"Live Oak" sawing in MA

[Jim_Rogers]

I think a lot of you southern gentlemen have sawed "live oak" before, but we rarely get a chance to do it up here in the north east.

Recently, as I mentioned in another post here on the FF, I got a call from a fellow who works at a hardwood flooring company, about sawing up some "live oak" pieces for garden bench seats.

Here is an example of what they are making:



And here is one made out of a "live oak" knee:



I have heard several different stories about this stuff, and I'm not completely sure about any of it.
But it seems that in Boston, MA where "Old Ironsides" is parked, or should I say berthed, was a Navy ship yard.
And it seems that they did make or restore ships there during the 1800's. It is my understanding that they would have the "live oak" pieces shipped up from the south to have "on hand" should they need some for building or restoration.

Apparently, sometime around 1915 or so, they changed from wooden war ships to metal ships, possibly earlier as I do remember something about metal ships during the civil war. But anyway, they had this large pile of "live oak" timbers, and didn't need them any more.
Some has said that they just pushed them off into a hole and buried them. (Again, I'm not sure if this is true or not).

Then the Navy sold a part of their lot or something like that, and they went to dig a cellar hole for a new hospital to be build there, and started finding all these timbers:



and:





Some are 10 x12 by? and some are larger. I was told there were some 22 x 22s in the pile.

Some are straight:



And from 16' to 18' long. Most are shorter.

So yesterday, I hauled my mill over there and started cutting some of them that had been pressure washed into 2 1/2" thick slabs, mostly no edging involved, as they want the old edges showing.

This stuff was some of the hardest, if not the hardest wood I've ever sawn.

I can't say whether or not if I hit any rocks in doing these, but I'm not getting very much time out of one blade.





He stacked up everything I did yesterday for some reason:



Sorry about the blurry photo.

I have spent a few minutes on the Woodmizer website and I have ordered some 4° blades.

I also talked over this job with Randy the blade guy and his video on their site about blades is very good.

He also suggested adding some vegetable oil to my water for lube. (Please don't tell me to put in diesel or some other oil based product because I won't be doing that). The customer doesn't want it on their wood, and I don't want to do it either.

I'm just writing this up to tell the story, but if anyone would like to offer any suggestions on milling this 100 year old "live oak" I'd be happy to read/hear it.

Jim Rogers

[Coon]

Looks like an interesting project to say the least.

[Jim_Rogers]

On the way back from there this morning, got rained out, plus they needed time to pressure wash more stuff for Monday, and Tuesday, I called one of my boat building customers who is always interested in white oak and other boat building lumber, and told him that they believe they have up to 150 knees in the pile.

The boat builder says he knows a guy who wants to make a 65' or longer schooner, and that they would need lots of "ship's knees" for this boat.

And I did mention to him that we use them in timber framing as well:

[Tom]

Jim,
I was astounded by the hardness of Liveoak the first time I sawed it  and every time since.

The application of water (all I used) was very variable from piece to piece and I found that I was running a full flow most of the time.  It makes sawdust mud, but helps to keep the blade running true.   I don't know if it's generated heat problems that the water is solving or not.  There was a time when a helper would aim a stream of water at the input side of the kerf and even seemed to help.

You can't beat sharp blades, though, and as hard as the wood is, it seems that wider sets are a detriment.  I never tried a band less than 7 or 8 hook on it, so can't be of much help there.  Sawing speed is instrumental though.  As you have probably found, you can't charge through the stuff.

I will say, don't allow even a little bit of a wavy cut because it will eat up someone's shop planer later.  If you are lucky, they will use it all for rustic building and some flaws won't matter too much.

Save some for yourself too.  It's a historic thing you are doing and it would be nice to have some of it in the barn with certification that it came from the shipyard.  Even if all you can get is chips, chips make fountain pens.  

