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Steep hourly charge in MA and looking for thoughts

Started by danf26, April 26, 2011, 09:59:18 AM

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danf26

Hey guys,

Thanks for everyone's input with the question I asked about my driveway being too narrow for a mill or not. Since I last posted here, I've skidded and stacked between 35 and 40 logs next to the driveway, in anticipation for them to be hauled off to a mill soon.

I had been talking to a sawyer about milling with him, but yesterday he told me what he charges and I felt astounded. He said he charges by the hour, and its $100 an hour. It doesnt add up to me. He's running a Woodmizer, which I dont know. I have between 3000 and 4000 board feet by my estimates, and if its just him and me running the mill, I cant imagine hes cranking out more than 300 board feet an hour, at best. So, thats $333 per 1000 board feet, at absolute top capacity. Or a little less than $0.35 per board foot. But the much more likely scenario is we're only going thru 200 board feet an hour, thats $500 per thousand board feet, or $0.50 per board foot.

$0.50 a board foot seems incredibly expensive considering I've skidded the logs out myself, will be paying to haul the logs to him, will myself be his second man on the job while we're milling, and then trucking them back to my property. I am waiting to hear back from him to ask him myself, but I can see any justifications for such a steep price. It seems like I must just be getting ripped off.

I know just an hour or two north of me the going rate is $0.25 a board foot, or $40 an hour tops. Plus, there's a sawyer I know in my same town (backed up with work for a month and half), who's charging $60 an hour. Still sounds steep to me, but almost half what the other man is charging?

Any thoughts? I wont mill this wood with anyone but a local sawyer, but I'm living off of savings here, and am feeling taken advantage of. What all do you think?

ladylake


At $100 a hour I'd fell like a thief.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Magicman

I would drive up from Mississippi and saw for that.   :-\

I didn't go through and check your figures, but I'm sure that you are on target.  Surely there are other sawmills around.  Look at the map above and you may find another sawyer.  That saw price probably puts the lumber near "store bought" lumber and you have donated your logs and labor.

You do need to look at a sample of the  finished product and talk with previous customers of whoever you use.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

danf26

Thanks guys,

Talking to other customers isnt something Ive been thinking about, so that helps. I think its true, that at $100 an hour, its all comparable to store bought, then you add to that the skidding and hauling.

You say you'd feel like a thief, we'll Im feeling like Im about to be robbed.

Dan

Dodgy Loner

I have paid $60 an hour to have wood sawed on several occasions and felt that it was a fair price. Exactly the same situation as yours - I hauled the logs to him and tailed the boards. The price is driven by the local market, but $100 an hour seems excessive if there are less expensive options in your area.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

danf26

Magicman, do you mean the Find a Sawyer/Forester thing when you say look at the map above?

Yeah, there are places around that are less expensive, but if they're available or not is the question. There's a circular saw mill around thats charging 0.35 a board foot, but they can only take logs up to 18' long, and I have two 21 footers. I could always spend a day milling those with my chainsaw mill, but would rather not. The local charging $60 an hour isnt available for a month and a half, and then I know same sawyers a few towns over, one charging 0.35 a board foot, and another $85 an hour, both running LT40s.

I think the big question for each sawyer individually is, how many board feet an hour are we realistically talking about?

sgschwend

Check you cost of living versus the other locations.  On the West coast the cost of living tends to be much higher and the charges are higher too.

Tree species, log sizes, the time spent handling material and the size of the boards cut do influence production rate.  To answer your question 300-500 bf/hr is what I typically could do with either mill.  I did charge $.35/bf back in 2006!

Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Madtowner

Where are you in MA?  I am in northeastern MA and have a Woodmizer LT 15.
From Madawaska Maine and now living in Mass.
John Deere 5420,
WM LT 15.

danf26


beenthere

danf26
Consider that this sawyer ($100 an hour) is telling you he doesn't really want to saw your logs. For what reason, can't say. Maybe ask what he'd charge if you were not helping. ;)

Do you have pics of the logs you've skidded out?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

metalspinner

The sawyer that is busy for the next month and a half is busy for a reason.  I would get on his list then ask if you can show up at one of his jobs in the coming weeks that compares to yours.  You will be able observe his work ethic, habits, quality, output and see his interaction with his customers.  Some practical experience can be gained by you, too, that might allow for more efficient sawing of your logs. 

