the wood. The race-axes for instance, are 1" across the eye and runs at a constant angle down to the bit and thus are ridiculously sharp - and thin. You can check out my axes on http://home.swipnet.se/qatanlison/axes.htm they are described fron top to bottom (in swedish)


/ola

[Stan]

I'd be afraid to shave my underarm, after splittin' firewood with an axe. And it wouldn't be because I might cut myself.  

[Stephen_Wiley]

qatanlison,

Looked at your site, but I have to confess I don't know Swedish about the only phrase I may have picked up on was:

"Min favorit för kapning." which I took to mean  "My favorite for cutting"  is that close for interpretation?

I liked your axes, have you altered your double bit file angles?

[qatanlison]

Stephen, I just wanted you to know which models I have but I give you a translation:
The first, The VULCAN, is my favourite for splitting heavy, knotty wood.
The PERFECT, I use for knocking wedges, splitting and falling.
The Tuatahi is for use only in knot-free wood, and then only for severing the fibres, falling and bucking that is...
Knot Klipper is used for everything, it has the best quality steel, very hard tempered and a bit lighter than the others. I've hung it with an extremely thin tapered handle to store the most of the energy when choppng - also it preserves your hands...
And finally, my favourite, the Kelly western pattern, used only for falling, bucking and limbing. With its shorter handle its a dream to use when stuck in the limbs...

I've probably altered every angle there is. The ax from the factory was by no means ready for use. What I do first is to thin the bit some 1 1/2" back with a bastard file (for steel) and make it fit my needs - will I use it for falling, splitting and so on. The handle is the most important thing on the axe. Choosing the right hickory is very important. Look for the straight grained second growth ones, fibres parallell to the bits direction. No heart-wood should be present, the dark red/brown often seen in cheap junk handles. The next thing to check is the annual-rings, not more than 17 rings per inch of radius is acceptable. Also most handles you by are way to thick. The old-timers used handles 0.75" thick and 1.19" wide, compare that to most handles found in the stores today... So start paper it down and you will be amazed how nice and well balanced the axe will become. And don't worry, it wont break as long as you hit with the bit and not the handle...

Good luck, and please feel free to ask away if there is anything more you want to know about. I will have opinions, ideas and explanations on every detail on the ax...

Oh, yeah, the angles I use on my falling axes are: 10 on the bulge of the eye. 5-7 on the mid-hollow. 15degrees 1/2" from cutting edge and 20-25 1/16" from the cutting edge. I usually do this to my splitting ones to, as the steel in those are so good they don't seem to mind...


/Ola

[SwampDonkey]

Talking about axes.

My uncle was really hard on axes and handles. Those hickory handles that come on axes in the hardware store wouldn't last through the first cord of stove wood choppin. He always prefered handles from ironwood, they would last the longest. I prefer sugar maple handles and I cut my own handles with an axe. I don't split much wood with an axe, have a woodsplitter. But one trip my grandfather took to the states to visit relatives, he picked up an axe down there. It was made in Canada and he thought it would be a good axe. Well my uncle used that axe on a cold february morning to split some stove wood and he struck a block of beech twice. That was all he got to use it, because the metal on the blade was so brittle it broke up in 3 peices. It was made from white metal, pretty brittle stuff.

Quality isn't always in a label  :D

[Sawyerfortyish]

qat you mention the grain in the handle. I just bought a Tuatahi axe and the handle that they (Baileys)sent me was rough and I beleive the grain is going the wrong way.So I complained and they sent another but same thing. I believe the handle in an axe should have the flat sawed surface on the sides and you should be looking at the quarter sawed edge when you have the axe in hand ready to swing. Does that sound right? Just like putting a handle in a cant hook. If the grain is going the wrong way it wont last long.

[qatanlison]

Sawyer40, I'm not that familiar with the terms of log-cutting, but if you mean that the annual-rings should run in the same direction as the bit/bits, you're right, that's the ideal and if I understand quarter-sawing right, each and every blank should be sawed perpendicular to the rings? Now, while this is the ideal, it's not as important as the fibres are straight throughout the whole handle, and that only sapwood is present, don't use the more brittle heartwood, unless for display...
I also am a proud owner of a tuatahi and that handle was quite crooked. I didn't have the possibility to get a new one, so I made one. Straight, to get the most accuracy out of the axe, hate those curved ones for single bits...
Which one did you buy? How was it ground? The thin "Banana"-style? I actually got the student style as I use mine felling in the woods - don't want to risk that thin edge of a competition ax...

