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Pulling out the stopper on the Mississippi?

Started by Stan snider, May 01, 2011, 11:54:49 AM

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Cedarman

Arky, I'm with you.  I thought that was how river bottoms got to be fertile.  I suppose right where the rush of water is that there will be erosion, but as the water spreads out it slows down and drops its load.   They say it will be July before the water leaves the land.
Will the landowners be compensated for their losses and who will reimburse them?  Or is it just part of the deal with the devil that the levees protected them in the past and farmed at their own risk?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

chain

The blast was heard and felt for at least 40 miles around and in five states! Disappointing to me as many people are happy about destroying the farms at Birds Point. It is like a victory of sorts, not that saving Cairo was the point, very disgusting. Turned political, socialist vs. people who try to make a living off the land.

This whole delta was once part of the Gulf of Mexico. Ice age and many, many other geological factors helped make the delta what it is and isn't. But, for millions of years the Ohio and Mississippi rivers changed courses, earthquakes change drainages, but back in those times, there were no man-made levees to constrict the channels and floods, the water spread out over a vast flood plain from near Cape Girardeau, Mo. to the Gulf.

If any of you caould find a copy of "Missouri Landscapes: aTour through Time" this volume could explain the many factors in the evolution of our present day geological and topographical make up in the mid -America region.

Larry

I was up in north Missouri during the flood of 93.  When a levy broke a lot of times it would cut a ditch 30 feet deep and 100 yards across.  The flood waters would drop up too 6 feet of sand on the ground.  Nothing at all like a natural flood.  Some of the flooded ground was ok if no current and was returned to productivity.

After the flood the FSA offered cost sharing to get rid of the sand.  I can't remember for sure but I think they would only try if the sand was less than 18" deep.  There still is a lot of ground up there that is only good for riding four wheelers on.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Faron

It's not impossible for  the river to cut a new channel down the floodway.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

Magicman

Quote from: chain on May 03, 2011, 12:26:49 PM
but back in those times, there were no man-made levees to constrict the channels and floods
Are you saying that you wish that there were no levees now?

We built artificial levees and channels and put the river where nature never intended for it to go.  When nature then flexes it's muscles, as it is doing now, there is not enough room inside of those levees for the water.  Something has gotta give....somewhere.  No body wants that "somewhere".

Just wait until the high water gets to South Louisiana.   :-\
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Magicman

Quote from: Faron on May 03, 2011, 01:22:44 PM
It's not impossible for  the river to cut a new channel down the floodway.

That could easily happen in the Atchafalaya River basin.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

chain

Reported shortly after noon today,  a Tow-boat barge has hit the I-1-55 bridge which spans the Mississippi river between Dyersburg, Tn. and Caruthersville, Mo., closing all traffic until inspection cleared. At least the second time of collison at this bridge last 6mos.. River pilots have a difficult turn, a treacherous stretch, partly because of a private levee is still standing with flood waters at the top and very near to the bridge, choking the channel width. Another issue very hard to understand, the Corps allowing private levees to affect river flow.

davch00

I live in Southeast Missouri and was for the Corps. blowing the levee. My 2 cents is if you willingly build a house and farm behind the levee or in that floodway you should be willing to accept that its going to flood. The floodway was being used for what it was built for. Why should people upstream have to pay because you living in a floodplain.

Banjo picker

I think I will throw my hat in with davch00....by the way davch00 what took you so long to post....Many of the folks that live below the dam at Pickwick have homes built on piling or stlits of some kind....I guess I will get flack for this view point , but it won't be the first time I have differed with my contemporiaries...One of Miss. ole time senators from years gone by either Stennis or Eastland said and I quote...."In case of rising water...seek higher ground"...   Living in Mississippi that is good advice since the high point is 806 feet...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Magicman

Welcome davch00, to the Forestry Forum.   :)

We are still a week and a half away from our crest.  Folks are either getting up or getting out.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

chain

Quote from: davch00 on May 03, 2011, 05:29:10 PM
I live in Southeast Missouri and was for the Corps. blowing the levee. My 2 cents is if you willingly build a house and farm behind the levee or in that floodway you should be willing to accept that its going to flood. The floodway was being used for what it was built for. Why should people upstream have to pay because you living in a floodplain.

I see it differently also, why would Cairo keep building goverment housing knowing they are in a flood zone? Lets take the two or three hundred thousand victims of the Katrina hurrincane disaster in N.O. The government moved 150,000 to Houston, Tx. Most have stayed in Houston and out of the flood prone N.O. area. For some reason, most folks want to save 2500 people in harms way that could easily have been relocated to other areas.