You are entering a business relationship, but don't lose sight that you could gain friendships along the way.  Sawing in the hot sun and moving logs all day is much less miserable with friendly aquaintances than with grumpy sourpusses. (That's true from each end of the relationship. ;))  Not to mention handing over your hard-earned money to someone you like and respect.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

red oaks lumber

first question is the hour, clock or hour meter. that will make a big differance, hour meter is only really moving when mill is engaged and at full throttle.if he's charging by the wrist clock i would pass on him.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

brdmkr

I have a Lucas and about the best I have done is 200 bdft/hour.  However, at 400/hour you are talking .25/board ft.  An LT70 is reported to cut 800/hour and we have folks here that have done that.  I'd find out how much he normally cuts in an hour before I start thinking he is charging too much.  Would you be mad if he charged .25/board foot and then cut your 4000 board feet in 7 - 8 hours?
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

isawlogs

 My first question to him would be , wich WoodMizer he has . If thats an LT15  :o Then it could be an LT70 that will zip through your logs.
So I aint quite ready to call him a robber just yet.  A little more info is needed for a true opinion to be had.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Magicman

Quote from: danf26 on April 26, 2011, 10:26:08 AM
Magicman, do you mean the Find a Sawyer/Forester thing when you say look at the map above?

I was really talking about the "Members Map".

I recently sawed a nice job where I made $100. per hour.  The job consisted of 7 tree length logs that sawed out 7238 bf of framing lumber.  I bucked the logs, and the entire job took 19 hours including bull shooting.  I did not have to handle any logs, lumber, or slabs.  It's just not that often that you find that high quality logs that have virtually no taper.

 LINK

It's hard to question another sawyer's prices without knowing what his productivity level is.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

danf26

Thats a great question. Does by the hour mean clock hour or hour meter?

4000 BF in 8 hours is 500 BF/hr., which would be fine, but for just him and me, that seems much higher than what reality might amount to.

Once he told me around 4 logs an hour, but each log is really different, so while some will just be beams, others will be nothing but 2xs. The "log amount per hour" seems not particularly precise. Either way, 4 logs an hour, estimating 40 logs, is 10 hours, or $1000. Estimating between 3000 and 4000 BF, thats between 300 and 400 BF an hour. We'll see what he says.

$1000 for 4000 BF is $0.25/BF. $1000 for 3000 BF is $0.33/BF.

Its getting confusing over here.

Here are pictures of the logs, the pile is about 12 logs bigger than whats shown in the first 3 photos:













kderby

Thanks for the pictures. 

I often run on "meter time" ($65 but I am due to raise it).  "On the meter" the customer pays for the mill when it is running, not for the rest of the "visit."  That takes some of the production pressure off me.  It lets me spend more time sharing the experience.  I don't like to document every moment of distraction. ::) ::)

It does not serve the sawyer to "spank" you on price.  Word of mouth is golden.  If both parties are fair, both will come out ahead.  It sounds like a little more communication is in order and then it will be "millin time."

Good question and good discussion.  The customers I usually get feedback from are my customers.  It is interesting to hear another guys customer trying to be fair and learn how things can work.  Again, thanks for the pictures and tell us how it turns out.

Kderby

danf26

Ok guys, thanks for all your feedback today. The decision is narrowed down to two mills, including, believe it or not, the mill originally mentioned in the post. Im hoping to decide tonight.

Caution to whomever reads this: Part of me posting is it helps me think, so you'll read a lot of thinking out loud. Im not asking for anyone to decide for me, if no one were to reply to this post, I still would be getting something from posting it. If anyone does choose to throw in their 2 cents (or more), I wouldnt appreciate it more.

