What mid-sized mill to buy?

[Logginsteve]

I'm starting the process of taking the plunge on a mill, mostly for my own uses.  After having about 10,000 bf sawn for me over the past few years, and access to more land than I had before, I think it's time to go for it.  But there are so many options out there!

I'm most familiar with Woodmizer's hydraulic trailer mounted rigs.  I've always helped out when my stuff was sawn so I can fully appreciate why hydraulic rigs are so useful.  Unfortunately, as we all know they are very expensive.  Too expensive for a guy that probably won't do more than a couple thousand bf a year for fun and not profit.  Trailing would be a great option, but I'm not sure if it's worth investing in mobility.  So I've been looking at non-portable mills without hydraulics.

Here's my story and hopefully I can get some guidance...

I generally work with logs under 25" diameter and 20' long.  Rarely do I need to mill anything in the 30-50" diameter range, so I don't want to invest in something that big unless it seems to make sense (i.e. used rig at a good price).

I live in Central Maine.  Species around me are generally Ash, Poplar, White Birch, and Red Maple for hardwoods, Eastern White Pine, Balsam Fir, White Spruce, and the occasional Hemlock and White Cedar.  Various other species like Beech, Yellow Birch, Rock Maple, etc. happen upon occasion.  Over the course of a year I probably saw about 30/70 hard/soft wood.

I tend to like boards, but also do a lot of dimensional stock whenever possible.  It is amazing how quickly one can go through 2x6s when doing a project that calls for them to be 12 on center!  And no matter how many 4x4s I have lying around, it seems I need at least one more.

Being a Yankee means if I cut something I yard it, and if I yard it I saw it no matter how ungodly ugly it might be (OK, if there's no heart in a log I do admit defeat). Because of this I will be dealing with lots of sweep, uneven taper, notches, etc. that make the first cut more "interesting" than for normal quality logs.

Lastly, my price range is flexible.  I want the right tool for me more than I want to save a buck (which is how I failed my Yankee Certification Test last time I took it!).  I'm not that old, but I'm old enough to know that under buying a significant tool winds up costing more in the end.  If all goes well I see myself using this rig for 10 years minimum, maybe 20 if I don't decide to scale up.

My primary concern, looking at features, is how the log is set for the first cut.  Most of the rigs I've seen have next to nothing (or nothing) to level out to the blade according to what is best for that particular log.  Most seem to be roll on and saw.  I'm pretty sure that would be a big mistake for me.  Manually jacking and muscling things around doesn't frighten me, getting a terrible first cut does.

With all that background info out of the way... I'm curious if anybody can picture me sawing on something specific?  Any advice and guidance for my purchasing adventure?

Thanks!

Steve

[Tom]

Woodmizer, Norwood, Baker, Cook and many others make manual push-mills that would do what you want to do.  I've been most impressed with Norwoods offering, but that is only because they are so popular here.

The two things that will be your most concern is horsepower and dogging/clamping.

The push-mills can be mounted as high off of the ground as you like, or flat on the ground.  There are no hydraulics involved in the log handling, so height is for comfort.  Height might also be necessary if you fabricate some hydraulic log manipulation equipment.  Height also allows you to clean out from under the mill.

While called "starter" mills, these models really aren't, but serve backyard cabinet makers very good.  If not pressured by production numbers, they aren't difficult to operate.

If you wanted to spend the money, you could buy most any of the trailer mounted hydraulic mills with setworks and all the bells and whistles as a stationary installation.  So, you really aren't limited.  You will be surprised at the amount of lumber that can be produced on an LT15, lumbermate and lumberlite models, 18m and MP-32. 

Your satisfaction will increase with the horsepower of the machine.  My personal opinion is that you are better off with 20 horse, or better.  Whether gas, diesel or electric is mostly a personal preference.  Electric might have a smaller resale market.

[kelLOGg]

Most of the rigs I've seen have next to nothing (or nothing) to level out to the blade according to what is best for that particular log.  Most seem to be roll on and saw.  I'm pretty sure that would be a big mistake for me.  Manually jacking and muscling things around doesn't frighten me, getting a terrible first cut does.