[Sawyerfortyish]

qat I got the double ground or banana style competition axe as I will only use it for that. As for the handle yes I mean the grain going the same way as the bit of the axe. The two handles I got from Baileys the grain runs opposite from the way it should. Not a very strong handle if you ask me and very very poor rough machining. I won't buy anymore handles from them.

[qatanlison]

Sawyer40, check out www.danhicks.ca, seems he knows what he's talking about considering handles...

[Stephen]

"Keeping Warm With an Axe" by D. Cook is a book I recently purchased from www.countrymagazines.com

I have enjoyed using an axe since the age of about 10. My Grandfather gave me my first axe at about 14. I have axes I like to use, and others I love to use, some I just like hanging on the wall. This book explains care, sharpening, hanging handles and tell stories of years past. Lots of great information.

(PS. I'm not trying to sell it, just adding to wealth of information on this great site)

Stephen

[SwampDonkey]

Stephen:

You sound like a lad with the same up bringing as myself. I've had an axe since aged 12 when I used to snare hare and build lean-too's in the bush and build camp fires to boil tea or cook weenies and marshmellows. Used to help grandfather boil sap in the spring time and help split the firewood. I've made a few axe handles myself  from hard maple by widdling them with an axe. I guess I've never looked for books on axe care, but sounds like Cook's book could be useful for newcomers and folks like me that abuse them terribly. (I mean the axes)

[Scott]

 I think I'm going to take Qatanlison's advice and watch for some nice axes on ebay for awhile. I've seen a couple nice sagers, a  kelly perfect double bit,a few collins, a zenith and a 4 lb warren "old faithful" that i liked. I'd like to find either a western patern or one that flares to the top and bottom of the bit like the Iltis style. I'd like to find a 4 lb.

[qatanlison]

4lbs double-bit may take a while to find, just so you know. Other brands with very high quality are Plumb (The choice of Peter McLaren) and Mann - the "warranted" models. I've had a couple of Kelly VULCANs and they've sure proven themselves over and over again. My Mann "Knot Klipper WARRANTED" is the one axe of mine I think has the best steel and temper - it keeps a ridiculously keen and sharp edge hour after hour - and then, of course, my old Kelly and then...

A piece of advice; Don't go for the heavy 4lbs if you're not a very heavy, good chopper who really knows how tho place the blows - 4lbs axe are very often too heavy even for a big guy. I'm 31 years old, 5'11" and 192lbs, have been using axes for bucking and falling for quite some time and quite fit and I do my most effective cutting with a 3+lbs double-bit on a 30" handle. I have two 4lbs double-bits on 35" handles and though they sure make the chips fly - they're slower, cumbersome and takes more power to yield. I also occationally use a 6lbs Tuatahi racing axe which is faster than my 3+lbs double bit mentioned above, but since you don't use this axe in any tree you might suspect knots inside, it doesn't count...

Good luck with whatever ax you get and come back and tell us about it!

/Ola

[Scott]

 Thanks for the advice. I better stay away from a 4 pounder, I'm pretty scrawny :D. The iltis is 2 1/2 lbs do you think that might be too light for falling?

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

Well, I hope you find the right axe to suit your needs.

Don't forget the horse though.

Gee....get up there....gee gee  

You have to talk to your horse ya know, but don't expect him to answer like Mister Ed. His reply will likely be generated from the tail end with a whisper in the wind caused by the strain when yarding your twitch of wood to the yard.  ;)

Don't bust a stitch over it  :D

cheers

[SasquatchMan]

Scott, Kinetic energy is mass x velocity x velocity so a lighter axe swung faster is often gonna get you a bigger hit anyhoo.

[qatanlison]

Scott, it's not all about weight - it's technique. And it's easier to get a good technique with a lighter axe though not TOO light. If you have the possibility, try as many different axes as you can - different weight, handles, models and so on. Chances are that you even in a store will feel which model is right for you. Of course there is physics behind it all, but "feel" is something I yet have to find a formula for. I've bought ax-heads I didn't think I'd like (I bought them for selling) - until I hung them with a good handle and all of a sudden the balance, which I failed to see in only the head, was there.
Kinetic energy is good - but it's "just" energy; A sharper, lighter ax will outcut a dull, heavier with more kinetic energy (swung at the same speed)...
And as most double-bits are about 10" wide, no matter the weight, the heavier blade has a thicker bit and thus need more work to file down to the right angles. There are exceptions though.

