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Big Honkin' Walnut Log, Little Mill

Started by WDH, May 30, 2011, 09:27:10 PM

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WDH

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on May 31, 2011, 10:01:57 AM
tcsmpsi, it sounds to me like Danny is running out of 8/4 walnut to sell :)

Dodgy has it right :).

I am listening.  Very good input.  If I had the computer skills, I would diagram the options on the end of the log in the photo.  Anybody know how to do this to show the theoretical log position and sequence of cuts?  Grade may change the actual from theory, but it is a place to start.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Jeff

Rons method is also how I would saw logs with such a crack when I was running the mill. Always putting the crack in the part of the log that got edged off.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

WDH

With the split in two planes, would you saw part of the log one way and the other another way?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ianab

The crack at 45% is probably the best recovery, but also a LOT of work on a manual mill.

I'm guessing the log is too big just to saw "thru and thru" on that mill though, so it has to be turned at some point.

Being keen on avoiding work, this is how I would do it.

Log lined up with split approx vertical, and make your first couple of cuts, recover what you can.


Then flip it 180deg and do the same.


Now 90deg and cut the best wide 2" boards that you can get top $$ for. Nearer the centre, lower grade, so go to 1" and maybe rip them in to narrower boards to reduce cupping that might be an issue with that part of the log


Cut out the spit section for firewood.


Some more 1" low grade, and then some more good wide 2" boards.


Ron's method would give the most high grade wood, and that matters in a commercial operation where maximising income depends on working within the grading rules, and a larger automated mill would make it much easier to use that method. But if you are selling to woodworkers those 24" wide boards of high grade walnut is what they will pay a bit of a premium for. Makes for great solid table tops.

Pity that the log split  :( , but you just need to make the best you can of what you have there.

I hear what you are saying about turning a $50 log into $500 of boards. Doesn't matter if it takes all day, you are making money. And if you can cut desirable stuff that people cant just buy "off the shelf", bonus time.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Tom

My take is that there are more situations to consider than just the heart-shake.   When a tree has a heart shake (check/split) like that, the log is bowed.  The bow, in every case Ive seen, follows the horizontal plane of the split.   That is why I treat each side of the split as its separate entity.  You get the straightest and less-stressed boards by sawing such that the split is horizontally inclosed in as few boards as possible.  That means that the log generally produces more flat-sawn lumber than vertical grain.  Vertical grain, cut from the split-free sides of the log will have the stresses of a bowed log that has been cut from the side, and the boards will crook more than would have been expected.  While logs of this size are fairly equal on both ends, many will produce tapered boards if sawed from the side.  Sawed through and through from hump to saddle also produces runout, but the lumber can usually be equally trimmed to be of the same width from one end to the other. The fault might lie that there would be short boards.

A good rule of thumb is that a log is only as big as it's little end.  Lumber taken from the outside, until the cant is squared, will produce short boards anyway, or narrow boards if cut from the side of the bow.

I have found that most any lumber is annoying to handle if cut from the side of a bowed log.  Crook (excessive crown) is difficult to use.  A bowed board can usually be pulled down.

If I were to go after vertical grain in that log, I would look for it in the sides of the boards cut from hump to saddle.

While I can see timbers being more efficiently cut from a boxed heart, if the heart split is oriented diagonally, I've never been able to produce more good boards from orienting the split that way.  It makes it even more confusing when you realize that the split doesn't always follow the same plane throughout the log.

I generally favor Ianab's diagram.

customsawyer

I have done it both ways and it usually has  something to do with whether or not I have a edger close to the mill.
When you have a edger and a hyd. mill Ron's way is best for good grade lumber. If you have a manual mill then I would go with Tom's way.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

pineywoods

Ouch, that big a log on a manual mill ! Last time I got one that big, I took a day off and added another hydraulic cylinder to the log turner..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Dodgy Loner

I have sawed several logs that big on an LT-15, but I always had a helper! I wish I was nearby to lend Danny a hand. I wouldn't mind watching Jake whittle down those monster pecans, either. The one good thing about that walnut is that it is as round and straight as you could ask for. The last big one I sawed was a post oak with a big, buttressed root flare. It took a lot of chainsaw trimming and a tractor to turn that sucker.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Bibbyman

We're all getting soft with our hydraulic mills.





