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Ford industrial engine question(s)

Started by mad murdock, May 02, 2011, 03:11:35 AM

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mad murdock

I am finally to the point of tearing into my Garrett engine, (172D, ford industrial 4 cyl).  I am trying to determine the useability of the block as is.  I pulled the head, and it appears that the cylinders are not sleeved.  Cylinders 2 and 3 have clearly marked STD on the pistons, which of course is standard size.  Cylinder 1 the piston has no clear marking on it, cylinder 4 (nearest to flywheel) has a "90R" marking on it.  I have the ford industrial engine shop manual, and I can not find a reference to the "90R" marking.  Anyone know what it means?  I will pull the belly plates and oil pan, so I can take the con-rods apart, and pull the pistons all the way out tomorrow, so i can get a precise measurement of each cylinder bore (taper and Out of round, as well as average bore dia.) to see if I can go over anymore.  John W. advised me to not go over .012" oversize, as i will have problems with overheating, which sounds like good advice to me.  At this point, I can only hope that the cylinder bores are well under that so I can just hone to the next size up.  I will know for sure tomorrow night.  Anyone have a reference to an overhaul manual on the fule injection pump (Roosa Master), or the injectors.  I have access to a lot of precision tooling, If I had the specs I am sure I could ovehaul the pump and injectors myself, saving me a bunch of $$.  Sorry for the ramble.

:) ???
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

John Woodworth

mad murdock: what you want to check is your cylinder taper, .010 and up you will have ring and piston problems, since it,s standard bore go to the machine shop and have it bored .010 oversize, if it dosen't clean up .020 oversize should.

Being it's deisel it would be margional to go as far as .030, anything above thet the cylinder wall get too thin which causes heating up. Go with your own block beings it's rare to find one even if you could that was standard bore and the momey you would spend for a good runner would probably be more than shop time as well as the deisel is not that common, even the gas are getting hard to find.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

mad murdock

Ok John.  Sounds good.  I will proceed as you said.  Tonight after work, I will be taking measuring tools home, getting the bottom end out of the machine, and mic'ing the cylinders to see what taper and out of round I have to deal with.  Do you know what the "90R" marking on the one piston means?  I have a lead on overhaul kits from a couple of places on-line around 600-700 for a compleate kit with pistons ( I specify size when I order the kit).  Do you have a "go to" parts house here in the NW that you work with? I am also looking for info on the injectors and injector pump, so I can overhaul them my self.  With the data, I could set up a flow bench and pattern check the nozzles myself, just need the information.  (information is power).  Thanks again John!! 8) 8)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

John Woodworth

Before you order any kits work with the machine shop because they won't know until the bore it for the piston size, talk to them first and see what they recomend, as for the pump and injectors i'll look and see if I have anything on them, can't promise though but it takes a absoult dust free environment for the pump, what are the injectores, are they the pencil type, if so there is no rebuild and you will probably distroy them getting them out of the head. What are the numbers off the pump? I'll look to see if I have anything.



Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

mad murdock

OK John, the Injection pump is a model # DBGVCC429-8AJ, Serial # 528402  on the right side of the data plate it has 2200, and below that it has the numbers CONN-9A543-J ( maybe Mfg serial or model#?)  The injectors have SIMMS cast into the flange area, and from the base of the flange to the tip is maybe 3 1/2- 3 3?4 inches, the tips have 4 orifices spaced evenly 90 deg. from each other.  I have the use of our end mill at work, and probably can bore it myself, I even have contacts with where I can get the tool.  I am trying to do as much myself as I am really on a budget, but I have ethe skills to be able to make sure it is done right.  (My day job is spent wrenching on helicopters, been doing that for nigh on 20 years now  :)).  We have a clean room at my work that we use for building up Helicopter transmissions, gearboxes, turbine engine modules etc, so the pump and injectors will be easy with the data.  I don't even want to crack them open if I don't have access to the right data.  The injectors came out pretty easy, just a little wiggle and pull, and they all came out.  I was surprised, I was prepared for a battle.  I sure appreciate your taking the time to chime in on this,  I do have the Ford factory manual on the engine, but the pump and injectors are only covered in that manual for install, removal,  engine to pump timing and troubleshooting charts for various failure conditions.  Any info for me will be like gold.  If you have a helicopter or airplane that needs fixing I sure can help you out there.  Forgot to bring home the mic's and calipers, oh well, still have to get the oil pump and drive train out of the way to get the conn rods/pistons out anyways.  Will get a  good idea of the block condition tomorrow.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

bushmechanic

Hey mad murdock good to see you at that old ford engine.Do you have a injector tester?No trouble to do those injectors,clean the tips with the proper size cleaners and make sure that the needle seats good so as there is no dribble when finished injecting,set your pop pressure to whatever it is supposed to be and your good to go.I have no doubt if you can find the info on the injection pump you can do the job and save yourself a bunch of $.Older John Deere engines used the Roosa Master pumps a lot,try google as I have found details to do CAV injection pumps on the internet.Good luck and we like pictures!

