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How do you sharpen an insert tooth blade?

Started by Rod, January 03, 2004, 03:34:45 AM

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Rod

And what kind of grinder do you use?

And were do you buy saw blades?

Captain

I know some folks that do not sharpen, they change inserts at $1 each.  

Up here in New England we have a couple of folks that build blades. (Atlantic Carbide, Somerset MA; Burns Tooling, Fall River MA; Super Thin Saws, Waterbury, VT).  

There are also a few Saw Doctors/Hammerers on the you can find with a web search.

How do you sharpen?  I only speak from experience of my Peterson, sharpening carbide with a 400 grit Diamond stone.  This stone is mounted to a modified Sharpboy saw chain grinder to hold the angle and shrpen right on the mill.  I will be interested to read the other replies.

BTW, RevCant (another Peterson owner) is located in Maryland and uses a saw doctor down there.  He may be able to provide us a more local alternative to you.

Captain

Jeff

I sharpen two ways. With a Jockey Grinder or with a file. If the saw is being cantankerous I use the file to get it extra sharp and "adjust" its problem.


Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

I wouldn't be looking for a new saw.  Costs are about $1700-2200, depending on size and mfg.  A good saw doc will have some used ones for about 25% of that price.  Don't forget sawmill auctions.  There are usually a few saws that are OK at them.  The saw will probably need hammered.

I primarily hand file.  I'm one of the few left that do that.  Most guys will use either a grinder like Jeff shows, or an Andus hand grinder.  It has a bunch of files on a circular disc and works OK.

A lot will depend on the type of teeth you use.  I use a steel tooth during most of the year.  But, in the winter, I may switch over to a chrome tooth.  The chrome will stay sharp longer, but you can't hand file them very well.  You must grind the chrome layer off before you get into hand filing.  Chrome are also a little more brittle and harder to swage.

There is also a Dexter file guide that I highly recommend.  I bought one several years ago, and it keeps all the angles consistent.  It uses a diamond file, which will last a long time and can be used on chrome.  Saws really cut.

I'm not sure if they are in business, but here's the last info I have on them"  Sawmill Tool & Service Co., RR #1, Box 300B, Pudding Hill Rd, Lyndonville, VT  05851   802-626-9027   FAX  802-626-3479

The biggest problem you will have is keeping your teeth square, especially with hand filing.  Take a small mirror, and put it flat against a tooth.  Your saw should be directly behind it, if it is square.  If it is off, your saw will be either to the right or left of it.  Your saw will follow the longest side of your tooth.

The other problem is angle.  If your tooth gets too slim, then it will be brittle, and not contact the wood quite right.  If it is too fat, then the bottom of your tooth will contact the wood before the tooth edge.  You'll get heat in your saw, and fine sawdust.  You can make an angle guage that fits over top of your tooth to keep you honest.  

When troubleshooting a saw, the first thing I do is change teeth.  If it clears up, then the problem is in the sharpening, not the saw or the set up.  Sawing is easy, making a saw cut properly is the hard part.

If you are looking at a circle mill, I would suggest you go over to Ebay and get the Sawmill Handbook Collection.  It costs about $10 and has a good section on circle mills.  It also has some great info on dry kilns, moisture meters, air drying and a whole lot more.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Rod

I have been thinking of buying the morgan mini scragg with the 36''blades,75hp commons diesel motor and I was wondering how to sharpen the blades.The jockey grinder looks easy to use.


Were do you buy the jockey grinder?

What kind of inserts would be best to use and were do you buy them?

The company that I have been talking to said if I can keep the 4''x6'' cants 4x6's he would pay more so that was what I am hoping to do...




http://www.morgansaw.com/products_scraggs.html

Rod


Jeff

Here are three short movie clips, the first two are of me swaging. Third is running the jockey grinder. You may have to use the controls on your media player to brighten to really see.

www.forestryforum.com/media/swage.mpg
www.forestryforum.com/media/swage2.mpg (close-up)
www.forestryforum.com/media/sharpen.mpg





Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Rod

Jeff,Is that a chisel you are using for swaging?


