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Pulling out the stopper on the Mississippi?

Started by Stan snider, May 01, 2011, 11:54:49 AM

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Stan snider

The Mississippi is only .24 feet from having authorization to blow the levee at Birds Point Missouri to activate the floodway which hasn't been done since 1937. It will inundate 205 square miles and have up to 500,000 cubic feet per second of flow.

It seems to me that this hasn't made the news it deserves with commodity prices where they are and planting delayed. 130,000 acres of cropland in the floodway much of which is already flooded will be severely damaged by the flowing water where now it is only backwater. About 100 farms in the area and 300 people.

It is raining in the area now.

http://rivers.anglerguide.com/flows/hw3.php?forecast=riversobs&gauge=CIRI2

http://www.mvm.usace.army.mil/hydraulics/memphis.asp            On this site go to water control,then gauge readings,then current river stages, then Mississippi ,then look at the plots on the right. Cairo is the Key for the floodway opening. One place I read said 60' was the trigger point and another said 61. By the shape of that graph 61 looks well within reach.

WH_Conley

I have been following the story about this. Some mighty tough calls to make. There is no good solution.
Bill

Magicman

And no way of knowing what affects it will have on the lower Mississippi.  There are several weak links.
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Cedarman

With both the Ohio and Mississippi at flood stage where they meet and plenty of water headed south, what are they saying about the lower Mississippi?  I remember a few years ago that they said the Big Muddy could change course if there was a major flood and leave New Orleans without a river.  Have they eliminated that scenario?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

pineywoods

Yeah, all that water gotta go somewhere, and for the most part somewhere is down the mississippi to the gulf. Starting just downstream from St Louis, it is hemmed in on both sides by levees. Plus there are several large rivers that dump into the mississippi on the way. Tennessee, Arkansas, White, Red, Yazoo, plus numerous bayous and creeks. Just remember most of New Orleans is several feet below sea level.
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LOGDOG

Yep, tough call is right. I was reading about it this morning. You know there's going to be a sinking feeling in more than one person's stomach if they decide to blow that thing and let the water out. This has really been a bad year for weather related and nature induced disasters.

gunman63

granted  they flood 130,000 acres,  but the town of cario  , which  is  a concern and the  reason for  blowing it, and its 2300 residents,  mite not flood,  nothing saying both   mite  not  flood of nothings  done,  glad im on the  north end of the  river.

Magicman

Some similar decisions had to be made even in 1927.  Sometimes "some" has to be sacrificed to save "much".

Boils will also be a major concern further down river.  Hopefully there won't be a catastrophic failure and flood the Atchafalaya River basin.
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

timerover51

Given that big sand boil that some of the news outlets have been reporting behind the levee at Cairo, I just hope and pray that we do not wind up with the worst of both outcomes,  the levee blown at Bird's Point and the levee at Cairo washing out because they waited so long.  As for you folks further downstream, I will keep you in my prayers.  This has been a very tough year for weather so far.

chain

The Birds Point floodway issue is still hotly contested, even the Missouri Govornor and our Congresswoman oppose the blowing of the emergency flood-relief levee. As of this time the Corps has moved their explosives barges  in from Ky.and  across the river to a point near the intended breach and are loading an apparatus with explosives and will await the final order for "fire-in-the-hole!".

We've been fighting this flood tooth and toenail for over a month now and losing. Another 4" rainfall today with another 6"-8" by tuesday morning. While re-re-running water furrows through the corn fields, the east end nearest the levee ran spring-clear water, coming up out of the ground as an artesian spring, we call it seep water; then, the water is running like a fresh spring creek down to the drainage. The west end of this field the dust was beginning to blow again from 20-30 mph winds.

Many opinions and arguments prevail each day over a man-made breaching and probable destroying of beautiful farms and ending the livelyhoods of dozens of wonderful farm families. Personally, I could not pull the trigger on Birds Point; my argument is that  Cairo, Illinois has had  nearly 75 years to improve their flood control from the disastrous '37 flood as most every town and city have done all up and down the river! Think about that, almost..seventy..five.. years ..to prepare!

ARKANSAWYER

  Well all I have is bad news.  The White River which is fed by Beaver Lake and Table Rock Lake are overflowing now into Bull Shoals Lake which is flooding now and having to dump into the White.  The Buffalo River is flooding into the White so it is all headed to the Mississippi along with the Arkansas River which is running levy to levy right now.  It is raining in Arkansas and has been for several days and tomorrow as well.  Them folks down stream better get their life jackets on.
ARKANSAWYER

Kansas

I would hate to be the Army Corps of Engineers trying to decide who to save. I remember in 93 when they stopped releasing water from a couple of resevoirs in Kansas due to flooding on the Missouri. The day came they had to finally lift the floodgates or risk the dams. Housing additions were flooded along with thousands of acres of farmland by Manhattan.  If they had been releasing all along it wouldn't have happened. That fall I took a flight from St Louis to Kansas City. You could see the brown from the plane where the Missouri had flooded so bad. You could see why they tried to hold off releasing. Sometimes there are no good decisions.

Magicman

Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide? http://books.simonandschuster.com/Rising-Tide/John-M-Barry/9780684840024

I have.  It has never been a question of if.  It has always been when.  It may not be now or this time, but it will happen.  Man only has so much control of the Mississippi River.  We can levee it and try to control it, but under a given set of circumstances, she will contain more water than we can control.
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Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

chain

Quote from: Magicman on May 01, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide? http://books.simonandschuster.com/Rising-Tide/John-M-Barry/9780684840024

I have.  It has never been a question of if.  It has always been when.  It may not be now or this time, but it will happen.  Man only has so much control of the Mississippi River.  We can levee it and try to control it, but under a given set of circumstances, she will contain more water than we can control.