/Ola

[SasquatchMan]

The physics of "feel"?  Sounds like a good book for someone to write!

[qatanlison]

...shouldn't be surprised if someone actually tried to come up with something resembling a formula for it; Imagine the array of input variables...

/Ola

P.S.

Scott, one last advice, search for an axe with a bit as straight as possible, the curved ones are not suited for chopping wood.

[Scott]

 What exactly do you mean by curved bit? I thought you were refering to the blade but when i looked at your page with your axes on it most of them had a curved blade. Thanks.

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

3-1/2 pound splitting maul "Gransfors":axe with straight bit, for splitting



Felling and limbing axe, curved double-bit:  One edge ground for felling and the other for limbing.



:D

[SasquatchMan]

That's a splitting axe, but it doesn't look like a maul, or as Gransfors seems to call it, a hammer-poll axe.

[SwampDonkey]

Sasquatch

Its got quite a broad head on it and it has some extra 'cheeks' on its sides. Its a splittin maul. Remember, scale is everything.  

[qatanlison]

Scott, you're right - but I never said my axes were perfect, exept the one from Kelly :D... What I ment was that an axe with a bit too curved is not suitable for chopping.
The point with a bit as straight as possible is that when chopping, bucking or falling that is, you will leave much less subsurface humps of uncut wood between the strokes than you would using an axe with a bit too curved. As you place each stroke, with a straight bit, no gap of uncut wood will be left and thus throw the chip which must be done in order to get deeper into the trunk. Although a bit with a pronounced curvature may penetrate deeper into the wood, it'll bind and the next blow wont throw the chip as it (the chip) is still attached by the fibres not cut by the corners missing on an axe with a half-moon shaped bit. Are you with me? And here's the twist; For splitting wood a bit with a hefty curvature is more effective than the more straight bit of a falling axe, which is pretty much the opposite of what Gränsfors might think, or any axe-maker for that matter... Of all axe-models I've tried, the worst for splitting wood is the wood-splitting maul! There, I've said it and it just might get me into trouble... But I'll prove my point in any challenge, over and over again. ;)

About my axes, I'd say the top one is the only one with bits a bit too curved, and that's my favourite for splitting. The two at the bottom have bits more straight or as straight as possible and still being strong enough. Compare those two with most of the axes found on ebay and you'll see what I mean.

Hope this helped,

/Ola

[SwampDonkey]

Qatanlison:

My uncle has split cords and cords of hardwood for the stove and he always has a straight edged axe. In February and March is the best time to split your wood cut in the previous fall, as the frost is still in it and its still green. One good crack and she's split. If you wait untill the end of the summer to split your wood its not going to be quite so easy. In all woodsmen competitions at our University we always used curved bit axes for felling and bucking competitions, and the chips do fly very efficiently. We've whooped a good many butts, even from Sweden.
   :D  ;D  ;)  :D  

[qatanlison]

I bet you whooped them good, but you'd probably done even better with a more straight edge ;D

Splitting in winter with icy wood doesn't count. The wood would probably split if you just gave it an angry look...

Just so we understand each other, with a straight bit I mean a bit with a curvature that amounts to about 1/4" at top and bottom.

[SwampDonkey]

qatanlison

Yes, real good ;)  

The winter's always best. Why make life more difficult than it has to be? :D

Yup qat, I understood the curvature of the axe you meant. Those are what we use to split with. That maul in the picture up there is for tough knotty and curly blocks. Our axes we've used are not so heavy for the easy splitting stuff. And my uncle always preferred a straight handle, not those curved ones from the shop. Never cared for hickory or oak handles either, they make good firewood though.  :D ;D :D

[SasquatchMan]

Swampdonkey, the maul/axe distinction is not to be confused with the chopping/splitting purpose of any particular tool.  A maul is an axe with a hammer on the back, or poll.  A splitting maul is therefore a oft-times like a sledgehammer, due to, as you mention, thicker cheeks etc of the ordinary splitting axe.

You could theoretically have a maul that wasn't for splitting - granfors Carpenter's axe would count, as the poll is designed for hitting.

Qatan, I tend agree with you on the shape thing - my splitting maul has a very rounded cutting edge, and it splits like hell.  Guess I got lucky.

