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Boron to kill bugs on lumber

Started by oscar not the grouch, April 29, 2011, 12:50:11 PM

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oscar not the grouch

I had some logs milled last fall which showed evidence of bug infiltration. Has anyone used Boron to kill bugs on the lumber? And how should I mix it. I can buy it for $3 something per 1/2 kg.
Tks

Buck

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SwampDonkey

20 Mule Team Borax from the wife's laundry will work, mix the box in a 3 gallon pale of hot water to dissolve. Around $20 a 2 kg box.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

oscar not the grouch

Yes Boron, Borax, Borate, it's all in the same family. this is what I found found on asite when I Google BORON.

Concentration: 1kg of powder per 25 litres of water for Woodworm, 5% (mild to medium attacks) and 2.5 kgs of powder per 25 litres of water for Woodworm, 12.25% (heavy attack), Death Watch Beetle, Dry Rot and Wet Rot.

Does this sound right?
Tks
Oscar

SwampDonkey

I would use the whole box in 3 or 4 gallons. Do they quantify "mild", "heavy", I bet not, so just use the whole box in the scrub pale.  ;)

Be reminded that borax will kill roots of trees and shrubs and flowers, so watch where your working.

A concoction with sugar added will kill them black yard ant colonies to as they carry it back to the nest.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Larry

Here is a thread that may be of interest.  I had it book marked for reference.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,25537.0.html

I could never find the Solubor locally.  I did eventually find it online but the price was exorbitant plus shipping.

I concocted my own recipe. Disclaimer...I haven't enough experience with it to know for sure if it works.  I'm also using it as a preventive spray, not to kill an active infestation.  Found a source of ag boron and used that.  50 pounds of 14.3% boron for $40. 

Here is the actual recipe.  Six to seven pounds boron (one heaping big coffee can).  1/2 to 1 gallon ethylene glycol, and enough water to make a 4 gallon solution.  I dumped the whole mess into a stainless steel cream can.  The boron will not go into solution until its heated...if I remember right that was around 185 degrees.  With a 1/2 gallon of ethylene glycol the the solution moves into the wood in about 24 hours.  With 1 gallon the wood stays wet for a week and is a bit sticky.  Spill any on concrete and it stays wet even longer.

I did try SD's recipe.  I tried to spray it through a back pack sprayer and it plugged up tight...took me two hours to clean the DanG thing out. :D :D :D :D  And it wasn't a bit funny at the time. :-[
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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SwampDonkey

Yes, get it dissolved good and use it "hot" in the sprayer. You can't shoot a pasty mess through a sprayer too good. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

barbender

Yep, mix it up with HOT water and spray it right away.
Too many irons in the fire

WDH

There is a Ag product called Beau-Ron D that is used as a source of boron as a micro nutrient.  It is the same chemical compound as Timbor.  It is 20% boron.  It is much cheaper as it is labeled as a fertilizer rather than a pesticide.  Mix 1 pound of the powder to 1 gallon of hot water.  It works well through a back-pack sprayer.  Use it all up and do not let it sit in the sprayer for a long period as it will precipitate out somewhat and clog up the works.  When finished, be sure to flush several gallons of water through the sprayer. 

The chemical compound is given below:

(Disodium octaborate tetrahydrate)
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Boron (B)* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.96%
*Derived from Sodium borate.
*4.8 pounds of BEAU-RON D provides 1 pound elemental Boron.
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timerover51

Reading this thread keeping reminding me of the Death Valley Days TV show, which was sponsored by 20 Mule Team Borax.  I can remember when Ronald Reagan was the host for the show, and he also appeared in several episodes.  Anyone else ancient like me?

Ed_K

Ok,Rita has a ? if you use boron and mix some sugar with it,do the ants eat the wood to get at the stuff?
Ed K

SwampDonkey

Nope, the carpenter ants don't eat wood, they make galleries for the grubs and living quarters. They take the sugar and borax back to the nest as food and kill the colony. I was  referring to the black ants that make those big mounds in the woods, usually they make small mounds on the lawns. Same deal, knocks'm dead at the nest. Just watch out where you put the stuff because it will kill about anything including plant roots. I got too close to a stripe maple last year and burnt it up, because the next was being built near one stalk. Trying to get a clump going on the back lawn for it's big showy leaves, yellow flowers and lime green seed. Plus the green/white striped bark.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: oscar not the grouch on April 29, 2011, 12:50:11 PM
I had some logs milled last fall which showed evidence of bug infiltration. Has anyone used Boron to kill bugs on the lumber?

Lots of good advice given in this thread, but I'd like to as for clarification on one point - Did the logs have bugs in them before you milled them, or did the lumber get bugs in it after you milled them?

If the logs had bugs in them, then sawing and drying the lumber will effectively kill whatever it was that was attacking them. The beetles that attack dry lumber are not the same as the ones that attack green logs.