mad murdock

Thanks bush mechanic.  I will be sure and take some "stills" of the devastation.  The machine is tore down pretty well right now.  I will see if I can get some pics on here tomorrow. Too slow of a connection at home, (though satellite is much better than dial-up!)  I have been able to glean some info on one of the tractor sites, I have a few irons in the fire, one of them's bound to get warm.  Ol John W. has been a great help  with his input as well.  I am going to take the time to get the right color paint on it during build up. (the engine is already ford blue, the skidder needs more yellow paint, which I have on hand now.) will gas torch tip cleaners work? I don't have drill bits that small, though we do have some .015, .020, .025. , .028 , .032, and .041 stainless steel aircraft safety wire at the shop that does a good job cleaning orifices on the aircraft stuff when needed.  Thanks again!
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mad murdock

Some good news from the dimensional checks  all 4 bores are at standard size and taper is from .002-.004 and out of round is from 0 to .002 on the worst one.  light scoring on one bore, which will come out without having to go too big.  I will be cleaning the bores with a real good precision hone, and then see what the size gets to.  If need be I can get ahold of a boring bar.  3 pistons have cracke d and broken lands between the 1, 2, or 3 compression rings, and a couple of the pistons have broken rings.  I am amazed that the thing even ran. From what I can glean so far about the injection pump, giving it a good going over and renewing where required will eliminate the starting issues.  The crank end play is tight, and the conn rod bearing journals look very good.  I am going to make sure the crankpins are not out of round, if they are good, then I should be able to measure up, and compare bearing wear, amd not have to replace anything else but the pistons and rings.  Going to work over the head tomorrow.  Any recommended sources for ford engine parts at a good price?? I'm all ears.  pics to post tomorrow.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

bushmechanic

Sure sounds like the old girl is worth puttin some money into.I got several engine kits from AGkits.com good prices and good gear and if it is not listed on thier website contact them they probally have access to what you want.Tip cleaners for injectors are really small and specialized I wouldn't use anything else if I were you because you could mess up the spray pattern.What were your issues with starting the engine?I think you should run a new set of mains and rod bearings into her as your gone this far,not that much extra-good insurance.I saw some videos on you tube of injection pump overhauls may be of some help to you.

isawlogs


I would also check with NAPA, I have got many parts from them for my old Oliver here.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

John Woodworth

News sounds good, you are seeing the aftermath of either in the damage to your pistons, if you can clean up the bore stay with standard, if you bore remember these are floating pistons which expand with heat so check on the correct clearances, also machine shops when they bore will leave it slightly undersize and then hone it to the specified size. Still looking for pump info.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

mad murdock

Thanks for the info, and John thanks for looking into the injection pump data.  My phone cord wont work syncing my computer to the phone so I will have to wait till tomorrow or later this evening to upload the photos so far.  Been busy chasing helicopters last 2 days.  I'll be cleaning things up and prepping the cylinders for new parts which I will measure up one more time before I order, then hopefully get parts next week and start building it up again. 8)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mog5858

good luck i re-did  my ford 172 last winnter just a freshin up as when i got the tj i was froze right up. i will see if i can get the pump spec from the local guy that did my pump. 1000 got me everything repilt and back to a little better than new. take it eazy on the rubber for the injeter lines that go in the vale cover. i could not fine and new ones. the old guy in town had 2 in OLD stock that he just gave me and fix up the other best too. dose not sound lile you need it but i have 1 sleave for that if you need can with a new piston i need. do you have 5 piston rings or 4? 125 got me the piston and sleave. have fun and keep us posted

mad murdock

Quote from: isawlogs on May 04, 2011, 08:28:06 PM

I would also check with NAPA, I have got many parts from them for my old Oliver here.
Thanks for the suggestion isawlogs!  I did check with my local NAPA store and they actually have a line on the parts for the engine cheaper than anyone online has them for. ($81.00 for a piston).  mog5858-thanks for the encouragement.  I have the 5 ring pistions and no sleeves in the block.  I am pretty confident that after preparation on the cylinder bores, I will be within spec for STD size pistons.  I will check once I get the prep work done.  Should be by mid week this week.