The ginding looks like something I can do but the swaging I might be a little learning.

How often do you think the blades would need tenstioned?

About how long do the inserts last?

Ron Wenrich

Its not a chisel, its an upset swage.  It has 2 sides on it.  One side is curved, the other is straight.  You use the curved side to stretch the metal from the middle of the tooth to the outside.  The straight side is used to straighten it out.  There is an associated learning curve.

Inserted teeth, jockey grinders, and swages can be bought from your saw doc.  He should be able to give you the short course on how to maintain a saw.  The rest is sweat equity.

You have 3 choices in inserted teeth - steel, chrome and carbide.  How long they last depends on how dirty the logs, and how much trash you hit.  Cost is about 85 cents on the steel, $1.25 on the chrome and $3.25 on the carbide.  

I have no experience with the carbide.  The steel only lasts a little less time than chrome, so I figure the economical one to use is the steel.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I have 2 swags. One I will take with me when I leave because its an extention of my hand ;D. The other one, (the one with blue paint on it) should be thrown in a lake.





Here's the difference. A good swage handle has 6 sides, it fits your hand and does not twist when struck.



The 4 sided fits ackwardly in your hand and will twist when struck.


The Secret of swaging a saw is to do everything exactly the same on each tooth. Hold the swage the same each time and strike it the same. If you look at the tools above you will see which I use by the wear. I only use the curved side. I hit once for one corner, slide the tool sideways on the tooth and strike again for the opposite corner.

The Tooth may start out looking like this:



The resulting swaged and ready to be sharpened tooth looks like this:





Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

cluckerplucker

there is not much I can ad to sharpening the teeth but get extra >I have hit nails a lot and wwen I shut down and chack the blade I have to only replace a couple or three theeth and go back too sawing .I sharpen with a fine bastard when I shut down for the day Try to keep the swageing to a mimunim.and the teeth will last longer.I get mine from IKS thay run 40.00 a box of 100 teeth   (steel).U.S.1-800-426-6226-,west canada 1-604-888-1315          
                                   cluckerplucker
cecil

Jeff

Swageing actually extends the life of the teeth.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sawyerfortyish

40.00 A box  :o are you sure the last ones I bought from IKS was almost 100.00. I use 3x8/9 9/32.

Jeff

Cheapest we can get standards are 85 a box of 100 if we buy 10 boxes.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Captain

Hey Jeff,

Is the jockey grinder adjustable for face angle?
Can you buy diamond wheels for it to do carbide?
How big of a face can you grind?
Is there an adjustment for the width of the blade so the unit does not rock?

The Peterson arrangement does work, but you have to be careful NOT to grind any set into the faces of the tips.  The unit is pivoted slightly to grind the entire face.  Looks like the Jockey unit is rigid and does not pivot.  Thanks for the video clip....

Captain

Rod


Norm


Ron Wenrich

The reason for swaging a saw is that you need to have clearance so that the log doesn't rub the eye.  The eye of the saw is thicker than the rim.  

As you can see in the tooth picture, the tooth is like a "V".  As it wears, the tooth gets narrower.  The swaging widens back to the original specs.

I don't swage the way that Jeff does.  Most guys do swage that way, but I've found that it makes the corners break off of the teeth.  All you're doing is stretching the metal from the corners out.  

What I do is take one hit in the center of the tooth.  That pushes the metal out from the center.  The corners of the teeth is what does the cutting, so I want as much meat there as possible.  I also square it off.

You also have to be careful you don't pull back with the swage or push down.  That all will have to be filed out, and you end up back where you started, except shorter teeth.

For damaged teeth, I will try to spread the corner.  For badly damaged teeth, I just throw them away.  

Do you swage before or after you sharpen?  I've heard you're supposed to swage after you sharpen.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Rod

You can't  swage tungsten carbide tho,right?

Sawyerfortyish

Ron I'm with you I swage from the center out also. I don't debark the logs so I need as strong of a corner as I can make. I've also heard about swaging after you sharpen but I think you have to use a differant style swage. Meant to swage after sharpening. I think the ones Jeff shows is for swaging before you sharpen. I didn't know about the angles to fit your hand. I have the square one :(  I guess you learn somthing everyday. I tryed the carbide once on logs that arn't debarked they are no good the dirt and small grit chips the corners of the face and you can't swage them back.

