Cordless B-20

redbeard · April 26, 2011, 02:46:35 AM

With the expertise of Steve Geschwend and his automation skills that he has done on his Brand X swing mill, He helped me remove the cord reel completely and replace with remote control, a simple design using a wireless sensor wired to original switch in a new weather proof box, and reciever in a weatherproof box on the saw head. Wa-Laa! my B-20 is cordless! Hopefully he will pipe in for the technical questions alls i know is it works great and i can return the saw head as fast as i want and the setworks works great. Thanks Steve good job.

Chuck White · April 26, 2011, 05:27:34 AM

Good to hear your project went well!

Kudo's to Steve!

Happy Birthday Redbeard!

ladylake · April 26, 2011, 07:51:45 AM

Good job RB, looks like a nice neat installiation and the best part is the setworks always work. Do you run a spring centered toggle or one that will stay in the up, down position? I rigged mine up with both and use the 3 postion one the most and the sping centered one for bumping it up or down a fraction. Next move would be a wireless remote throttle. Steve

Magicman · April 26, 2011, 08:33:59 AM

And you got a Birthday present in the deal. Happy 52nd.

thecfarm · April 26, 2011, 08:53:29 AM

Now that's a birthday present. Happy Birthday redbeard.

sgschwend · April 26, 2011, 10:58:21 AM

It was a nice project. Went quick with the two of us on it. By the time Jeff had the two boxes mounted I had the wiring finished.

The new hardware becomes inserted by cutting the cord reel wires at both ends and hooking the transmitter at the operator station and the receiver on the sawhead. Only a 12V power wire was needed to be added.

LL, we continued the use of the factory momentary switch.

A second transmitter was setup so Jeff could run the setworks from other locations around the mill too.

flip · April 26, 2011, 01:26:14 PM

Can you guys give me some info on this? This is exactly what I am wanting to do with my B20. Materials list??
TIA

bodagocreek2 · April 26, 2011, 06:47:41 PM

I'm with flip. I would also appreciate some info on that setup or where I could find out about it. Thanks

pineywoods · April 26, 2011, 08:02:34 PM

I hope you considered the possibility of outside interference affecting the wireless link. I didn't when I put wireless remote control on my wm lt40. Got knocked on my kiester by a runaway saw head. It now has some safety interlocks now.

dmartin · April 26, 2011, 08:07:09 PM

I too would like some more info on the modifacation that you made.
It looks like you guys have done a great job and I'm sure you will happy with the more reliable mill.
Also do you happen to have access to a wiring diagram of the mill, I have a 2001 model and would like to get a wiring diagram if possible.

sgschwend · April 26, 2011, 09:46:02 PM

You are certainly welcome to try this change. I have been using these parts for over a year, the supplier tells me this is one of there high runners. Here is a link to there web page:

http://www.electronickits.com/remote_control/rf4.htm

The board has a digital code to keep any other RF signals from making a false command.

I order an extra transmitter that can be used as a backup or when you are walking around the mill.

The remainder of the parts I purchased from my local box store in the electrical section, waterproof box and a feed-through, the smaller box is a duplex (non waterproof).

NOTES:
1) Some soldering is necessary in order to connect the B20's factory supplied switch. The future plan is to provide a 12VDC connection for the transmitter, there are several easy ways to do this 1) battery packs, small charger, or a cable from the mills battery.

2) There is a short delay from the time the switch is released and the relay switch opens.

3) I will try and come up with the wiring diagram.

Also the schematic for these mills is inside the factory cabinet.

bodagocreek2 · April 27, 2011, 06:31:36 AM

Thank you Steve for the info. I will be checking into this mod soon. Nic.

flip · April 27, 2011, 08:45:35 AM

Thank you very much! Ordered the kit this AM, how did you wire the remote?

dmartin · April 27, 2011, 08:55:36 AM

Thanks for the information, I'll look the cover for the schematic.

pineywoods · April 27, 2011, 02:02:44 PM

This is the same place where I purchased the remote control system for my woodmizer. Good folks. I bought the 12 channel infrared version, only used 7 channels.

sgschwend · April 27, 2011, 04:03:00 PM

Here are the pictures of the back of the transmitter where you will need to solder the three wires from the control station switch. There are multiple choices that you can make, you only need to make one connection. The choices are marked with a black dot.

If you want to add auxiliary 12VDC the lower connections there are marked. I think I soldered to the battery brackets, the time I did it.

I also use the soldering iron to heat up the bottom of the plastic holder (both sides) so that the wire can exit there.

redbeard · May 01, 2011, 03:12:15 PM

I have really put it to the test this last week mostly sawing in the evenings and all day yesterday, Happy to report it has really worked out great!