[SwampDonkey]

Sasquatchman:

No arguement there. ;)

[Scott]

 Wow! A lots gone on here since last night. I'll post a couple pictures of the iltis axe and you can see what you think of them. Personally i like the wide bit style but if its not going o work out very well then it would be good to know.

[SasquatchMan]

Scott, there's enough blade on that Iltis to grind it flat if you wanted...  They look good in person, but I've never hit with one.  Just keep going to Lee Valley and thinking "I sure wish I needed another axe."

[Scott]

 I don't think I could bring myself to file a beautiful axe like that flat :D. The nice thing about Lee Valley is their return policy. I think you have 30 days to try the product out and if you don't like it just send it back for a refund. I don't think I can lose on that one.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah good deal, you should have your wood split by then.

You forgot the closing ']' in your previous post, all we see is the code. ;)

[Scott]

 Thanks SD I probably wouldn't have noticed. I usually use a maul for splitting my firewood up. I planned to use the iltis for everything from falling to limbing to clearing old property lines. I was looking for a good all round axe. Maybe I'll have to look for a couple of different patterns to suit my needs.

[SasquatchMan]

Scott, LV used to have a 3 month return policy... maybe it's been shortened - I know they took a router bit back from a guy who never peeled the urethane coating off... maybe a few too many like that have shortened the policy??? :  I think Santa might have to bring me an Iltis too.

[qatanlison]

Scott, how much is that double-bit?
Judging from the pictures I'd say limbing, swamping and throwing is what the double-bit would be good for and I'd put those bits through some serious filing; They are very thick, even for limbing. But then again, the new drop-forged axes doesn't have the same hardness or holding capabilities for a bit as thin as in the old days. And I'm not being traditional here I just speak of my own experience. I had a new made Snow and Neally double-bit that I filed down to the right thickness for falling/bucking and there's a big difference in the hardness and tempering compared to axes made in the early 1900. So I sold it. If the Iltis wasn't of the "reversible" kind but with a straight upper side I'd say it would be good for any axe-work - those wide reversibles takes some more force to drive through knotty wood. Check out Item number: 3276067092 on ebay some file-work on that one would out-cut that Iltis in every kind of work. Precision wise, you'd probably find that old Kelly to be forged with more care and you could select a really nice handle for it. Also, the steel in new-made axes are actually junk - sure they have enough carbon to be tempered, but the steel is not the best for an edge-tool. Modern axes are hardened to 53-57 HRC, the old ones 59-60+, 'nuff said. The hanging of modern axes tend to suck, with bit not in line with the handle and hickory with fibres running in all directions. So if you buy a new axe, make sure you get an axe with a handle you deserve...

[Scott]

 Qat, the iltis is $100 Canadian. It's quite a bit of money but if the axe is good I don't mind paying for it. Funny how with all our technology no one can make a better axe than the old timers. The axe head on ebay looked good. There was a vulcan and a couple True Tempers on there too. Take a look at this Kelly Perfect and tell me what you think. #3275909025. Is True Temper made by Kelly? Thanks

[qatanlison]

I think 100 CAN is too much for that iltis. I'd go for an oldie.
If you're about to use the axe for splitting/limbing as well as falling/bucking, I'd probalby bye an axe with a stouter bit than the PERFECT on ebay, so that I could leave one of the bits a bit thicker for splitting and file the other down to meet the angles of falling. Chance is that you'll crack it in a knot otherwise. True temper bought Kelly Works in 1947 and from that on added their logo as well as Kelly on the heads.
The Kelly vulcan is some ax. I have three of them and they're all favourite. The vulcan brand is supposed to be hand-made. One of Kelly's higher quality brands.

/Ola

[SasquatchMan]

Ola, that Iltis looks better in real life than it does in the picture - the angle or lens distortion makes it look fatter than it really is.  Scott, it's worth a try - if it's no good, take it back and tell em.

[qatanlison]

I bet it's a fine axe, I just have something against axes that are painted; Makes me think they're covering up for something...
Here's another idea for Scott; Buy one Iltis and one oldie from ebay - make the comparison yourself - It's very hard to judge an axe from a picture as SasquatchMan points out.

/Ola

[SasquatchMan]

All a guy can do is try a few tools - costs a bit of cash, but at the end of the day, you get what you want.

