Need To Start A New Thread

[Fla._Deadheader]

  There was the starting of some very important info on a recent thread, that kind of got off topic of the original thread. ( What else is new)  :D :D

CKTate and Woodhaven and "D" Frederick and AD Fields were touching on welding on a shaft and the topic drifted to "Hardening and Tempering".

  Don'T know about Y'all, but, that has always fascinated me and I have several books, but, I Don'T learn well from books. :
  It would be VERY interesting to me, and maybe others, if these guys or anyone else, would put some input to this subject.

  I know just enough to get by, but, would appreciate some knowledge, back yard learnin, or Scientific, College learnin, to help me understand the basic principles. The "Shaft Welding" post shows that some of us need some better insight, if we are to continue building machinery that could get someone hurt, from lack of knowledge.

  How bout it, guys??? ??? ;)

[etat]

 As said on the other thread, you weld around a shaft like that, or even like a lot of welding shops will do it, and failure is a option.  There are ways to reduce this option.  A shaft, whether cold rolled steel, or 4140 hard steel, when you weld around it with concentrated heat will change the structure of the metal, making it brittle.  That's why most welds of this type are doomed to failure.  The difference is concentrated in one small area, and in this case the area that will absorb the most stress.   There are ways to reduce this concentration.  The first thing, is figuring out how to hold everything together perfectly square, not a small task, as you know.  Now, in the case of a shaft preheat the metal.  hot.  This will help spread out the heat when welding and save damage to the metal itself.  Don't just start on one side welding around, or it will warp and pull, just as some lumber will if you don't stack it properly and weight it down.  Tack it in place, check for square make sure the tacks are free of slag and air bubbles, and continue to join the welds in short beads, alternating from side to side.  Once welded, reheat the whole shaft and allow to cool slowly, preferably by packing in something that will hold heat.  This will anneal the shaft if properly done, back to, or close to, it's original strength.  Another way, is to take your time, and allow each opposing weld to cool down as you go.  This way won't be as strong as preheating and annealing, but will do for most purposes.

[Fla._Deadheader]

CK   Ya put too much in this one post   :D :D
  Where I am headed with this thread, is, getting book learning AND field learning, mixed together, to get some REAL good info.
  My experience is starting with a Forney Buzz-box, and welding Galvanized steel, first thing. Got pretty sick, real quick.

  Did exactly like you, play and pay attention. Finally got a GOOD welder to show me some tips.
  Moved to a farm and had to learn real quick. Had a neighbor that was a Certified Oil Pipeline Offshore Welder. He taught me some tricks and WHY you do things a certain way.

  I taught my son, and he has figured out some things besides. Why you Don'T do some things, is more important to me.

  You touched on the shaft welding and it being porous and filled with Carbon, and the weld is no good. THAT is what I picked up on the wheel hub weld on T's mill. I was thinking about how to approach him about it, and "D" and AD took the lead. That weld had me scared to death. T took the info in stride and I hope he gets some good info out of this thread, along with the rest of us.

  When I decide to build something, I usually ask the guys at the Steel Co. what they suggest. That is NOT always a good idea !!! For instance, I used a piece of cold-rolled 1" round, to make the clamp assembly for our mill. It reinforces the hydraulic cylinder. Well. it's bent and goes up and down slowly. I went to the Steel Co. and got Stainless plate and Aluminum plate and asked about a "harder" 1" round.  Well, we got hot-rolled-, cold-rolled, stress, and can't remember the other. It is so hard, if you bend it too far, it shatters. OK, what's the best for my application? Guy says, whatever you want  : : >:(  I bought a piece of "stress"? and probably will upgrade the clamp to 1½" the next time we get it to the shop.

  Need to keep these posts relatively short, so the info sinks in.  OK guys, jump in here with some technical stuff, and splain it so's we can understand it.  ;D ;D

[etat]

S-o-r-r-y  ;D ;D ;D  PS milk will help counteract the sickness associated with galvanized fumes!  A fan blowing them fumes away from you is better. Better yet, grind off the galvanize before welding, or remove with muratic acid.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Yeah, sure, Where were ya in 1971??? ??? :D :D :D :D :D :D

[etat]

 :D :D :D :D :D

[D._Frederick]

First I will say  that I am not a certified welder, but with a lot of years behind me I know what will work and what will cause problems. Sktate did not hit on the correct welding rods or wire. I am close enough to  welding supply places that have staff that are knowledgeable enough if I tell them what type of iron/steel that I want to weld that they will give me the correct rods. If you are using used metal, take a grinder and grind on it and note what the sparks look like. The welding supplies have pictures showning the different sparks patterns indicating type of steel. Buying steel is another whole field, a good steel outlet will have engineering spec's , some of them will have people that can steer you in the right direction.

The biggest problem most do-it -your-self welders will have is with warp (like with welding track together). If you go to a shop/factory that are building something that must be straight, you will see that they have fixtures to hold the pieces during welding to prevent warp.They also use a welding sequences, not just random welding.