The sawyer running the portable mill is charging $100 an hour. He says at top capacity he can go thru 400 BF/hr., but I should probably think of it at 300 BF/hr. If he does get 300 BF/hr., then thats $0.33 per BF. If Im thinking I have between 3000 and 4000 BF, then we're looking at $990 and $1320 respectively, we can say $1500 to play it safe, but hopefully its faster than that. He's also charging $150 for use of his forwarder, and $50 for his tractor, and $30 per blade. To haul the logs to him, I'd be paying $250 per load, and there's probably one loads worth in there, maybe 2. I would need to rent a trailer ($75 a day), borrow a friends truck, and haul the finished lumber back myself. So, we're talking an estimate of around $1500(milling estimate high)+$150(tractor and forwarder)+$250(safe estimate hauling logs to him)+$225(3 days with trailer), and thats $2125. Could be lower if milling takes less time, could be higher if its 2 loads of logs, not one.

Not far from that sawyer, is a stationary production mill with the whole set up. They run an "energy-efficient computer-controlled linebar resaw" (I have no idea what that is) and charge not by the hour, but a flat rate of $0.33/BF. So, the prices are the same, the difference being while the above sawyers $0.33/BF is inferred, this mill wont vary from that. They can pick up, and re-deliver the finished lumber themselves, $150 each way. So, with them depending on how much board footage, Im looking at between $1290 and $1620.

The latter mill would be more convenient and I can be more certain as to what price to expect, but Im worried I wont get the logs I need. Maybe the fear is uncalled for. Each log has written on both ends (with Sharpie), what I want from the log, whether its an 8x8, 8x10, or as many 2x12 joists as possible. So I guess that all should be pretty straight forward. As long as I take a good tally of what I have written before they pick up the logs, I should know exactly what I'll be getting back. Right? Otherwise, with the bandsaw sawyer, I would see each log as it got milled, and be able to know exactly what was coming off, and make decisions on the spot, if we found rot or if there was too much curve, etc.

I heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed. $30 a blade isn't horrible for the bandsaw, but what if the other sawyer hits hardware? How deep would I be in then?

How do folks out there feel about supporting a local sawyer running a bandsaw versus a local sawyer with a big production business?

Well, I hope to be deciding tonight. The thinking continues.

Peter Drouin

I wouldn,t want to cut them for 500 an hr . all in a hole ,have you tried to roll a 1000 lb log up hill?. and you have them end to end. now I have to move that 1000 lb log sideways to the mill :D :D :D. help the sawer and but them on level ground, on 2 small logs. and line up the centers of the logs.Iv,e seen this before, thats why I go without the mill first to look see, If there  new to cuting.unless the mill is somewhare else and your going to feed the logs to the mill with your tractor? then having them in a hole is ok, just more work for you :D :D, but either way get a bf price that way you know how much you have in your wood and the sawer will have to giddy-up to make a days pay. by the hr theirs no giddy-up :D :D :D 8) 8) 8)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

SAWMILL BUDDY

I dont think $1500 dollars is is all that bad to spend on 4000 bf of lumber. I can sell 4/4 oak all day long at $2.00 bf That adds up to $8000.00  With that being said I let the customer pick  .35 bf or $ 75.00 per hour I prefer the bf price on larger logs. At .35 with my lt40 I can make 75.00 per hr easy And up to 100.00 or more per hr on nice logs. Today I milled 3000 bf of maple and oak in 8 hours.  4000 bf more tomorrow maybe 10 hours. So if he has an lt70 100.00 an hour is not bad. So I let them pick. Makes them feel better about the price. I'm booked for over six weeks now so my prices work for me in my area. There are a few guys around here that charge less and thats ok. I stay busy.

pigman

 
Quotewith the bandsaw sawyer, I would see each log as it got milled, and be able to know exactly what was coming off, and make decisions on the spot, if we found rot or if there was too much curve, etc.
I have found when the customer "helps" me make decisions while sawing my production drops considerably. If the customer gives me a cut list I can plan and saw the most from each log and have good production rate, but if the customer decides what he wants from each log while I am sawing there is more waste and production suffers.
If all possible, make a cut list including length and size of lumber you want and let the sawyer do their job.
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Magicman

Quote from: danf26 on April 26, 2011, 05:44:11 PM
Im hoping to decide tonight. 

I'm trying to understand why you are in such a big hurry. 

Quote from: danf26 on April 26, 2011, 05:44:11 PM
He's also charging $150 for use of his forwarder, and $50 for his tractor, and $30 per blade.