[Scott]

 Hi guys. i was doing some ice fishing last night so i didn't get on to post. I like qatanilson's suggestion to try one of each, i might just do that. It would be nice if Gransfors would start making some of the heavier patterns agian. I think they used to go by GBA didn't they? I see axes by that name on ebay once in awhile and they don't look bad.

[qatanlison]

GBA is short for Gränsfors Bruks AB (Gränsfors Bruks Inc.)
I think in the 40:ies they made some doublebits solely for export to USA. I think they discontinued their American Felling axe, too bad, but I suspect they're up to something new...
GBA is the best axe-maker in the world today and I'm not being partial but, as you point out - they make their axes too small. I've been in contact with them telling them that a bigger model would sell very well, the germans would go crazy for example - and I suspect so would the rest of us... I'm about to help them out, giving them some ideas - there is a lack of knowledge of the bigger ax-patterns here, until now that is...

The ones on ebay you'd want are the ones not beeing ground back too much, 1" or more. A 3.5lbs, stamped 32 (3lbs 2oz) double-bit, should be at least 10" bit to bit and have 4.5+" wide bits. Otherwise it's likely they're too thick at mid hollow and pretty useless. The higher the quality, the slimmer the blade. Also, just because a head is stamped 32, make sure the seller weigh it for you - gives you a hint on how much is left of the original head...

Again, good luck

/Ola

[SasquatchMan]

qat if you can convince Gransfors to make a double bit for felling instead of for throwing, I'm on the list of buyers.  Their axes are great, but like you say, a bit limited in terms of designs.

[qatanlison]

Actually sasquatch, I have some connections, I think they may have some oldies left at the factory. I'd be happy to make some research... Also, there is SAW, also Swedish and who uses the same method for forging (prbably the same steel as well) as GBA, www.wetterlings.com, who I know for a fact still makes some double-bits for falling - not throwing. The only thing against SAW is their poor handles... I'll check it out and come back to you. I'll check it out for myself as well, come to think of it...


Later,

Ola

[Scott]

 Qat, I never knew that there was still a company around today as good as Gransfors, I didn't see any double bits on their site though. It would be nice to see the Western, Michigan and other classic patterns made by GB. I'd also be interested in an oldie if you manage to find some.

[qatanlison]

The double-bits from SAW came to my knowledge after talking to one of the smiths. The make still make but it's all for export to USA/Canada I think. But I'll check it out for you.

/Ola

[Bronco]

I did a little research on axes today and found some Kelly Perfects at www.acehardewareoutlet.com  Is that a good price?  I thought you guys might be interested.

Also found the motherlode on axe info at:

http://www.sctrails.net/Trails/LIBRARY/FSPubs/ax/ax1.pdf

but you need an Acrobat reader.

[BW_Williams]

Welcome to ya, Bronco, have no idea about the axe but like your handle.  I had '68 that I stuffed a 351 Clevland into and traveled all over the PNW.  Wish I had it back.  BWW

[qatanlison]

The ax-info link is by Bernie Weisgerber isn't it? He knows what he's talking about.

About SAW double-bits; All where sold to a store in the Vancouver area, under the name "Black King".
I'm still waiting for a double-bit status report from GBA...


/Ola

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

I see one double bit axe on their site

http://www.gransfors.com/htm_eng/

Click on Products on the left hand side of the page

Then, just click on the image of the axe and it brings up a description.

Maybe you can leave them an email too.

[SasquatchMan]

That's their throwing axe.  Viking attack or what?

[Bronco]

I guess all of those Kelly Perfects are gone from the ace hardware outlet website.  I decided it was a great deal (about half price) and went to order one today and now they're gone.  Oh well.  

I have a question on identifying an old axe head I started working on over the weekend.  The only marking on it is a very small, distinctive and deep "S" that measures 3/8" from top to bottom.  Might just be the marking from a previous owner.

I'm planning to give the axe to a friend after I get the head shined up, sharpened and a new handle hung.

[SwampDonkey]

quote
 "Typically, one blade was sharpened to a finely honed, narrow "felling edge", while the second blade was ground slightly blunter, and used for knots and cutting near the ground where a finely sharpened blade was more likely to be damaged. Today the double-bit axe is used as a Working Axe or as a Throwing Axe for timber sports."
end quote

It has 3 applications, including throwing, which seem to be over-looked. ;) :D

[Scott]

 Qat, think you could get a company name and contact information for me regarding the Vancouver company that got the black nights? I couldn't find anything about them on  Google. Thanks.