[Slingshot]

    (quote)  "
                "He stacked up everything I did yesterday for some reason:"


      Suppose he wants to see what it looks like for a tall stack of live oak slabs
  to come tumbling down???? :D :D   8)



____________________

[Jim_Rogers]

That won't be happening today, as he un-stacked the pile first thing this morning.

You're right about the feed rate, Tom.

And thanks for all your advice, for sure......

Jim Rogers

[customsawyer]

I have only recently cut my first live oak and now it seems that I get more and more call to do so. I have not run into very many difficulties while cutting it. It will certainly let you know when the blade is getting dull.

[WDH]

Jim,

This is an intriguing project.  Dug up live oak could be about as bad as it gets around here when it comes to sawing.

[Dave Shepard]

That is a neat project Jim. I run 4° on anything hard and it seems to get the job done, but I've only sawn black locust and white oak for hard species.

[amberwood]

For the nasty dry resawing we found the head speed and lube were critical. Keep the blade cool, and drive the head speed as fast as the available HP will allow. In a 250mm cut we would typically have the 40hp diesel starting to bog down and then feather the head speed. One other trick we tried was to actually reduce the blade speed by dropping the engine rpm. This allows each tooth on the blade to take a full bite rather than flying past creating flour like dust and more heat etc. The same analogy as a skip tooth chainsaw, longer bar, more load, less teeth. The WM stellites(razortips) worked well in reducing the blade changes but did not like foriegn objects like nails or embedded rocks.
DTR

[cutterboy]

This is a really interesting story. Thanks for posting it. Live oaks are amazing trees and they can get pretty big.

Jim, how would you like to saw this one on your mill? ;D

[mikeb1079]

excellent post jim, thanks for taking the time.  very cool project to be involved with, albeit challenging!
cheers
mb

[Jim_Rogers]

The customer I'm working for updated his web site with some "job photos" of me and my milling working on his stock.

Also some more pictures of his benches that they are making and selling.

Here is a link to their site:

http://www.weatheredbenches.com/

Click on "milling" to see my mill and the progress.....

Jim Rogers

[Coon]

Looks like you're running a circus with that nice big umbrella.  :D  Bet it does help keep the sun off of you though.  Nice pics of the milling .

[kderby]

We need to talk up that umbrella Jim.  I have one as well and they are very effective.  Thanks for the photos.

Kderby

[Meadows Miller]

 Gday

Great thread and some interesting and beautiful recycled timber you are  sawing Jim  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) And welcome to recycled timber milling hard dirty stuff to saw but well worth the time and effort  ;) ;D

Regards Chris

[Jim_Rogers]

We need to talk up that umbrella Jim.  I have one as well and they are very effective.  Thanks for the photos.

Kderby

Recently when I was visiting another sawyer, who was new to woodmizers I mentioned to him that the vertical tubes on these mills are open, and you can slide a umbrella down into the tube.

The problem in doing this is that the umbrella sits too low and the hot muffler will melt or burn it.
(don't ask me how I know.... :D)

So, in order to not have this happen you need to "hold it up" a bit off the top of your vertical tubes. To do this you just get a piece of PVC that has the inside diameter of the outside of the umbrella tube. Then you need to figure out the correct length of this tube. To do that you need to raise your engine all the way up and then slide the umbrella down into the tube and measure how high it has to be in order for the umbrella panels to not touch the muffler.

I have two length tubes, for some reason, as shown here:



Above you can see one with the umbrella tube into the PVC on the table behind is the shorter one. Also note the 1x6 with the hole in it, on the table.

It is important to get a tube long enough to cover the hinge in the umbrella shaft:



I have had an umbrella fail at the hinge from wind blowing it sideways and breaking it at the plastic hinge. Having a PVC that covers the hinge help make it stronger, in my opinion.

Next you slide the umbrella shaft through the 1x6 to create a stop for the PVC tube:



This is what will sit on top of your mill's vertical steel tube.

To install the umbrella and it's PVC tube, and spacer board, I move my mill head down to the trailer wheel. Using the metal plate over the axle as a step, I step up onto the plate and it gets me high enough to slide the base of the umbrella shaft down into the mill's vertical steel tube.