Now you have gone and added much more cost to the $100 per hour guy.

Quote from: danf26 on April 26, 2011, 05:44:11 PM

I heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed. $30 a blade isn't horrible for the bandsaw,

If that is true, it could add up to much more than all of the other cost combined.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

danf26

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 26, 2011, 06:26:12 PM
all in a hole ,have you tried to roll a 1000 lb log up hill?. and you have them end to end. now I have to move that 1000 lb log sideways to the mill

These logs are stacked not for the bandsaw, but to be moved to the mill. We unfortunately were shy on space for a mill to come to us.

Quote from: SAWMILL BUDDY on April 26, 2011, 06:28:24 PMSo if he has an lt70 100.00 an hour is not bad.

He has an LT40 hydraulic.

Quote from: Magicman on April 26, 2011, 07:07:03 PMI'm trying to understand why you are in such a big hurry.

Im just ready to have these logs milled. I guess it doesnt need to be a hurry, but I just want to get the ball rolling soon, so I can work with these timbers. The decision doesnt have to be tonight though.

I'll ask the stationary mill folk what they charge if they hit hardware. Could be a big factor.

pnyberg

Dan,

I'm in CT, about 60 miles from you.  I'm full time portable with a WM LT40HD.  I charge $1/mile one way for travel, and $60/hr for labor.  I'm registered as a foreign LLC in MA (which you probably don't care about).  There's much more information about me and my business on my website (see below). 

My schedule is currently pretty open.  Contact me if you'd like to see if we can come to an agreement.

Best of luck either way...

--Peter
No longer milling

sjfarkas

here on the west coast I pay between $70-$80/hr, but have been quoted a$.35-$.40/bd ft.  I hope this helps.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

red oaks lumber

have the second mill do your sawing ,it sounds like a set price. far as wondering if your getting what you want out of the logs or on a cut list, you have to trust us (sawyers) we are professional at what we do.looking at your pictures of the logs they have been laying for awhile so your quality is deminishing spending less money on those logs looks the better way to go. just my opinion. ;)
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

metalspinner

QuoteI heard the previous owner of this land sometimes put nails in trees just so they would never be sawed.

What kind of an *^$%@&*(  does that?!? >:(  You would be well advised to invest in a metal detector.  If  you mentioned this to your sawyers, they may be inflating their price to accomodate the expected down time due to nail damage.  With the added machinery costs the $100 guy has, his price is coming more it line, IMHO.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

thecfarm

If he really did that,I hope he did not,worse comes to worse you would lose about 8-9 feet of every butt log. Would be better than hitting nails on every butt log. I doubt he carried a step ladder around to each tree, But who knows.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

danf26

Well, I'm not sure if the previous owner did that or not. The folks with the land next to our would know better than anyone. I'll see if I run into them today. I didnt mention this to either sawyer, as I never saw any nails myself, and only vaguely remember hearing this. I might be totally off.

Im leaning towards the stationary mill. I'll just make sure I have as accurate of a lumber list as I can get. I'll go double check all my logs this morning.

Thanks all

isawlogs

A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Magicman

Quote from: pnyberg on April 26, 2011, 08:08:58 PM
Dan,  I'm in CT, about 60 miles from you.   Contact me if you'd like to see if we can come to an agreement.  Peter

I agree with isawlogs.   :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

pa_of_6

danf26

I should get paid as a fortune teller...

In your last post asking for people's opinions as to whether the area was too small, I posted a reply that stated that you wouldn't be happy with the price that fellow gave you...

And I was right....this is too funny!

Now you have a new thread complaining about cost...I don't think you will ever be happy.

Buy some weiners and have a weinie roast with them logs....


SwampDonkey

They look like old logs with bark slipped off and stained sapwood and black ends. You going for the spalt look? Maybe the sawyer wants a slice of the gold inside. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

danf26

Quote from: pa_of_6 on April 27, 2011, 11:02:01 AMI should get paid as a fortune teller...

In your last post asking for people's opinions as to whether the area was too small, I posted a reply that stated that you wouldn't be happy with the price that fellow gave you...