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

I recommend starting at Deakin Equipment in Vancouver

http://www.deakin.com/index.cfm?action=search&key_word=axe&startRow=11

They are at the top of my list for forestry supplies.

[qatanlison]

Scott, I'll se what I can dig out...


/O

[Scott]

 Swamp Donkey, ever deal with Marfor?  I think they're in Fredricton.  www.marfor.ca
  One of those Black King axes sold on ebay about 2 weeks ago for $30. I didn't think anything of it at the time,I just figured it was another junk brand  :'(

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

The folks at Marfor are fine to deal with, their on Maple Str on the North Side. BAP, also in F'ton, has flagging and string cheaper. There is some stuff that Marfor doesn't carry, like chaulk boots and replacement spikes, nylon cruise vests, 36 inch wide inkjet plotting paper and other stuff too numerous to mention.  Marfor's stuff is probably comming from Toronto or Vancouver to begin with. Take Viking and Farwest products, they are made in BC, and the wedge prisms are from Oregon.

[Scott]

 There's a Black King double bit and a double bit iltis for sale on Ebay right now. Search "logging axe". The black king is at $40.

[Bronco]

FWIW, I ordered a Kelly Perfect Jersey Pattern (larger single bit) from Barco Tools www.barcotools.com for $44.27 (including shipping).  I recieved the ax yesterday and found the quality to be fairly low.  The handle is made from about 1/2 heartwood with the grain running perpendicular to the head (weak!).  The head is very crudely made, the "bevel" is maybe 1/16" and poorly done.  I might have kept the ax and replaced the handle but, upon inspecting the blade, I found it has an approximatly 1/4" bow which would be tough to work with.  This is not the ax I was expecting.  I'm going to try to return it.

Anyway, the point of my rant is I probably wouldn't pay more than a couple bucks for an axe I couldn't inspect beforehand.  You could probably do a lot better buying an old head off of ebay and just hanging the handle yourself (like a few of you already suggested).

Have a good weekend -  8)

[qatanlison]

Bronco,

Barco bought the rights and dies for the Perfect brand some 10 years ago I think, but as they drop-forge them today I doubt it very much if they've ever used the dies...
I'm sorry for you and the disapointment - for that kind of money you'd get a "real" perfect on ebay and a very good one too...
Good handles are rare today. In a shop you have the possibility to at least choose the least bad and perhaps even find a good one.

Q

[Scott]

 Hey Qat, ever find out who wetterlings made the Black Nights for?
 Bronco, I didn't think those axes would be as bad as you said they were but at the same time I'm not surprised. A good new axe is hard to come by now. If you want a OK new axe for a cheap price you might want to look at collins or council. I think their quality is a bit better. If you want a really good axe go with an ebay axe like Qatanlison said.

[qatanlison]

Scott, no sorry, I haven't found out. It sounded like the person I asked didn't know to whom they were sold.
About Collins, I recently saw some of their sledge hammers and the heads were very rough and the handles of low grade hickory - that said - It might not be applicable on the axes. Doesn't Madsen carry collins axes?

Q

[qatanlison]

Check out ebay number 3282462147...

[secondofangle]

Hi, I hope this topic isn't dead.  I'm not a logger by any stretch, but rather a hobby woodcutter with a woodstove who just LOVEs to fell and limb adn split.   I've used this thread a lot to try to figure out what is the best axe to buy and here are some of my observations so far:

1.)  Collins:  the ones they currently sell in ACE hardware are made in Mexico, and it doesn't even look like they're forged - they look entirely milled, but it doesn't say, so who knows.  I did FIND a Collins with a broken handle in Yellowstone NP this summer and the edge on it was TERRIBLE, but after much filing I have a good edge on it and it will shave hairs.  SUre appears to be harder steel than the junky craftsman one I have.

2.)  I ordered a SAW Wetterling 32" felling axe (hand forged) and she's a beauty.  But the handle is a bit loose and all I've done so far is split some kindling.  The head however is just wonderful with a wonderful edge and the axe overall has a good feel to it.  A bit small however - I like to get some arc on it when swinging so 32 is a bit small for me - but it should be great for limbing.  These SAW axes are quite a bit cheaper than the GBAs - I think they may be underrated, but I don't have a GBA so I can't say.

3.)  I ordered the biggest Snow and Neally they make and it's a bit small too at 30".  But it's also well made and has a good feel and a nice edge.