Another question that is debated: in that most who favored the blasting of the flood relief levees are blaming the farmers and residents of Birds Point for just simply residing there. If this was a Federal Floodway, who the heck allowed them to settle and make farmsteads for more than fifty years ? Hypocrisy is no stranger to the Corps of Engineers, as I've pointed out previously, there are still several private levees inside the main levees causing problems in this flood.

By the way, the bridge and I-1-55 is open for traffic. MODOT reported the collison was a glancing blow to one of the pillars.

timerover51

Cairo, Illinois has been in its present location well over 160 years, and figured very prominently in the US Civil War as both an army and naval base.  As an historian, i would rather not see that much history arbitrarily washed away when another option is available.  As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum and in this thread, part of the problem of the flooding has been the tampering that Man has done to the entire Mississippi-Missouri-Ohio River drainage basin.  Water that used to have time to sink into the ground is now runoff from cities and highways, areas that used to flood and absorb some of the floodwater are now protected by levees which pushes the flood water levels further downstream that much higher.

In my area of Illinois, Lake County, after the massive flooding in 1986, the municipalities and county finally bit the bullet, barred further development in the Des Plaines River flood plain, and then began to recreate the natural floodplain that once existed.  Right now, the Des Plaines Flood Plain project is working as designed, holding a lot of water that used to run off and then flood villages and towns further south in Lake and Cook County.

With respect to the area that is now flooded in Missouri, what the Federal Government needs to do is bite the bullet, ban anyone from moving back into the area, and purchase the property of those who were allowed to built in that area, when that should never have been allowed.  Then the Federal Government and the states on the Mississippi, Ohio, and Missouri Rivers have to sit down and permanently BAN any more development in the flood plain areas, and begin to restore the flood plain that used to exist.  If that is not done, then it will be only a matter of time until the next disastrous flood occurs.

chain

I certainly agree with you on the historical importance of Cairo. I'm some what of a civil war history buff myself. We had a friend that passed away a few years ago, his funeral was at the "Mighty Rivers Worship Center" in Cairo, I'm thinking my friend was buried at Mound City National. We did some living history things together, and participated in the C-span re-enactment of one of the Lincoln-Douglas Debates, in Anna-Jonesboro, Il.

Lots of history in that area, one of my favorites is Columbus-Belmont State park at Columbus Ky, a more beautiful bluff view of the great Mississippi river I've yet to see. The confederates fired cannons across the river in the Battle of Belmont, Mo. to disperse and thwart Gen. Grant's attack on the Rebel camp. Also at Columbus where Rebels strung the chain on pontoon boats across the river to 'catch' Union Gunboats coming down the river from Cairo.

sawman

  According to one of the Corps leaders that was on yesterday at some point, said that Cairo was not the only concern, but the increasing pressure on the entire floodway system throughout the region. There are several reservoirs that have been holding back there release amounts. They are now about to their limits, if not already there. This I can understand.
 We live about 25-30 miles NW of the birds point site, and our house shook and rattled when they
set off the first round.
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chain

Have been checking the National Weather Service river gage every four hours. So far, the 'blow-up' has not lowered the river one inch; in this area below Birds Point, the forecasted crest remains the same.

Reportedly, at Caruthersville, Mo. the crest will come 1/2 foot below the top of their seawall this Sunday. Schools are turning out today, evacuation will begin Friday. National guard working to support the seawall and patroling the Levee. A sea of seep water stands nearly continuously in the fields up and down the outer levee footings. The community is struggling with the realization of evacuation for days or possibly weeks, as well as many other towns up and down the river are facing the same dilemma.

Cedarman

If people want to live and farm in a flood plain it should be their business.  In turn, taxpayers should not have to pay for their losses.  They either buy insurance or self insure.  The Feds already tell us what to do and not to do in too many ways. 
There is a big difference from building subdivisions and shopping malls in a flood plain and farming in a flood plain. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

northwoods1

Quote from: Cedarman on May 04, 2011, 08:25:03 AM
If people want to live and farm in a flood plain it should be their business.  In turn, taxpayers should not have to pay for their losses.  They either buy insurance or self insure.  The Feds already tell us what to do and not to do in too many ways.  
There is a big difference from building subdivisions and shopping malls in a flood plain and farming in a flood plain.  

That is exactly the way I see it too... to take a quote from a book I really enjoyed, "you takes your chances and pays your dues"

Stan snider

"it will be only a matter of time until the next disastrous flood occurs."

The ones who built in this area KNEW that it was a floodway. If the risk was mangable to their operation, then it makes sense to build. Having improvements near a farming operation is a huge asset to productivity. If I was farming enough acres in there I would already be planning what would be built as soon as the levee was repaired. If we are going to ban any development we  would need to be prepared to drive a long ways to farm in the delta because it is so big. Hundred mile drives on a tractor?

It will be a lawyers heyday!