finallly got some pics!view of the engine after teardown.  this thing was pumping some oil!
cylinder close up before piston removal.  (camera-phone is not too good.  I will  get some pics with a better camera).

some of the outer skin pieces, and radiator.

the mysterious injection pump ;) I will get the heart of this beast fixed up before I put it back to pumping again.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mad murdock

finally located a precision hone tool, (Blue Point, Lisle mod#1500). This is a good tool, I did one cylinder, and then ol'Murphy struck, I broke a stone. :(  Going to get more tomorrow, so I can get the block done and get innards' back in this machine.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mad murdock

Got the new stones for the hone, and an air drill to turn it, and got the rest of the cylinders prepped.  After honing the cyl. bores are at 3.901", still well within spec for standard pistons/rings, so I am scouring sources for the best price on Ford pistons PN 313879, ring set PN C5NN6149AA (5 ring pistons), head gasket, and I will be set to put the engine back together.  I am still looking for data on the DBGCVV429-8AJ injector pump.  I may have to just bite the bullet and exchange it with a shop, don't want to give up on it yet though, I still have a couple moreo sources to check out first.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mad murdock

I was fortunate to get some good info on the fuel injection pump from one of the rebuild shops in the area, they gave me the PN of the seal kit, which contains the flexshaft and all the seals for the pump(all the parts that wear out).  Less than $37.00.  I just need to exercise care in disassembly and get the dots lined up for it to be timed properly on reassembly, then I can test it on my test bench (the skidder).  Basically it is a 2 stage oil pump, the first stage is a vane type pump and the second stage (high pressure), is a gerotor pump.  I found a sleeve/piston kit that contains all the rings/pistons with wrist pins and keepers and the gaskets I need (the ones I can't make, i.e. intake/exhaust, and head), for about 400.  So far so good.  I will get it put back together and post pics/results of the operation.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

John Woodworth

Did you get new wrst pin bushings? if not they should be replaced.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

Coon

You may as well do the bearings and seals in the bottom end as well seeing as you got it down this far.  Shouldn't cost you a whole lot more as long as the parts can be bought.  Extra insurance if you know what I mean.  ;)
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

mad murdock

Quote from: John Woodworth on May 17, 2011, 01:56:32 AM
Did you get new wrst pin bushings? if not they should be replaced.
I am going to check the fit on the ones I have, I am also going to be running my steel parts through magnetic particle inspection (just happen to have a magnaflux machine in our shop ;)). If the fit is not within spec, I will get new ones, they are about 10 bucks a piece.  As far as the crank seals and bearings go, I will replace if the lower conn rod bearing/crank pin clearance does not gauge out correctly.
I will be busy cleaning, dimensional checking and mag particle checking over the next couple days in between the flurry of helicopter work we have going in the shop right now.  Thanks again for your help/tips/suggestions!!  I really appreciate all your input! Thanks again Jeff for this Forum 8) 8)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

bushmechanic

A magnaflux machine at your disposal I am sooooo jealous right now!Did you get a good 60 degree crosshatch pattern on the bores?Do aviation engines be rebuilt like that,I mean the same as automotive or industrial?How was the cylinder head,I mean the valves and seats but I guess you have access to valve grinding tools also-you luckey bugger!So glad everything is going good for you as I love the old iron and it's great to see it rebuilt to spec. 

mad murdock

piston engines are piston engines.  Air cooled aircraft engines just go together with a little sloppier tolerances in some areas, as you would guess.  Not unlike the differences in buildup of a Deutz over say a liquid cooled variety diesel, mostly in the valve train, because of elongation of the cylinder from ambient temp, to running temp, so you have cold clearances and hot clearances.  Cyl. wall prep is the same, you are wanting the same effect in either engine (Aircraft, vs. automotive/tractor/industrial).  Yeah, the magnaflux machine is a nice addition we made to our tooling about a year ago or so, picked it up for abt. $1500 from an old school helicopter operator in WA state. It has about a 60" capacity between the head and tail stock, and it also has a 16" coil on it, plus it is AC, so de-mag with the same machine, makes it a nice package all around!  I pulled the valves out of the head last night,and got a bit of de-carboning to do to get a good read on the seat area.  So far they look pretty even on the seats, no leaks or distortions, I think I will be able to get by with a good hand lapping after a thorough cleaning.  No broken springs or anything like that, even the guide seal rubber looks supple might even reuse them.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

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