A wiener roast sounds great. You misunderstand though pa_of_6, this fellow is not coming to my site and milling on my site as I was trying to figure out in my last post. His rate I'm 'complaining' about is what he charges for me to come to him. For me to haul him my logs and us mill at his site.

The above-mentioned sawyer is a great guy. I no longer am wondering if hes trying to rip me off, this is just his price.

I'm not trying to complain here, just figure some things out . . .

pa_of_6

Quote from: danf26 on April 27, 2011, 11:18:44 AM
Quote from: pa_of_6 on April 27, 2011, 11:02:01 AMI should get paid as a fortune teller...

In your last post asking for people's opinions as to whether the area was too small, I posted a reply that stated that you wouldn't be happy with the price that fellow gave you...

A wiener roast sounds great. You misunderstand though pa_of_6, this fellow is not coming to my site and milling on my site as I was trying to figure out in my last post. His rate I'm 'complaining' about is what he charges for me to come to him. For me to haul him my logs and us mill at his site.

The above-mentioned sawyer is a great guy. I no longer am wondering if hes trying to rip me off, this is just his price.

I'm not trying to complain here, just figure some things out . . .

wieners or sausage and whether you want marshmellows after!

I think that is all you have to figure out....JMO


Magicman

Quote from: pa_of_6 on April 27, 2011, 11:25:55 AM
wieners or sausage and whether you want marshmellows after!

I think that is all you have to figure out....JMO 

That was not nice.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

beenthere

Quote from: danf26 on April 27, 2011, 08:03:01 AM
........Im leaning towards the stationary mill. I'll just make sure I have as accurate of a lumber list as I can get. I'll go double check all my logs this morning.

Thanks all

It appears you have the cut list of materials expected marked on the ends of the logs. Is that what we are seeing in the pics?
Is that list to be followed by the sawyer and is expected to be cut from each log?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

LeeB

I suspect Dan came looking for help with a subject he knows little about. I'm pretty sure he didn't come looking for antagonism and ridicule. I for one, tend to agree with him on the feeling that $100/hr is high. I'm not there to see what the actual situation is, therefore cannot offer a truly informed opinion. I do think giving Peter a call would be a good idea if only to get info from another sawyer.  



















'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Tom

Danf26, Your cut list should be on paper and arranged such as the sawyer can understand what you want.  Using a cut list means that he will need the quantities and sizes/lengths arranged in a form that he can determine where he stands at any given moment in time.  (Make him a part of creating it)

Unless you have a tree that means a lot to you and you want to use it in a special place, don't try to read the logs for the sawyer.  Reading logs is a sawyer's job and there is more to it than fitting the sizes into the circumference of the little end.   Sawyers train themselves to read logs and to be turned into nothing more than a machine operator is almost a slap in the face.   

It's OK to mark a few and say I would like a 12"x12" x 20' if you think you can get it.  It was planted by my granddaddy and I want to use it in the living room.   But to mark you entire cut list on the ends of each log is telling him that you know more about sawing than he does. 

If it is important to you to know what is made from each log, by all means be there and discuss it with the sawyer.  You might change your mind in mid-stream.  A good custom sawyer won't mind as long as you don't slow him down too much.  Remember that he is trying to make a buck and has a head full of figures as he cuts each log.  He must keep in mind what he is cutting, where he is on each run, what he has done on the other side of the log, where his target is located, what he has removed and what he has left.  That is just the math and he is counting backwards and trying to remember all of that.  On top of that is the reading of the log.  There is the sweep, the knots, the holes and rot, the pith, checking (splits), grain, growth tension and forever having to refer to the cut list. Much of your list might come from the jacket wood on the outside of the log and there will, undoubtedly be lumber created that you never dreamed was in the log.  You should be prepared to pay him for those overages.  They are a sign of a good sawyer as much as just being able to produce what you think you want. 

Most folks find that they never have enough wood for a project anyway.  You might be glad that you don't box yourself in too tightly. :)

isawlogs

Quote from: pa_of_6 on April 27, 2011, 11:25:55 AM
wieners or sausage and whether you want marshmellows after!