While I'm standing up there, I attach a bungy strap to the ribs of the umbrella and it is long enough to go around the top bar and back to the umbrella's rib:



This holds the umbrella to the mill, so that if the wind picks up that the umbrella doesn't go flying down the driveway or off into the woods (again, don't ask me how I know.. :D) It must have been quite a site to see me chasing an open umbrella down the driveway being blown away by the wind......

This current umbrella is a 7' 6" one that I got from Walmart. I've had the big ones with the crank handle, but that's a whole different setup and it's much harder to install.

I think I paid around $20 for it. Recently I saw an 8' one at Sam's club for $26. I think I'll get that one next time.

If you get one that is under 7' in diameter, you'll have the water dripping on your back while you saw in the rain.

I place it in the tube closest to me so that it will cover me, the control box, and the engine. I feel it helps the engine some as well as keep me cool from the sun and dry from the lite rain I may work in sometimes.

It travels with me back and forth and that is nice.

Placing your mill where the umbrella will create shade for you at your work site is also important.

When I arrived at the site where we are milling this old "live oak" I asked him which way the sun traveled across their yard, so I'd know which way to set up the mill. Having the mill in this position puts me in the shade almost all day long.

I hope this information is helpful to you, if you want to add an umbrella to your mill.

I am definitely putting on a "show" doing this job..... Everyone who enters their yard to buy lumber from the flooring company, stops and watches us mill for a while. I have handed out business cards to lots of these customers. And I have gotten one side job already from it.

Jim Rogers

[ellmoe]

 "

Here is a link to their site:

http://www.weatheredbenches.com/

Click on "milling" to see my mill and the progress.....

Jim Rogers

FF strikes again! "Band width for site is exceeded."

[kderby]

Hey Jim,

Great write up on the umbrella!.  I think WoodMizer should get some made with the company color and logo.  They would not be the twenty dollar model that we usually buy.  A WoodMizer umbrella would certainly look sharp. 

I find fatigue is a critical factor for safety.  Having the umbrella up means less time broiling in the direct sunshine.  I also spend less time squinting, another fatigue factor.  When I get tired, I start to make mistakes.  My lumber quality and production starts to drop.  My risk of injury increases.   I would not spend money on something like an umbrella unless I was convinced it makes a difference. 

Thanks again for the write up on your approach.

Kderby   

[Jim_Rogers]

"

Here is a link to their site:

http://www.weatheredbenches.com/

Click on "milling" to see my mill and the progress.....

Jim Rogers

FF strikes again! "Band width for site is exceeded."

I don't think it's the forum as I have tried to look at that site from another regular browser tab. It could be them.
I called them to let them know that their web page is down and their going to look into it.
I'll let you know when it's up if I find out from the guy I'm working for.

Jim Rogers

[Jeff]

That can happen on a site with a low bandwidth hosting plan. It's sorta like going past your minutes on a cellphone plan and can be very expensive if you don't have a stop like that when you reach your limit.  A few years ago we got socked with an extra $2000 charge one month for passing the bandwidth we were allotted. That happens one time and you find out that it is a whole lot cheaper to pay more a month for a plan that has either high or unlimited bandwidth. Its also a good reason to make sure the images on your website are compressed as much as possible.

[Jim_Rogers]

That can happen on a site with a low bandwidth hosting plan. It's sorta like going past your minutes on a cellphone plan and can be very expensive if you don't have a stop like that when you reach your limit.  A few years ago we got socked with an extra $2000 charge one month for passing the bandwidth we were allotted. That happens one time and you find out that it is a whole lot cheaper to pay more a month for a plan that has either high or unlimited bandwidth. Its also a good reason to make sure the images on your website are compressed as much as possible.

Thanks for posting that, I passed it on to my contact guy. I'm sure that they are looking into it...

Jim Rogers

[Jim_Rogers]

Web site about the benches has been repaired......