Here is the larges walnut log we've ever sawn.   It's on our manual LT40 with 18hp B&S engine.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

WDH

I guess that I will need to get some spurs to saw that log!

When I get back home today, I plan to do a little figuring on the end of the log with some chalk to understand how this split affects the two best options offered to saw this log an see which one seems best for the circumstances.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

metalspinner

What do you gus think about splitting that log open all the way before sawing it?   ??? That would certainly take out any guess work as to where that crack will end up.  From the looks of it, the crack wants to run out the side of the log.  The smaller split off piece can still be sawn into shorts or turning blanks. The rest of the log can be sawn in the usual manner once it's cleaned up with a few sawing passes.

I'm sure veteran sawyers can read what's inside that log - crack and all - but splitting it in half would reduce handling and edging of heavy boards on the manual mill.

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

tcsmpsi

Under all my circumstances, I would take a chainsaw through the primary rift, as it will be problematic wood close to it any way, I/mill will be able to handle it better, would give me a better look at what is actually there, and would be able to tell more about the secondary rift and how to best utilize.   I would be looking at resaw for the odd shape/smaller cuts.   But, that's my set up and how the time/value and risk weigh out for it.

Not currently having any walnut, I can see about 47 yrs of projects from that log.  Of course, lately I have been working smaller and smaller projects, with unlimited floaters around in my head, down to about the size of a gnat's wardrobe.   :D

Danny knows more about what he can and does market from such wood.   Opportunity for any decent walnut around these parts, is rare.

If'n I was close enough (or vice versa  :D), I would be more than glad to help, and might get a few 'scraps'.   ;D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Ron Wenrich

If you split with a chainsaw, you'll end up with a lot of quartersawn material.  Some species it would be a bonus, but I don't think so with walnut. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dodgy Loner

I personally love the appearance of quartersawn walnut (and quartersawn cherry and maple, for that matter), but you are right, most woodworkers will not actively seek it out. It seems to me, though, that sawing to keep the crack at the corners - since the crack runs through two planes - would yield a good bit of lumber with flatsawn grain in which the 'cathedral' is off-center. Personally speaking, I dislike off-center flatsawn grain and I would actively avoid it if I were buying lumber. I believe most woodworkers would consider rift- or quartersawn walnut to be preferable to off-center flatsawn.

That being said, it is likely my own lack of experience that prevents me from seeing how you would grade-saw this log and still maintain centered grain :).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Ron Wenrich

Nobody says you have to have a centered log with 4 sides that are parallel or at right angles.  It could be 6 or 3 or 8 or whatever works.   A little more work from an edging standpoint. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

customsawyer

Talked with Danny on the phone and decided the best way to cut this log is for him to put it on a trailer and bring it with him when we do the pecan project.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Dodgy Loner

Good point, Ron. I couldn't get the 4-sided cant out of my head. There would be a little more waste when edging since the log is destined to be 8/4 lumber, but you could definitely keep the grain centered that way. Sounds like you could give this log to 10 different sawyers and it would get sawed up 10 different ways. Lots to learn from this thread for a neophyte like me :)

We will definitely need plenty of pictures when this log finally meets the saw!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

The sawing angels have smiled upon me!

Sweet Providence!
 

Serendipity in the sawdust!!


If you have a big honkin' log, act pitiful on the Forum, and have only a little manual mill, then a Sawyer Knight on a White Horse (or one with a LT70) might ride to your rescue (or have you ride to him)  :D. 

Jake (Customsawyer) called today and proposed to saw the big walnut with full hydraulics, a wonderful edger, and a penchant for beautiful women big logs  ;D.  He said to haul it over and he would let the LT70 have at it.  Saved in the nick of time ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Coon

In other words you are saying that this thread topic needs to be changed to: "Rollin' a Big Honkin' Walnut Log, Off Little Mill"    ;)  ;D 
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Coon

What is the widest your throat will open on your LT15, WDH? 
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

WDH

26 & 1/2 inches between the left side and the right blade guide roller.  I could saw this log,  because when I cut some flat faces on all four sides, the cant would be a little less than 26".  It is 30" on the butt and 25" on the little end.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

I love angels.   ;)

I have found that the best "rule" for sawing split logs is to remember that each log is an individual.  They make their own sawing/opening decisions.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jeff

Danny, can we please have a photo of you riding your log?  ;)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

WDH

OK  :).

I guess that is part of sawing the big ones.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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