I think that is all you have to figure out....JMO

Sir, if I had anything to do with it you would be sitting near a certain shed with those wieners.  >:(
It sure was not called for nor appreciated to have an honest question and good advise this thread it would of been better off with out your sorry imput.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Banjo picker

I have been keeping up with this post and the only thing I might add would be that  you may be getting charged extra for the 21 footers...and if you told the sawyer about the nails they might have jacked the price up for that as others have said....You should expect to pay a little more for the longer cuts....I can cut up to 24 foot and I had to pay for the prividlege up front when I ordered the mill....I hope you have a good experience with the cutting what ever you do....Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

customsawyer

I will have to through my hat into this ring.
My rates are pretty simple.
You bring the logs to me.    .25 cents per bf
I bring the mill to you.        .30 cents per bf
It don't matter to me, all I am looking for is enough extra to cover the expense of moving equipment. When I move the equipment I bring the mill, tractor and edger with all that equipment if all I made was a $100.00 per hour I would lose my shirt.
The point to this is that if the portable man is bringing all this extra equipment than he has to be able to offset those cost.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

sweetfarm

I think you are miss reading the post.  For that price he has take the logs to his yard and mill.  The extra equipment is in his own yard.
As for tree huggers putting nails in all the trees, well that's what I would tell people if I was a tree hugger and didn't want the trees cut!.

WH_Conley

I believe the extra equipment had it's own charge too. If I read right the $100.00 was just for a LT40HD and sawyer, no off bearer.
Bill

woodsteach

Have you guys priced a plumber lately???

If you charge XX/bd ft and are happy then great!

I charge $85/hour and both  my customers and I are happy judging by my repeat customers.

For instance:  Here is the cut-list I just milled up 1x7 1/4x12', 1 1/4x6 1/2x10',2 3/4x2 3/4x10', 1x12x16', 5x3 1/2x 16' etc.... white oak

Now where could the customer purchase such odd sizes?

During this order I've unloaded 3 "loads" of logs (time not charged), loaded and helped bind down the load (time not charged), spent at least 2 hrs on the phone at night helping this customer decide what to do (tnc)

Yes that is all part of the job but now my 85/hr breaks down to the 40/hr range. And I've still got a mill shed to clean up!

I love it when the customer stays and helps make decisions as to what to do with the problems that might arise but most of my customers leave it up to me.

Back to the plumber... got to go I've got a leaking pipe!

woods
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

windy hill farm

Hey Dan, have you thought about buying a small mill Lt10 for around $3000. Then  you would have the mill to use for future projects. I don't know if this was a one shot deal, but it sure would be nice to have the mill around for future use. Kevin
New Holland TN-60DA, Farmi Winch 501,Rhino 9.5ft 3pt backhoe,Sthil 440,361,270, 170 and O26 and several trailers.

paul case

Quote from: windy hill farm on April 28, 2011, 07:44:29 AM
Hey Dan, have you thought about buying a small mill Lt10 for around $3000. Then  you would have the mill to use for future projects. I don't know if this was a one shot deal, but it sure would be nice to have the mill around for future use. Kevin
this is what i did. well not an lt 10 but and ez boardwalk. i purchased my mill to cut out a house with. the framing lumber alone would have cost me as much as the mill. i cut out and built the house in about 4 months and i have been sawing for someone else or a market ever since. brand aside, if you are spending the money and want more bang for your buck, buy a mill. it is easy to learn if you have the time. i knew nothing about a bandmill when i bought mine and i have been milling for 2 1/2 years now and it has been a good part time or better income for me.
you could certianly saw them right along your road there and if you could saw 600 bdft per day according to your figures you would be done pretty quick. the extra costs wouldnt be too much. probably only 10 gallons of gas and 1 sharpening on 6 or 8 blades. this is a very viable option.

i wouldnt borrow money to do it but if its yours to spend it deserves some thought. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

danf26

Hey all,

Wow, lots of good ideas. Buying a mill isnt in my cards right now, unfortunately, but I think those of you who suggested that are on the right track. Maybe a few years down the road. With this project right now, I'm deciding to go with the fixed sawyer. He's charging 0.33/BF, and can haul the logs himself and haul back the finished lumber. I'll still be there while the milling is going on.