I think most manual mills will not have adequate leveling abilities. My MP-32 didn't so I welded two 2 x 8 channel iron members between the main rails about 8 feet apart. I mounted two dedicated 4 ton jacks on them and when I need to level they are always there.
Bob

[jdtuttle]

Hi Steve,
There are lots of great used mills out there. If you plan on sawing for 10 to 20 years get as much hydraulics as possible. Things seem to get heavier as I get older. Try this site for some info on used mills http://www.sawmillexchange.com/
jim

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum. First thing you say 20 foot logs. That's one of the reason I bought a Thomas mill in Brooks,ME. I got the longer track for the long logs.Others brands sell extensions too.I also like the move able bunks too. Some of the mills they sell now do not have this feature. You can cut a piece of stove wood length wood by moving them. Or place them where a big bump in the log is.But these are all manual mills. Would need a jack to raise the end of the log. The Thomas mill I have is made out of ¼ steel.

http://www.thomasbandsawmills.com/Products/Bandsaw%20Mills/index.html

[ladylake]

Hi Steve,
There are lots of great used mills out there. If you plan on sawing for 10 to 20 years get as much hydraulics as possible. Things seem to get heavier as I get older. Try this site for some info on used mills /
jim

  A used one with all the hydralics you can get sound good to me, there are some good deals out there.    Steve

[tcsmpsi]

I have a manual mill, suited to me quite properly.  I was here once, as you are now.  Looked and heard, searched and researched.  Much the same situation as you have summarized.  The Baker 18 HD was along the lines I was boiling down to.  In the end, of course, looking for the best 'bang for the buck'.  There was one manufacturer in my state, which happened to be about 100 miles up the road.  And, they were completely amenable to build one as I wished.  I had it built mobile, for the ease of moving it and, certainly, to be able to use it in the field if necessary.  It will only cut (easily) a 19'6" length (which mfg and I have already worked out). Presently, it is sitting on a wood floor, attached through the feet of the leveling jacks with heavy lag bolts which can be quickly and easily removed.  It is stable, keeps its level/plumb extremely well.  Logs banging around on it don't move it.  It has more support, clamps, etc. than others that I looked at.  It is very simple with non-proprietary parts and has more than paid its own weight as the integral part of the household/business it was intended.  It has a 13 hp Kohler engine which has only bogged down in a couple of exceedingly hard/twisted pecan butts. Since it only powers the band, it proven itself quite sufficient.  I have loading the mill pretty simple (tractor/fel, staging ramp/rack), set at the right height for me to unload/operate.  Where I would find hydraulics to be quite handy (in my own personal need/set up), would be to turn logs/cants.
Certainly, plenty of mill to fulfill my own needs and the needs of a few others as necessary. 

[Mooney]

As you boil down your choices, be sure and call the manufacturers and see if there are any mill owners in your area for that particular model.  If you haven't tried out the model for yourself already, spending some time with them might make the difference for you. 

Sounds like the LT10 or 15 might work for you.  Both have unlimited bed extensions and engine upgrade options. There are a lot of good manual mills out there, though.  Get what works for you!  ;D

[Logginsteve]

Thanks for the follow ups.  Good stuff.  Even seeing the things I thought I knew helps because it means I'm not totally off base!

I agree that a used mill, with hydraulics, would be a good fit for me if the price is right.  There's just the one problem... finding one within a reasonable driving distance.  The only one I've seen for sale recently had a price on it way too high.  Funny enough, the mill that was owned by the former owner of my house was sold to someone, then to someone else.  That someone else has been sawing my wood and it was only a few years later we realized the mill had come back to roost! 

I'm probably going to put the mill into the side of a hill.  This allows me to yard the logs "above" and use gravity to get them down onto the bed.  So there's one reason hydraulic lifters aren't really necessary.  Leveling can be done with home made devices as described above, so I will keep that in mind.  I can weld basic stuff and bottle jacks are cheap. If I find an otherwise good match then I can see myself modifying to get better leveling capabilities.

Thomas is one I'm planning on looking into simply because it's a local manufacturer.  Shop local, and all that.

I've got some time to play with.  I couldn't possibly use the mill until the Fall as I have a couple thousand bf of boards to plane between now and then.

Thanks!

Steve

[Larry]

I had a manual mill for 16 years and now have a hydraulic mill.  The biggest thing I hated with the manual mill was turning big logs.  That mill had power feed/up & down which was a slight improvement, especially for productivity.  I was happy with 16 HP just because I had never sawed with anything much bigger.  Since learned that more horsepower is much better, especially in hardwoods.  I would have rapidly lost interest in sawing with the manual mill if it had not been for my tractor with FEL/pallet forks.

Before buying any mill I would buy a machine to handle logs, WM or Cooks sharpner/setter, and a big honkin cant hook from Logrite.  With the money left over see which mill fits your budget and expectations.