4.)  I was going to order a Vaughan just to see what it's like but then I was in Sears recently and saw the workmanship on some of their hatchets and hammers - JUST TERRIBLE!

5.)  I have on order an Iltis 35" feller that I have high hopes for and a Council tool 6# 36" that I hope will be good for splitting.  I note that most of the splitting axes (e.g., GBA and Oxhead) have handles under 31", and again I like to get some more ark with a longer handle. 

Oh, and in spite of the negative feedback on here, I ordered from Barco a Jersey pattern 3.5# 36" jsut because I like that head style and I can't find any others except on ebay.

I'll let you guys know my observations on these axes when they arrive.

Why did I order so many?  Because I have more $ than brains, and I figure I'll sell the ones I don't like.

Anyone know anything about the Peavey axes?  There's not much info on the website.

[Jeff]

Welcome there secondofangle.  No, a thread is never dead on the Forestry Forum. You can bring any one of them back up to make new again.  I might suggest since you are on a mission to try many axes that you try to get a hold of one of LogRite tools brand new felling Axes. They have been getting tested in the Pacific Northwest by the kinda guys that really oughta know and are getting very good grades.  You can find a link to LogRite to the left or give a shout at Kevin here the owner of the company. His user name is Neslrite.

[Frank_Pender]

You bet there are good grades as I have the only one on the Left Coast.  Everyone that has tried the fellers ax has been excited.   One fella did not want to return the ax.  He had posession for three weeks.   Kevin hopes to have about a dozen or more out here for the logging conference in the latter part of February. 8) 8) 8)

[secondofangle]

so do I understand that it's tough/impossible to get a hold of one of these new felling axes?  I went to the logrite web-site and I can't seem to find anything on axes, just peaveys and the like....

Thanks for the welcome, it's good to be here!

[Jeff]

You need to contact Kevin direct to get the info on them right now I think.

[secondofangle]

I think in the end Qat is going to be right.  If you just hang in there and buy an old Kelly on e-bay and re-handle it yourself, you'll be quite pleased.  You'll have a tried and true head, little $$ spent, and the satisfaction of having put it together yourself.

The nice thing about nice axes is that you can pass them along to your kids and grandkids....

[Max sawdust]

I think in the end Qat is going to be right.  If you just hang in there and buy an old Kelly on e-bay and re-handle it yourself, you'll be quite pleased.  You'll have a tried and true head, little $$ spent, and the satisfaction of having put it together yourself.

The nice thing about nice axes is that you can pass them along to your kids and grandkids....

This is my opinion too.  Have a friend that checks out farm auctions, antique stores and the like,  He then makes his own handles.  Something about that old steel and the hand turned and carved handle.  And cheap to boot ;D This applies to more than axes. Mauls, draw knifes, even cant hooks. 
quat,
You seem like a great resource of knowledge on this subject thank you for the education

I wonder why new steel is just not quite the same ???  Was it pride in the craftsman, or because people who made the tools actually knew what they were used for.

I respect opinions on this forum and alot of people like the logrite stuff, so I will try one some day soon.  It will take some getting used to a blue cant hook :D
Max

.

[Max sawdust]

Well the Iltis felling axe I got from Lee Valey is a piece of art - well made, and sharp as hell, the blade rings like a crystal goblet when you run your fingers across it.  And boy does she cut.  Nice stampings on the blade too.  I'm very impressed.
The heads on e-bay are going a bit high.  It's hard to get one (even a rusty one with poor markings) for less than $20 with shipping.  And I figure if I pay upwards of $30, by the time I handle it I'll have $40 or so in it, and I'm having a hard time thinking it's not better to just use the Iltis.

They start out cheap under $10, but then at the last minute somebody keeps bidding them up to 15-20.

Ya the ebay stuff can get pricey   I agree the Lee valley stuff
is good.  Keep your eyes open for old steel at rumage sales and old fashion auctions (not ebay auctions) :D :D
Max
Ya know "hey bidder hey bidder" with the good hot dogs and lots of mud 

[WoodSmith]

I want to start making my own handles.
Living on the left coast right up against the ocean I don't find mass quantities of hickory to choose from.
Is there any place online or here on the forum where I would be able to buy good hickory for handles?
Thanks

[secondofangle]

I can sum up my experience in the last 2 months buying every major brand of axe currently available in the US as follows:

The GBA and Wetterling axes are wonderful for those who can afford them - razor sharp from the factory, wonderful workmanship, etc.  Pieces of art.