Magicman · May 01, 2011, 03:22:36 PM

When good friends and a good idea come together, good things happen.

Congratulations !!!

flip · May 02, 2011, 07:11:14 AM

Any hicups in the setworks? I have pretty much abandonded using mine because of the inconsistency. Thought we had it fixed by adding another slip ring in the reel but it started messing up again after about 6 hours of sawing. Can't wait to get this installed.

bodagocreek2 · May 02, 2011, 12:55:04 PM

Redbeard - on the last picture of your original post, there is a yellow beacket. Looks like it could be for a auto type blade guide. Any info? thanks Nic

sgschwend · May 02, 2011, 10:09:01 PM

There is one effect when manually setting. The remote switch has a minimum width which equates to a minimum manual setworks move of 1/4 to 3/8".

Presently I believe Jeff is using the setworks to set any exact setwork values. I am looking into other options.

Jeff tells me that he has made a big increase in his throughput because after the cut he can just hit the up switch and returns the sawhead using maximum reverse feed. I have watch it run and it really can fly back fast! The next computer controlled setwork value is achieved by a single down switch.

Steve

ladylake · May 03, 2011, 06:27:50 AM

I've always returned mine full speed with a cord reel, maybe needed to tighten up the spring a round or 2. I run my hyd engine around half throttle though, everything is plenty fast then , maybe at full throttle the reel might not keep up. Steve

flip · May 03, 2011, 08:29:37 AM

Quote from: sgschwend on May 02, 2011, 10:09:01 PM
There is one effect when manually setting. The remote switch has a minimum width which equates to a minimum manual setworks move of 1/4 to 3/8".

Presently I believe Jeff is using the setworks to set any exact setwork values. I am looking into other options.

Jeff tells me that he has made a big increase in his throughput because after the cut he can just hit the up switch and returns the sawhead using maximum reverse feed. I have watch it run and it really can fly back fast! The next computer controlled setwork value is achieved by a single down switch.

Steve

When it is (was) working right I could set it for 1 1/8" 4/4, make my cut, bump it up a 1/4", bring the carriage back at full speed and then hold the down switch until the SW stopped it at the next cut. When it is not working, when I bring the head back and hold the down switch it does not stop or stops waaaay past where the next cut shold have been. All of my issues have come down to the cord reel and/or resistance issues with the slip rings. I am all for getting rid of that stoopid cord reel.

redbeard · May 04, 2011, 02:25:42 PM

Quote from: bodagocreek2 on May 02, 2011, 12:55:04 PM
Redbeard - on the last picture of your original post, there is a yellow beacket. Looks like it could be for a auto type blade guide. Any info? thanks Nic

I believe you are inquiring about the de-barker its the yellow aparatus shown in pic. It has a half moon gaurd around blade. and a bar in front of blade that keeps de-barker blade from digging in. Also i would like to say when i raise the head and return the head i go faster than i have been used to but not full speed. I don't want my off bearer getting nervous there hard to find. I have learned to set one of my setworks settings for 1/8 so i can get accurate control of the delay that the remote has, I think a manual switch on the saw head will be a faster way of doing it, that is mostly used when edging or making beams and such.

sgschwend · May 06, 2011, 12:40:20 AM

We are going to add a setwork control switch on the sawhead.

Jeff sees this as a nice addition to the mill. From what I understand he has had times that he uses a tape measure to a location on the mill's frame and it would be very handy to have a control switch near by.

Certainly the extra RF transmitter would do the same thing; it becomes a case of personal preference and this is an easy addition (and will work harmoniously with the RF remote switching).

flip · May 06, 2011, 08:04:45 AM

Quote from: sgschwend on May 06, 2011, 12:40:20 AM
We are going to add a setwork control switch on the sawhead.

Jeff sees this as a nice addition to the mill. From what I understand he has had times that he uses a tape measure to a location on the mill's frame and it would be very handy to have a control switch near by.

Certainly the extra RF transmitter would do the same thing; it becomes a case of personal preference and this is an easy addition (and will work harmoniously with the RF remote switching).

Do tell.

So by making it wireless to move the head up and down, it will bypass the down stop when the setworks are on?

sgschwend · May 06, 2011, 10:18:20 AM

Nothing is bypassed. The relays connect to the same place as the switch was. So the limit switches and computer setworks are still in the circuit and work perfectly.

My understanding is that the computer keeps track of the sawhead position and by program stops the setworks at the correct spot, or if a limit is reached the sawhead will be stopped.