If you are sawing a species that is prone to powderpost beetle infestation, like red oak, hickory, or maple, then a boron spray is a good preventative treatment.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

WDH

Powderpost beetles love pecan.  They love hickory and ash.  I have had them in persimmon, too. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

oscar not the grouch

Hi,
Tks all for the replies. OK, this is the situation. I cut the trees (tamarack and white spruce) in November of 2009 and the logs stayed under the snow for that winter. I was only able to get them out of the wood in September 2010 and had them milled in 2x and boards etc in November 2010, which I piled, stickered and covered the lumber which stayed under the snow this last winter.

Therefore, the bugs/worms got in the logs when they were laying on the ground during the summer of 2010. The blade would sometime slice the worms in half, there were lots of boring holes. The guy who ran the sawmill was joking saying I would have natural air conditioning in the walls...ha!ha!

So, to answer Dodgy Loner question, the bugs/worms were already in the logs (which were half green/half dry) when we milled them.

Therefore, like you say, I may not have to treat the lumber with Boron????....the blade, the winter and the drying may have taken care of them.....I would be happy with that.
Tks again to ALL ...
Oscar

WDH

Yes, drying the lumber will put an end to these species of bugs.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dodgy Loner

You are in luck. I think it is safe to assume the bugs are dead :)

WDH - I have been lucky so far. I've only had a small infestation of pp beetles in some red maple. I caught it early and sorted out all the boards that showed any sign of beetles and burned them. I sprayed the rest of the susceptible lumber with a solution of boric acid. So far, so good!
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Yes, those kinds of borers (sawyer beetle) will be gone as the wood dries. We don't get powder post much and another bug that stains them is ambrosia/engraver, but they will got gone to when drying continues. Borax also acts as a bleach with the formation of hydrogen peroxide when added to water.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

weisyboy

we use boron - borax to treat susceptible timbers sapwood against Lyctus borers, the higher the moisture content of the timber the better it works.

we use a dipping method, where packs or peices of sawn timber are submersed in a solution of boron and watter for 3 - 10 minutes, the watter has to be around 50-60 degrees, the timber must then be stored in covered stacks for 2 weeks, to soak in and evaporate, the treatment will last forever so long as the timber isnt exposed to rain, as it washes out.

the timber can also be sprayed or pressure treated either way the solution had to be at around 60 deg c.

we have about 98% success rate with this.

the proper stuff can be got from, http://www.osmose.com.au/Osmose%20liquid%20boron.htm

its a colourless treatment so it is great for appearance grade timber, and we use it on feature posts and beams.
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WDH

Dodgy,

I have taken to treating all my oak, ash, maple, pecan, etc. green off the saw before stickering.  It is a major pain in the butt log, and it takes a lot of time.  I do not have the capability of dipping the boards en-mass like Weisy describes.  I use a backpack sprayer. 

As a result, I have developed an extensive hatred for powderpost beetles.  I cannot afford to include powderpost beetles in the air-dried lumber that I sell to woodworkers  :).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Danny, your method of treating before stickering is really the only way to prevent infestation.  Without dipping, there is just no other way to completely coat the lumber.  I use a garden sprayer and Tim-bor. (sp?).

As a side note, Oak and Pecan that was dead standing will have very valuable stained worm holes that will penetrate completely through the log.  This lumber will bring a premium.  Furniture builders often try to imitate these stained holes.
I have built a bedroom suit, various furniture and clocks from wormy Pecan.
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shenandoahsawmill

I mix my own powered borax in hot water and apply with a garden sprayer while the water is hot. I also put a fine screen around the end of the pic-up tube inside the sprayer canister. It keeps the borax powder that does not go into solution from clogging up the plumbing. I can't seem to get it all into slolution. I have not had great sucess with borax as it seems to take two applications and two bug cycles to see a difference in bug populations. I have also been using microwave bug treatment. I use this method for treating bowl blanks for the lathe before storing them. Works great. I am cautiously thinking about microwave treatment of beams and material infested off the bandmill. I bought a book called the poor man's ray gun (don't laugh) from desert publications. It gives instructions on how to take a microwave oven apart and canibalize the guts to use on larger surfaces. Guess I will have to get my lead Carhart overalls on before using this thing. Or at least have a remote switching device. I think the microwaves would have much better penetration than borax in solution and be a lot cheaper and faster. I could also reheat my half eaten, cold grilled cheese sandwich on top of the lumber pile as a side benefit to killing bugs.   Gary

ljmathias

Another option is a paint roller with a screw on extension for the handle- I've used that with the unheated but stirred a lot mix that was described somewhere on the forum: 20 mule team plus boric acid dissolved in a mix of anti-freeze and water.  I dip and spread pretty fast, flip the boards on the stack to line them up over the stickers, put on the last coat and lay down another layer of stickers for the next set of boards.  Seems to work pretty good and also kills the white mold that seems to love the pecan I've cut- makes an awful mess on the lumber and even can get so bad that it glues them together so it can eat more of your wood...   >:(  and yeah, I hate powder post beetles, too- maybe we should start an anti-fan club?

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

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