I dont know about the nails. I still havent been able to ask what they would charge if they hit one (this aint no bandsaw, I suspect it will be much more than $30).

I talked to the $100/hr guy yesterday and I dont feel like hes trying to rip me off, thats just his price. Some people may not have read the whole thread, and $100 an hour is for me to haul the logs to him. For his tractor and forwarder, thats another $150. The $100/hr is for him and one other man (news to me, I didnt know that before). A problem I feel with the per hour charge is if he is sawing so many BF an hour, his price might be comparable to other places. He just cant guarantee that, and then I could find myself feeling way overcharged.

Hes a good guy though, and he wants me to find the best deal I can, whether its with him or not.

Here's pictures of the pile from yesterday. Not the prettiest of piles, but *DanG Im proud:







danf26

All the trees are salvaged from a tornado that came thru in 2006. That oak sure hold up well. Not veneer and without its "defects", but surely a part of the (recent) story of this place.

york

Hey Dan,better talk to mill operator,about few logs may be "spiked"tree huggers never use box nails -could cost more money,than the spiked log,itself is worth...good luck
Bert
Albert

Magicman

The spiked tree story sound like the watermelon story.  The farmer  posted a sign that said "One Watermelon has been Poisoned".  The next day he saw where someone had One Two.  Now who is eating watermelons  ???

No doubt he may have put the story out, but it would be very doubtful that he actually spiked a tree.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

vfauto

The definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over and expect a different result!

spencerhenry

i mill sometimes for high end jobs in Aspen, where everything is expensive. the drive to the job is 50 miles one way. i have charged as high as $125/hr plus a helper, but including blades. i had to start telling them that i had a 6 hour minimum at that location. i made a lot of money on that job, but did all the work they said would take me 6 months, in just over 1 month. i have an lt40 super and was milling up to 35 foot timbers out of logs taken out of a log house. i ocassionally hit a nail, or bolt or something, but that was my helpers fault that was his primary job to denail the logs. the last job i did for the same people on a guest house was at the same location, i charged $85 plus blades and helper. i dont think it was enough, but in this market i wanted to make sure they were happy.
my woodmizer is an lt40 super, and if milling 2x or thicker with good logs and an offbearer i think 400 bf an hour would not be hard at all. if he is including blades in that it could get ugly for him in a hurry. back in your neck of the woods that might be really high, but here it is a fair price if including blades and he is coming to you.
if his mill is NOT a super with some horsepower and setworks then i would say it is too high a price for here and way to high for there. the setworks really improves consistency and greatly improves production when cutting 1x or 2x.


Jim_Rogers

I'm on the eastern side of MA and I get paid by the bdft of lumber produced. The only time I charge by the hour is when I'm re-sawing something else other than logs, like salvage timbers.

Sawing by the hour, in my opinion, isn't the best for either the sawyer or the customer. It isn't best for the sawyer, as the customer can stand there and say "hurry up"......I don't want to hear that at all. It isn't best for the customer as the sawyer has to "hurry up" and that can lead to mistakes and bad cuts. And if the sawyer saws slow he feels like he isn't getting his monies worth.

Sawing by the bdft is better as the sawyer can take his time to try and fill the "stock list" prepared by the customer. It doesn't matter to me if I make 6 cuts to get a board/plank or timber or 16 cuts, it's all bdft.
Sawing a mixed list, meaning boards, planks, and timbers, means different handling. Boards and planks can be carried off the mill by hand. But getting timbers off the mill usually means you have to use a fork lift for something to move them out of the way. If I was sawing by the hour then that time would be standard time, not an extra fee added.

Sawing dirty "skidded out" logs takes longer as you have to either clean the logs or if you have a de-barker on your mill, run it on every outside cut.

Years ago, there was a stationary circular sawmill near me; that I used to sell logs to when I was hauling logs with my log truck. They charged $2.50 a tooth, and $9 per shank for metal damage to their blades.
You should check with them as to what they will charge back to you if they hit any "foreign objects". If they don't have a de-barker then they may charge you for "dirty" logs. I would imagine that they do have a de-barker on their rig.

If someone brings there logs to me to be milled here in my yard, I don't usually charge them for unloading their truck or trailer. Unless it is a salvage timber job and then everything is by the hour.
I don't charge them for re-load finished lumber onto their truck or trailer, either.

