braces shrunk

purple otter · June 18, 2011, 09:38:02 PM

Hello everyone.I have been reading and learning from you guys for over a year now and I have learned a ton.Last summer and fall I sawed some white oak for a timberframe saw shed.I started to cut the frame but ran out of good weather here in NY. So I brought the 4"x8" brace stock into my basement workshop and made all the braces. All the 45* angles were cut on a slide saw and the tennons cut on the tablesaw so they were perfect. I started back at cutting the frame today and brought the braces up.To my surprise they shrunk 3/16 to 1/4 on the short point. I guess my question is do I re-cut the shoulder or will they expand with the summer humidity? :-\

thanks ,steve

Jim_Rogers · June 19, 2011, 07:57:58 AM

I think you may have to post a picture to show me what you mean by the "short point"....

When we cut brace stock we always cut it over-sized or over thickness by 1/8" so that we have enough stock to make the tenon the correct amount off the layout face and then the correct thickness.

If you're doing 4x8 stock you're probably doing 2" off the layout face and then 2" thick tenons. You should mill your brace stock 4 1/8" thick at the least to allow for shrinkage.

If you have your mortises for these "shrunk" braces done then maybe you may need to re-do them. I can't say for sure until I understand what you mean by the "short point"...

Here is the standard brace end with labels:

Can you either copy this photo and add your "short point" or make up one like it?

Jim Rogers

purple otter · June 19, 2011, 09:29:07 AM

Thanks for the reply Jim.The braces shrunk across the 8" width but since the length did not change the result is that the angle changed.I will probably have to correct them and adjust when I mortice the beams. I have some of the posts cut so I can't change them.I'll try to find a teenager to help me post some pictures.Thanks again

Brad_bb · June 20, 2011, 08:49:18 PM

Wet/green oak brace stock will shrink. I purchased my brace stock ahead of time and allowed it to air dry to get the majority of the shrinkage done before cutting it. In your situation, if you haven't cut the mortises, then fix your braces and adjust your mortises accordingly. I know it's kind of a pain, especially if only half of your braces and mortices need this fix.

witterbound · June 22, 2011, 03:13:34 PM

I'm not sure I understand why you need to recut anything. Are you planning to house your braces? If not, I understand, but I guess I'd then ask why you aren't housing them. If you are housing them, the only thing that you need to do is make your housing a tad shallower on the "short end."

purple otter · June 22, 2011, 08:26:12 PM

The braces are housed and flush on the outside.If I was siding this sawshed you wouldn't ever see the gap but it will be open on all sides.

Jim_Rogers · June 23, 2011, 07:40:53 AM

Quote from: purple otter on June 18, 2011, 09:38:02 PMmy question is do I re-cut the shoulder or will they expand with the summer humidity? :-\

Steve:
I don't think they will expand in the summer humidity.

You should put the corner together first before you trim cut anything. You need to "fit up" the entire corner then maybe even the entire bent first to see (1) if things are out, (2) How much they are out. (3) what is the correct solution. Trimming one thing in one spot may make something else worst in another location.
Understanding the correct solution is very important.

If you can fit things up and then list where and what the problems are then we can suggest solutions to the total picture.

Jim Rogers

frwinks · June 23, 2011, 10:28:14 AM

I've seen bigger gaps in frames in those flashy mags on the newstands :D
Take Jim's advice...don't stress over this just yet...fit up the frame...a lot of things that don't look right right now, might work themselves out once all of the pcs of the puzzle are together. Wood works in mysterious ways sometimes... :D

witterbound · June 23, 2011, 01:42:39 PM

It's a sawshed, not in the center of a living room of a million dollar home. It looks fine. But my standards might be lower than yours.

purple otter · June 23, 2011, 04:02:12 PM

Thanks for the encouragement guys.I am a finish carpenter by trade and this is my first timber frame .I guess I just am a little fussy about tight joints.I think I will pivot the braces to make them tight to the post and adjust the mortise distance on the beams.I will try to post more pictures as things progress,now that I figured out how to post them :D

witterbound · June 23, 2011, 04:16:34 PM

The braces and crown posts in my frame (house) were all pretty tight when we put up the frame. The SYP was about 8 months old, then. In the 2 years since the frame has been up, some of the timbers have checked, twisted, and opened up some once very tight joints. It's a part of timber framing. I've even got a couple of my 12x12 posts that have twised at the bottom to expose gaps between the post and hardwood flooring, when the flooring originally was at least 1/4 inch housed under the post. I always tell folks, "it's not trim, it's timbers and they move."

purple otter · June 23, 2011, 04:23:31 PM

I totally understand the rough look of timber framing .You can see in my pictures that the oak is already checked.I am sure things will continue to move and shrink so I am just trying to start out tight.Thanks for the input.

canopy · June 24, 2011, 08:29:42 PM

I think I will pivot the braces to make them tight to the post and adjust the mortise distance on the beams.

Be extremely careful before doing that because many angles and distances will change, some perhaps unexpectedly. Don't ask me how I know.

When I built the square rule frame in my avatar before raising I noticed some of the pockets were going to be visible like you show. It wasn't shrinkage, but because some of the 4x5 members delivered were cut a little short of that. I was concerned those gaps wouldn't look good. I pivoted one a bit that would show the most. But to be honest I don't even notice it.

Dave Shepard · June 24, 2011, 08:35:41 PM

If you had started with an all green frame, that's what the braces are going to look like when it dries anyway. There is nothing you can trim to make them tight now, as they will then be too short, and there will be a much larger gap on the other end of the brace.

canopy · June 25, 2011, 09:29:02 AM

There is nothing you can trim to make them tight now

I could be wrong, but I inferred the mortises at the plate have not been made yet.

Dave Shepard · June 25, 2011, 09:42:06 AM

If that is the case, then you can change the layout of the plate mortise, and change the angle of the braces. I personally would not change layout, as you would have that brace shrinkage anyway if you had done all the joinery at the same time.

purple otter · June 25, 2011, 02:22:10 PM

Well I decided to adjust! Since none of the tie beams or plates are cut I can still adjust those brace mortices. Each brace will be custom now.I marked the new distance on the shoulder of each brace so I don't confuse myself. So far so good.

routestep · June 26, 2011, 09:17:59 AM

That's not too bad a fit. I have a brace just like that on this barn frame; bent three, brace six. The cross tie in the bent is 12 inches deep and has an intermediate post that it is suppose to sit on. The cross tie has shrunk and developed a curve or crown so that the post is about an inch short. The two end posts are supporting the crosstie completely. I don't think the cross tie will ever settle down on to that intermediate post. That post also has two braces going up to the cross tie that are way short.

I'm recutting the post, making it an inch longer. I'll put it in place , measure the brace distance for that post up to the cross tie brace mortice and cut a new brace or two if necessary. Then pick the bent up off its sill and install the braces.

I have another cross tie in this frame that was a real problem child. It shrank and developed a twist. I had to do some housing adjustments on it.

ballen · June 28, 2011, 05:31:01 PM

Very little of my brace lumber is full dimension so I end up with that gap all the time. I was just going to ask if anyone ever applied square rule to the actual brace by cutting it down a 1/2" at the mortice like we do at every other joint in order to get a match at the mortice.
Thoughts?
Bill