[paul case]

not much to add except to say i believe ez boardwalk is the most reasonably priced mill with a 16' log cut and 24 hp motor.
here is my manual hydraulic toe board.




it is just sitting on a couple of wood blocks. no welding necessary.

you can do a lot of shopping right here. the ads  to the left of this page are some of our sponsors and if you click on their name it takes you to their web page. some even have videos.

oh and btw   welcome to the forestry forum.  pc

[WDH]

I cut 98% hardwood for furniture and woodworking, so I only cut logs that are 8.5 and 10.5 feet long if I am doing the bucking.  I level the logs on the mill with plastic wedges like the ones you use felling trees.  That is fast and relatively easy if you only need to raise one end of the log a couple of inches or less.

Like has been said, get that big honking Logrite cant hook if you are turning big logs by hand.  That is the best money that you will ever spend.

[ladylake]

not much to add except to say i believe ez boardwalk is the most reasonably priced mill with a 16' log cut and 24 hp motor.
here is my manual hydraulic toe board.




it is just sitting on a couple of wood blocks. no welding necessary.

you can do a lot of shopping right here. the ads  to the left of this page are some of our sponsors and if you click on their name it takes you to their web page. some even have videos.

oh and btw   welcome to the forestry forum.  pc

And it will saw some big logs, more and more people want wide natural edge slabs.    Steve

[Qweaver]

I started out with a completly manual WM LT15.  With several injuries (not sawmill related) and advancing age, I needed a mill with some mechanical advantage.  The LT28 was the answer for me.   The ability to load, turn and level the log using a winch works well  without the high cost of hydraulics.  I also do nearly as many portable jobs now as I do sawing at my home site. 

[Logginsteve]

Before buying any mill I would buy a machine to handle logs, WM or Cooks sharpner/setter, and a big honkin cant hook from Logrite.  With the money left over see which mill fits your budget and expectations.

This is one reason I'm leaning towards cutting my mill into a side of a hill where, coincidentally, I already yard my logs.  This should allow me to use gravity to roll them onto the mill without much fuss and buy me time to either get a used grappler loader/trailer or hit the lottery

Getting the logs onto the mill, theoretically, shouldn't be a problem if I've got a smooth shot and gravity working for me.  Getting them positioned on the mill is what I'm more concerned about.  Using bottle jacks, like Paul, seems to be sufficient and definitely vastly less expensive than a hydraulic based system.  I have no illusions about doing without hydraulics, but until I can justify that sort of expense (or find a used mill with hydraulics) this will likely do.

If I'm sawing mostly softwood, and not the hardest of hardwoods (like oak), what do you all consider under powered for a head capable of about 26" wide cuts?  Most of the mills I've seen, and discussed here, have two options or more for HP.  16hp minimum?

Thanks!

Steve

[thecfarm]

I went with a 20 hp on my mill. Do I need that much hp?Probaly not,but much easier to not need the hp,than need the hp and not have it. By the way if you are plan on cutting 20 foot logs,get a mill that will cut 24 foot logs. I bought a mill that will cut 20 foot logs,never have,but this is where I lucked out. On a mill that will cut 20 foot logs,you have 4 feet to play with. No need to get that log on the mill just right. With a manual mill it's very hard to move a log a few inches away from the sawhead becuse it is not quite right. I kinda have my on a small incline too. Had to haul some gravel in to make it work. I plan on building a trailer and put my logs on that and than pull that up to the mill and roll the logs off from the trailer right on to the mill.

[paul case]

qweaver is right about that winch thing. i bought a turning / loading winch with my mill. on the big uns it is worth its weight in gold. it is just a hand winch but is a big help in turning logs bigger than 14''. it is on a hinged upright that lays down when not in use. here is a pic.  pc





horsepower and width of cut seem to define how fast you can cut.
wide cuts = slower cutting
lower hp= slower cutting
higher hp= faster cutting
narrower cuts = faster cutting
mine is 20 hp honda. 460 hours and no engine trouble yet. easy on fuel too. if i cut hard all day(1100bdft) it wont burn 5 gallons of gas.
i think seeing the mill work is key. most mill salesman will tell you not to expect the results you see at a demonstration until you have sawed with your mill for a while. there was a recent post from someone who bought a lt70 and were disgusted with their results. some mills have a big learning curve.
my ez boardwalk is very easy to work with and work on and still i made many a mistake when i first started. knocking the band off from not lifting the head high enough, clipping the top of a log stop, not clamping boards good enough when edging and them coming off and knocking the band off the wheels,pushing too hard with a dull blade and making boards that look like the humps and dips at the water slide, and rolling a log or 2 off the back side of the mill just to name a few.
keep looking. you cant ask too many questions.  pc

[WDH]

I have the LT15 with the 15 HP Kohler.  It does fine, but if I had to do it all over again, I would certainly go with the 25 HP option.  The extra HP is well worth the little bit of extra money.