I do charge for extra long lengths over 16' as I have to pay for my bed extension.
And I do charge for damaged blades.

I also offer a "scanning service" to scan each log for nails. That is by the hour, but no minimum. What I do is start a stop watch and scan and then stop the watch. Whatever time adds up at the end of the job is the "scanning fee". I get $75 per hour for that, and that includes pulling nails found or hit.

A while ago, I used to get $60 per hour for sawing, by the hour. But I did go up to $75 when the price of gas started going up. I may go up again.

Good luck with your milling of your logs. I hope all goes well for you.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Magicman

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on April 30, 2011, 08:04:48 AM
I also offer a "scanning service" to scan each log for nails. That is by the hour, but no minimum. What I do is start a stop watch and scan and then stop the watch. Whatever time adds up at the end of the job is the "scanning fee". I get $75 per hour for that, and that includes pulling nails found or hit.  Jim Rogers 

???  Then I would assume that after paying a scanning fee, the customer has no responsibility for nails, etc.  By charging to find and remove them, you have shifted that responsibility to yourself.   ???
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

isawlogs


I have a metal detector here that they can use , but if they ' forget ' any nails or shrapnal inside a log they are still responsable for the blade.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

spencerhenry

hourly only. i often get asked to resaw a timber, and end up with a 12x12. the timber i start with may be 14x14, but has an inch of twist, and an inch of bow. i cant get what he wants out of the timber, no way no how. people continually want me to get more out of a log or timber than is possible. when i hit a nail, i charge for the blade, and being hourly i dont lose money (time) to change it out. it is in the customers best interest to denail the wood before it gets to me. i charge $20 per blade, which is *DanG near what  a NEW blade costs. i used to charge $15 figuring that i was going to send it off to get sharpened and that only cost about $7. what i found was that some times the metal that i hit ruined the blade, or after the nail the blade got too hot and was now no good. i got some blades back that were sharp, but wouldnt cut for beans. a mill owner has to figure in for all the time behind the scenes, oil changes, parts, keeping the mill adjusted, disposing of slabs, disposing of sawdust, etc... it all adds up and i have found that maintaining the mill and keeping up with waste takes a fair amount of time. then there is the ownership tax, and license plates. the total registration on just my edger is about $150 per year. for each customer that i actually cut for, i have probably 2 or 3 phone calls, maybe an email or 2, some want to come see my operation first, all said i probably have an hour or two into the job before the customer even shows up. then when they show up, their trailer cant be loaded with forks because it has side rails or fenders, then i end up giving them enough stickers to get the load high enough off the deck to load with forks. now i have to make more stickers.
if the guy quoted a price and you dont like it, find someone else.

Magicman

Quote from: isawlogs on April 30, 2011, 09:19:10 AMI have a metal detector here that they can use , but if they ' forget ' any nails or shrapnal inside a log they are still responsable for the blade.

I operate the same way.  It's their nails and their responsibility.   I went up from $20 to $25 this year to cover my time changing the blade.

Actually, I hit very few nails per year, and it's mostly in ERC. 



Even the best detectors won't find rocks.  This one was in a crotch.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Banjo picker

Magicman if they would invent one that would find rocks...I wouldn't get to mill very much..as I would be out looking for arrowheads  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Magicman

I guess that it would also need a "picture taker" hooked to it so you could see the shape.  ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: Magicman on April 30, 2011, 09:09:56 AM
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on April 30, 2011, 08:04:48 AM
I also offer a "scanning service" to scan each log for nails. That is by the hour, but no minimum. What I do is start a stop watch and scan and then stop the watch. Whatever time adds up at the end of the job is the "scanning fee". I get $75 per hour for that, and that includes pulling nails found or hit.  Jim Rogers 

???  Then I would assume that after paying a scanning fee, the customer has no responsibility for nails, etc.  By charging to find and remove them, you have shifted that responsibility to yourself.   ???

No, they still have to pay if I hit an interior nail. But this usually is ok with the customer.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Magicman

The main thing is that all is understood between the sawyer and customer before sawing begins.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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