Uncle Sam will probably bail them out anyway,  well maybe not since the farm lobby is not near as strong as big business. 

chain

It's a done deal now. I'm hoping some of you will vacation near Cairo, Il. this summer and stroll down 'town' some evening to examine the history preserving efforts of some of the townspeople of boarded up and half burned-out buildings; yet, very neat housing projects..in the flood zone. [sarcasm] ;)

fishpharmer

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chain

I think the last blasting of the Birds Point flood way will come this a.m. Those shock waves from the blasts travel a long ways through water; meanwhile as we continue to help the helpless Illinois folks, our river continues to rise rapidly. Banks, schools, most everything closing up today. Reportedly no motel rooms in 100 miles.

I hope all the political bantering and baffoonery, related to this flood of the century, was worth it. But look out below, folks in Mississippi, Louisana, Arkansas..may God Bless and keep you from harm in this calamity!

Tom

My little cousin wrote this note today in our family missive.

QuoteThe Mississippi (four crooked letters, total) is due to crest in Baton Rouge at 46.5 feet on May 16, which will be a new record. Allegedly the levees are designed to hold 48 feet in Baton Rouge. I am sure they (the gumint) will open both the Morganza Floodway, and the Bonnet Carre Spillway, to take the pressure off. It will be interesting to see. The last time they opened the Morganza Floodway they almost inadvertently changed (permanently) the course of the Mississippi. Apparently all the lingering cold weather in the northern half of the US is causing the stormy weather in the south, and too much rain in the north. Spring rains plus snow melt gives us plenty of water down here. I recall once back in the mid 1980's we had ice floes in the Mississippi all the way to New Orleans. Our water supply temperature to the plant was running just two degrees F above freezing. Speaking of cold weather, Baton Rouge set a new low temperature record for May 4th at 46 degree F. The old record of 47 degrees was in 1950.

doctorb

I try not to shoot off my mouth here when I don't know what I don't know, but I am interested, mesmerized and astonished at all of this, so I might be way off base.  It's a big DanG river and, given enough water, it's gonna go wherever it wants.  

When it floods, peoples lives, towns, homes and farms are washed away.  Yet we give them the opportunity to buy flood insurance.  As far as I know, the US government is the only entity that sells flood insurance.  So when disasters happen, us taxpayers foot the bill.

That makes no sense to me at all.  If you want the risk of living there, fine.  I am sure it's great for all but 2 out of every 100 years.  But for those two, and we're having one of them this year, we have this "what were we thinking?" moment.  Why don't we require those that live there to:  (in no particular order)
1.  Do so at their own risk
2.  Only construct homes and buildings that are raised and can withstand greater than a 100 year flood.
3.  Only offer insurance to those homeowners that comply with number 2.
4.  Live outside the flood plain.

It's like New Orleans.  It was gonna happen, and it will happen again in the future.  I do feel very sorry for all the people who are trying their best to live through this.  But I think that there will come a time that you've just got to say, "Nope, you can't live there."
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

rbhunter

I can see both sides of the debate. I agree that one should accept the risk if they are to build or farm in a flood plain. But what makes the best use of the food plain? Is it a wise use of the flood plain to build residential areas in the flood plain,  farm in the flood plain, or just leave the flood plain natural? The area being flooded this time is over 200 hundred square miles but I am sure that it is just a small percentage of the area being farmed accross the United States that is in the flood plain. There are many residential areas in flood plains protected by levies, my parents live in the Kansas River Valley in Topeka and were prepared to evacuate quickly if needed back in 1993.

"Said the robin to the sparrow, I wonder why it must be, these anxious human beings rush around and worry so?"
"Said the sparrow to the robin, Friend I think it must be, they have no heavenly father, such as cares for you and me."
author unknown. Used to hang above parents fireplace.

Tom

What is a flood plain?  While most people in Florida have concerns about living in a swamp, most live in a flood plain.  Entire towns and counties are in Flood Plains.  DanG and his co-horts in the panhandle on the Gulf are in our mountains at 300 feet.

Orlando (Disney World), the destination of the USA, is in a swamp.  The Tampa/St. Petersburg metroplex is not much above sea level and is the retirement mecca for Canada.  Miami is a sand ridge between the Atlantic and the Great Swamp of the Everglades. The whole middle of the southern portion of the State is Lake Okeechobee.   The St. Johns River runs from Indian River County in the South to Jacksonville in the North East and drops less than 30 feet in over 300 miles.

If we moved from the flood plane, the only inhabited place would be a few acres north of Tallahassee.  :D

I agree that there is some personal responsibility to be taken by people who build in the sand dunes of the Gulf or Atlantic, or on a slab in one of the many swamps, but there are reasons that people live in some dangerous or intimidating geography and their willingness benefits them and us as well.  I think that's what makes it hard to write someone off because a natural disaster that wouldn't bother us, wiped them out. 

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