Only in manual adjustment mode there is an overshoot. When I have a moment I will look at the board design to see what can be done there. I believe you would find this when cutting a beam using manual settings. I don't know about the TK program modes, if there was one that works from the table top that should be all that is necessary. I get the impression Jeff uses a step program that references the top of the first cut.

flip · May 06, 2011, 12:25:56 PM

We have been using some 1/16" thick aluminum story sticks that have marks on them for various cuts. Very accurate but you have to have the carriage almost all the way back to "split" the cut line. The way it is sounding, with the remote set up, there is no bumping the head up or down to achieve minute corrections (1/16" or less).

sgschwend · May 06, 2011, 06:27:00 PM

Not sure what the true minimum bump on the B20 is. I am sure it is not zero, would be fun to know. There is a lot going on that needs to be controlled, such as: stopping a gear reduction motor, controlling worm gear nut backlash and the drive chain slack. In my opinion there is a lot of parts moving which makes this a challenging design. Sounds like your story stick measure to the saw which would help eliminate those errors. Did I get that right?

My guess is the setworks lowering speed was selected to make things as accurate as practical (but I don't really know this stuff, so take this with a grain of salt). I did not see any active error correction for these parts, which I think other brand mills have.

The manual switch that we are going to add will work as well as the one the factory puts at the control station. I think the second switch is somewhat redundant, but it is a simple quick fix and it still eliminates the cord real. Sometimes redundancy is a good thing.

Lastly, Jeff showed me where he replaced the factory connectors in the control box with wire nuts to fix the intermittent computer setworks operations. Maybe you could try that fix too.

flip · May 07, 2011, 07:45:41 AM

Quote from: sgschwend on May 06, 2011, 06:27:00 PM
Not sure what the true minimum bump on the B20 is. I am sure it is not zero, would be fun to know. There is a lot going on that needs to be controlled, such as: stopping a gear reduction motor, controlling worm gear nut backlash and the drive chain slack. In my opinion there is a lot of parts moving which makes this a challenging design. Sounds like your story stick measure to the saw which would help eliminate those errors. Did I get that right?

My guess is the setworks lowering speed was selected to make things as accurate as practical (but I don't really know this stuff, so take this with a grain of salt). I did not see any active error correction for these parts, which I think other brand mills have.

The manual switch that we are going to add will work as well as the one the factory puts at the control station. I think the second switch is somewhat redundant, but it is a simple quick fix and it still eliminates the cord real. Sometimes redundancy is a good thing.

Lastly, Jeff showed me where he replaced the factory connectors in the control box with wire nuts to fix the intermittent computer setworks operations. Maybe you could try that fix too.

In my quest to fix this thing several year ago we went through 4-5 cord reels, new relay box, new wiring everything. So I take it back to TK to see if they could make it work as designed and wouldn't you know the stupid thing worked every time :

. When I do the remote, I am rewiring everything again just to make sure I didn't miss anything. I crimp and solder all of my connectors so I'm sure I've got good connections form point to point. May be a month before I can get to this, got to go to school in a week 8)

sgschwend · May 07, 2011, 10:30:40 AM

I notice Jeff has a box of used cord reels too.

I will pm you if there is any news.

redbeard · May 26, 2011, 12:19:48 AM

The remote set-up is working extremely well, especially adding a manual switch right next to de-barker switch. I can dial in any incriment i want now and the set-works is right on the money. I was wrong on the return speed it is just one speed i just never knew that cause the cord reel could never keep up with the head return. I have gotten real use to coming back fast and lowering it to next cut. So my BF production is up. In a 3-4 hr time frame i have been use to doing 1/2 of what i did on Saturday i was amazed how fast this mill can cut. So if your cord reel can keep up with full speed head return then this modification dosen,t really change much. I give two thumbs up on this remote replacement kit.

bodagocreek2 · July 04, 2011, 04:55:40 PM

Redbeard - would like to thank you and Sqschwend for the information on the wireless setup. Installed it about 2 weeks ago and it works great. Now, maybe we can get some onfo on a remote throttle for the B20. Thanks again. Nic

sgschwend · July 04, 2011, 07:43:13 PM

I ordered a factory solenoid for my Kohler engine. It give two speed settings. It is OK. I did not like the way they wanted me to install it, so I modified the new brackets so that I could keep my manual choke.

The two speed works fine as long as you are under heavy load, which would only occur if you stalled/stopped the saw in the log.

I hooked up my lube to the same control circuit so it cycles with the engine. I like that method, because I can set the lube flow on high, but it would be off when not in a cut with the engine idled down.