Jeff

Sawing debarked logs, I dont have any trouble with corners breaking off the swaged teeth compared to unswaged. Whatever damages the corners has no preference.

I'll try to get some better pictures of the grinder. Its fully adjustable for tip, angle, or whatever, however, this model is made for larger saws. If you are using it for small diameter blades, say 20 inches or less, I think you would need the model with the shorter frame. The jockey has a series of spring loaded internal "buttons" adjustable externally by 1/2 inch wrench and a screw driver that keep it from rocking and true from side to side. Its hard to explain with out a picture.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

sawhead

Every one seems to have their own way of swaging and filing a saw but here is my 2 pennies .Holding a swage in the correct way is very important, too far down and you will turn the tooth down, too far up will turn it up and it will break off. A swage should be held very lightly with the hand  not grasped tight.I always hit in the center of the tooth with the #1 side thats the rounded part then square with the 2 side the flat part.it doesn't take a heavy blow to really move that metal so be careful of how hard you are hitting the swage. I also will file a tooth that has been beat up before swaging just to establish a good edge to work with , but if they are in fair condition (normal dulling) just swaging and filing will suffice. I prefer to hand file a saw as it seems to me to get the tooth sharper but a grinder is a lot quicker. When filing you can tell when its sharp by looking at the tip and you will see a little curl of steel come up , then it's sharp.I always take my file handl and jut tap the curl to knock it off (jeff called it wood honing! good name) make sure to hold the file square with the tooth as leaning the file up or down will cause a long corner and the saw will lead that way.What you are shooting for is a tooth profile that should look like and cut like a new tooth .The one thing is it takes practice, I know I have been practicing for almost 27 yrs  :D
The journey of a thousand miles begins
with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire

Jeff

Hey! Welcome sawhead. We were needin another old circle saw guy. Ya never know, at his age, Wenrich might go senile so we need all the help we can get.

I'll add a little more on my grip of the swage. I use only one tool. I know its feel and when its right. Its not too long, its not too short, its just right.

When I grip the swage in my hand, just enough sticks up to strike. I position it on the tooth by using "anchor points" so I can do it exactly the same on each tooth. Certain parts of my hand will touch certain parts of the saw. After experience and practice you know when it is exactly right. Its kinda like shooting the bow if you are a bow hunter. You develop anchor or a release point where one part of your hand or release touches a certain part of your face each time enabling you to be precise and consistent on each draw.

As you said, it does not take much of a rap to move metal. If you watch the video you will see a rhythm. A repetitive even pace that strikes each tooth the same.

I sure hope my swage doesn't wear out before I do. I have tried different ones and I hate them. I have found only a couple with the 6 sided handle but they are not the length I like. I want that flared part of the tool snug against the bottom of my hand and the top as I mentioned, sticking up just enough to strike. The longer it is, the easier it is for you to be off a degree.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Frickman

We use a grinder manufactured by McCormick's over in Bethesda, Ohio. It is similar to an Andrus hand filer, in that it clamps to the saw. My grandfather has an Andrus at his mill, and it works well. Years ago we used to run plain steel teeth and swage and file by hand. A friend lent me his jockey grinder, but I could never grind square with it, no matter how much I tried. It seemed that as there is some clearance between the grinder body adjustment screws and the saw,and I couldn't keep it square to the saw.

I got the hang of the McCormick grinder though, and can grind much more accurately than I can file. I can file square at the start, but as I get tired on a 50 tooth saw I start to make mistakes. With the carbide we run now a grinder and diamond wheel is necessary.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Jeff

The Jockeys can be a bear to get adjusted for your saw the first time because of all the adjustments for all the variables. The friends Jockey probably had the adjuster buttons that I spoke of, and the different wear plates on it wore or wore out. I have to rebuild mine every 3 or 4 years and rplace the front and rear wera plates probably every 3 or 4 months.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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