I've heard about that book but I don't think I could read it just now. Everyone up here is on pins and needles as the rising river approaches the '37 flood level. Our new crest is supposed to be about two feet higher. After church today we ate lunch at our usual resturant, the waitresses and owners were sweeping seep water off the floor of the dining room! The water just kept bubbling up through small seams in the tile; the levee is only fifty yards away.

We're going to hang tough until tuesday, if the crest is raised we plan to check out of 'Dodge' for a few days! :o

ARKANSAWYER

  Talking to a guy at church last night and he was committing on all the rain and how bad the flooding was.  This gentleman who was in his 90's said it rained like this in these hills most of his life.  He said the problem was
(and it makes alot of sense) the fact that the rain got to the creeks and rivers faster.  He said in the old days you would get 3 or 4 days of rain and then the creek would come up.  Now you get a hard rain and a few hours later the creek is up and in a few hours it is on it's way back down.  We have drained everything like the roads, all the hard parking lots, and even our fields.  He said we are running the water off, like it standing in a field is a bad thing.  This is why wells are going dry as the water runs off instead of seeping in.  Our lakes are full up so this water has to go down hill from here.
ARKANSAWYER

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Magicman

In many ways our practices are partially to blame.  Clear cutting, channeling, levees, damming, parking lots, etc. all contribute to faster runoff and subsequently higher river stages.  Of course all of these have also contributed to our present day way of life.  This should be no place or time for playing the blame game.

I hope that when all of this is finally behind up, we won't be saddled with "knee jerk" reactions and regulations.  We will always have to survive and live within the uncertain boundaries dictated by the weather.  The recent tornadoes refreshed our memories of that fact, and now this flood.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

pineywoods

Folks, this concerns a lot more than just cairo Ill. and/or some farms. The mississippi is hemmed in by levees from the boot heel of mo all the way to the gulf. A major breach in any of them could flood nearly a third of arkansas and half of louisiana. I was told yesterday that the la. hiway dept has started hauling dirt, sand, and clay to re-enforce the levees on the la. side. Then there's new orleans. There is a diversion gate in place a few miles upriver from the city. It dumps some of the mississippi river flow into lake pontchatrane. Water from that lake is what flooded new orleans during katrina. Of even more concern is the atchafalya basin. Here the mighty miss has been trying to change it's course for decades, taking a shortcut to the gulf and bypass new orleans.  That would just about wipe out the coastal marshes and leave the port of new orleans high and dry.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
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Larry

Quote from: Magicman on May 01, 2011, 10:38:26 PM
Has anyone ever read the book Rising Tide?

That was a hard read for me...something you don't knock off in a evening or three.

Lots more to the book than just a flood.  On the recommended list for an understanding of the south and politics of the time..

Was grits ever mentioned? ??? ???
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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chain

Thirty or forty years ago their was a move on by landowners, some municpalities, and even State-run interest to build levees inside the primary levees of both  east- west sides of the Miss. River. Some of these were 'spur' levees connected to the main levee running perpendicular or a right angle a length down the river bank to throw the current of a flooding river back to the other side, other private levees often protected a section or two of farm land tieing it in on both ends to the primary levees. This has constricted the  flood plain of the area inside the levees.

Lots of problems with those levees as when they do fail they often damage land and river banks causing sanding and a virtual wasteland for years and years. The Corps of Engineers were lax on this matter for quite a long time yet, still, many of those private levees remain and contribute even to severe erosion problems at much lower flood stages, also contributing to higher and more dangerous flooding.

In '93 on the Missouri river, they found out the hard way when the great flood hit and tore up vast acreages of farmland and destroyed important river ecology. This flood even took out century old homes and cemeterys once thought to be far above the flood plain. Meanwhile, the rain continues to fall steadily here, will we be next?

ARKANSAWYER

  Well we got another 3 inches today but looks like it will clear out tonight.  We could use a little dry weather.
  I lived in Mississippi back in 73 when it flooded.  I remember riding to town in the car and the only dry land was around a house or two that were diked  and the road way which was built up about 6 ft over the rest of the land.  I used to mow snakes in the  yard till it got to stinking to bad and GrandMa made me stop. ;D  The catfish farm up the road flooded and I was catching cats out of the ditch in the front yard.  I would not wish that flood on anyone.
ARKANSAWYER

chain

Presently I have 6.7" in rain guage at 9:00 p.m. from beginning Saturday night. The latest news on Bird Point is the destruction of the levee will begin tonight, three seperate blasts, taking and estimated six hours to complete the breaching.

They added another 1.5 ft. on to our river crest this evening.

At least, the 'albatross' will be off our necks, here in Missouri.

sandhills

I heard on the news tonight they were going to blow it too, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved.  I can't imagine the ramifications, of either choice really, doing it or not doing it, just glad it's not my call.

ARKANSAWYER

  The morning news just showed the explosion of the levy,  It is done!  There was a guy on there telling how this will destroy 130,000 acres of prime farm land.  What he does not understand it was flooding that made that farm land.  He said the land would be destroyed and unusable for years.  Depending on how long it takes the water to recedes may determine if they get a crop in this year or not.  But it is possible that the next few years crops will be the better for it.  There was a field here that got flooded in 2008 and when the water went down he 3 ft of new sand on his hay field.  He sold most of the sand for $7.50 a ton and disced his field and has one of the best bermuda grass hay fields in the area.
ARKANSAWYER

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