[customsawyer]

If you are wanting to make 26" wide cuts it is going to limit you as to what mill you buy.

[Mike@Norwood]

Good morning Steve

As others have suggested, it will definitely help your decision process by seeing some mills in action. There are a lot of quality mills on the market so finding a machine that suits your needs shouldn't be a problem.

Just so you're aware, we're having an Open House & Cook-out at our Buffalo warehouse on Saturday June 4th from 10 am - 5 pm. If you're available and in close proximity please feel free to stop by to have a look at our sawmiils. It would be great to meet some members of the Forestry Forum.

I'd also like to point out that we have some exciting new accessories in the works and they're coming soon. Hydraulic & Power accessories will be available for the LumberMate Pro MX34 providing owners a unique opportunity to customize their sawmill to their needs and expand their operation as they see fit. One of the benefits with new features is that it helps keep your up front cost down. Then if your needs change our accessories provide the flexibilty to grow with your needs.

If you have any questions, please feel free to call us toll-free at 1-800-567-0404 or visit our website
www.norwoodsawmills.com


Best of luck,

Mike at Norwood

[Logginsteve]

I am kicking myself for not having thought of this research need when I was at the Forestry Expo in Bangor two weekends ago.  My head was firmly focused on the logging end of things and didn't do more than give a little looksie on each of the sawmill vendors that were there.  I blew a great opportunity to compare features.  Oh well, life's not perfect and neither am I :D

Here are the 6 models I'm looking at, in case people have more comments to chip in.  And yes, I fully understand (and agree) with the rules here of not slamming vendors.  Bad form.  Unfortunately for 5 of the 6 vendors I'm looking at, only 1 is going to get my order.  No offense to 2nd place :D

Wood-Mizer LT15
Norwood LumberMate Pro MX34
Timber King 1220
Logmaster LM-1
EZ Boardwalk 40
Thomas Bandsaw 8020

I've priced out each (except Logmaster... no online pricing I could find) so they are roughly equal... 20-25hp gas engine, throat at least 28", 20' of track/deck, and trailer package.  Extras are far more expensive for some than others, some options aren't even available for a particular model.  Price range is between $7500 and $11,000.  The devil is unfortunately in the details.

A 50% price delta between least and most expensive means the more expensive model had better be a LOT better.  However, that's hard to tell without having cut a couple thousand BF on each machine.  Or at least seeing each in operation.  That's not going to be an option for me, I think, unless I wait until next Spring's Forestry show in Vermont.  The problem I have with vendors is each understandably wants me to believe that their feature set is better than the others.  Sometimes there are definite advantages, other times they are perceived more than actual.  "Our Minivan comes with 33 cup holders standard.  You won't find another minivan with such versatility!"  That sort of thing ;)

Decisions, decisions, decisions!  Fortunately I have a time before I'm ready to bite into this one.  I want to be up and running for spring 2012, so I plan on buying this Fall.

Steve

[Magicman]

Click on the "Forum Extras" box above.  Maybe you can find some sawyers with different brands of mills close to you.  Hands on and watching them in production would be helpful.  Good luck with your search/decision.

[Tom]

Don't kick yourself too hard.  If you click on the Sawmill Manufacturer's sponsor links on the left side of the page, you will find that most of them will have a show schedule on their website.  You might find another show within driving distance of you.

[paul case]

you are welcome to come watch and learn how to operate my ez boardwalk 40 anytime if'n you got any plans to be in northeast oklahoma! call me if you want,918 542 4008.
i would be surprised if there isnt one in your state though. call edward and i am sure he will be happy to help you with finding someone near you that would let you come see their mill.

i wouldnt put anyones mill down. there are some significant differences in how stout they are built. a sawmill takes a beating. turning big logs and them slamming flat sides down on the bed is hard on stuff. buy a good heavy one.
even if it isnt your plan at this time, you may be doing this to make a living and you will want a good heavy piece of equipment that can handle the stress.
happy hunting.