THe Iltis axes from Lee Valley are high quality, but make sure you hand select your handles - I have one with the grain 90 degrees in the wrong orientation - but Lee Valley, true to policy, is sending me a replacement....

Council and Barco make DECENT axes for $30 or so, but not EXCELLENT ones - at least they're made in USA.  Steel is relatively hard, will tolerate a miss into the concrete (oops!), but you'll have to do a load of filing to get the edge right on them, and it's quite hard to get them sharp enought so shave hairs.  The Council Hudson Bay hatchet with grain leather sheath is a great buy for the money.  The council handles on the long axes are oddly shaped so you were warned.  Councin has a web-site:  counciltool.com

Cooper/Plumb is now made in China and Collins is made in Mexico.  Both of questionable quality.  Before you think of buying a Vaughn, take a look at the workmanship of their hammers in your local Sears store - I bet you don't buy a Vaughn.

I cannot yet comment on Peavey.  Snow and Neally is a solid axe but beware - Qat says the steel isn't up to snuff.

Got my first e-bay head the other day - an old True Temper Red Warrior Kelly Works - for $5 plus shipping.  What a beauty.  Sharpens to a razor edge that only GBA and SAW can beat.  And, you get the satisfaction of putting on your own handle.  I took Qat's advice and put a skinny one on - and sure enough he was right - what a wonderful feel it has to it.  I'll tell you, for under $20 I have a helluva an axe now.

To sum up, just read back through what QAT said in this thread - everything he says is true.  Go for the old bits on e-bay with faint markings that the collectors aren't interested in and you'll be happy.  Quite happy.  I have some more on the way - plumb collins and mann, so I'll comment on those later.

Anyone else use "liquid nails" when re-handling their axes?  So far it's worked wonderfully for me.....also sanding the handles and putting on Linseed Oil - I'm a big fan of that now....

[Bronco]

I wouldn't use Liquid nails for an axe head.

Maybe you've seen this but here is everything you need to know about "hanging" and axe head.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/fspubs/99232823/index.htm

I totally agree with what's been said about buying an old axe head.

Good Luck.

[logwalker]

Just found this axe thread when it popped back up recently. What a great thread. My question: What is the weight range of the heads of chopping/falling axes. I inherited a beautiful 6 pounder with nice lines from my granpa. Is this unusual for a falling bucking axe? He purchased it on a visit to Oregon in 1958. Thanks, LW

[Minnesota_boy]

It takes a lot of muscle to swing a 6 pound axe.  Common here were 3 to 4 pounders.  Even a 4 pound axe gets heavy after the first hour of swing it.

[secondofangle]

Just found this axe thread when it popped back up recently. What a great thread. My question: What is the weight range of the heads of chopping/falling axes. I inherited a beautiful 6 pounder with nice lines from my granpa. Is this unusual for a falling bucking axe? He purchased it on a visit to Oregon in 1958. Thanks, LW

If you scroll abck to page 2 or 3 of this thread, you'll find where Qat talks about this -  his opinion also is that if your're going to be swinging it for more than a little bit, you'll wear out.  Moreover, you'll get more speed and perhaps better chopping with a lighter head.  I have a 6#er and she's unwieldy....

[secondofangle]

I wouldn't use Liquid nails for an axe head.

Maybe you've seen this but here is everything you need to know about "hanging" and axe head.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/fspubs/99232823/index.htm

I totally agree with what's been said about buying an old axe head.

Good Luck.

THanks, that's a good reference. 

I'm just wondering, is there a good reason for his saying that you souldn't use epoxy, etc?  I'm one of those guys who needs a reason for evreything.  I can't tell if he's against it because he's a traditionalist, or because it causes some harm?  The 3 I've hung lately came out GREAT with the liqid nails - and the reference DOES say to use wood swell juice - I think the liquid nails is performing basically the same function....
The only concern I have is if I ever have to rehandle them - might be a real pain getting that handle out with the liquid nails - but nothing my drill and a file can't handle....

[Bronco]

That's the reason not to use any kind of epoxy or glue (messy if you have to remove it).

I've hung three or four axe heads in the manner he describes with no loosening of the head in two years so it works pretty good too.  I've also rehandled several hammer's that I realized were crooked or loose and there is definetly an art to getting a good tight fit.

Good luck.