If you have been reading my posting, when some one asks about building something, I am mostly negative because 80% of the people don't have the skill level.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Thanks "D". Presenting your input is what this forum is about. Being negative is fine, as long as you point out what the problems you see will end up doing to the project.
  One thing I TRY to remember, is, how did I get started and the fact that I knew nothing, in the beginning. That is why I am asking for anyone's input here. ;)

  One other thing, the way that businesses are bought and sold today, you can't always depend on the owner OR the sales people to KNOW what they are talking about. A LOT of places don't even know what they have to sell :

[jeepman]

What are you looking for insight into, tempering or welding of shafts? I am a certified welder and weld shafts often, I may help with that. My tempering and hardening skills are hit and miss at best. I can't help as much as I can confuse on that subject.

[D._Frederick]

Jeepman,

Please go through the steps that would produce a weld that would be reliable on the hub shown, Note the steps need, maybe somebody else can fill the holes on heat treating/tempering. Your help will give insight on the skill needed so people will not "get in over there head" and weld something together that will come apart with bad results.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Hi Jeepman, What "D" just posted is kinda what I am looking for.

  As I wrote earlier, when we design something, I try to figure what will happen if I do something a certain way. I think, knowing what WILL get someone in trouble, is more important than, let's build it and see what happens.

  I hope the guys using tires and wheels building a mill, are aware of how much energy is unleashed, if the weld or shaft or bearings let go.

   What heat does to steel, as in, crystalizing or warping or whatever, might be good info. Heat treating would be good. I know that is a field of it's own, but, as CK posted, "I have done it this way and it worked pretty well", to me is pretty good info. Stuff like that.

  If the info gets really good, it could be condensed and put in the knowledge base on the forum, for anyone to use as a reference.

  Glad you decided to jump in here. ;D ;D

[etat]

I'll be the first to admit that there may be better ways.  I too would like to hear them.  I disagree with the spark testing to determine steel type.  Much better to know what you have to begin with.  While it is true that a very experienced person can tell from the spark, even down to the exact type of steel, there are a lot of variables to look for, and this test can very well be misleading to the novice, and as I understand it confusing even to some experts. Too many types of alloys out there now. I wouldn't dare attempt it myself and then say absolutely what type steel I thought the results were.   I stand by what I say on the preheating and annealing on shafts until I absolutely know that there is a better way.  There may be better rods for the purpose, this is what I have had the best luck with, and havn't had anything to fail in quite a while. I do pay an extreme amount of attention to detail.  It is my opinion that folks are going to continue to build things.  Many will try reguardless of what is said.  As Fla. said, maybe more information will help at least a few from making mistakes. As for tempering and hardening cold rolled steel, it ain't going to happen.  No matter what method you use.There are  two ways to relieve stress in it.  One is peening it when hot, the other is annealing. Or taking your time, not getting it too hot, and not allowing too much stress to build up in the first place. If there were a occasion that you needed a hard surface on it, you would need to do it with a hard surfacing rod, and machine it back down.  But that will not harden the whole thing.  Sorry Fla. If I'm out of line. If yall think I am let me know and I'll delete this post. ;D  Just tryin to help.

[Duane_Moore]

 8) Dumb farm answer, wipe the galvanized with vinegar first? can weld, paint or what ever,  Duh, Duane.  also when cutting stainless steel use onion as a lube on the saw blade, well what ya want,  me from wyoming,  Duh ;D ;D

[ADfields]

Spark test will tell you the carbon in steel if you know what to look for and MUST be done on a grinding "stone" not a carbon wheel.

Heat treating is more involved then this forum has room for! :P :P :P

When talking steels the faster you cool them the harder they get.   What cktate laid out as "tempering" is in fact called "annealing" not tempering.   When you temper steel you heat it red and cool it as fast as you can, this step is called harding.   Next step is to apply heat and remove some of the hardens and this step is the tempering.   There are endless ways to temper but the best way for a guy at home is to draw colors in the steel.   This is done by polishing the hardened steel to bright shinny steel so you will be able to see the colors as you draw them.   Next apply heat to the thickest part and watch the colors run, first is a straw then purples then blues.   The darker the color the softer the steel and when you have the pattern you want and quench it in cool clean oil to have a "tempered" steel.  

To me the right way to weld a shaft like the one we are talking of (with a compound load on it) is on the very end only, or like I stated don't go all the way around and give a crack a line to fallow around.   To repair a broken shaft I Lean to a TIG welder and someone who knows how to use it. ;)

Took me years of blacksmithing to find out what little I do know about this stuff. :   It gets very complex very fast but one of the best rules to remember is never give a crack a solid line to fallow all the way around or across a part or it will.  

I am always happy to help, it's the only reason I even post hear in fact!   I know I come off like a know it all sometimes and I'm sorry for that :'(  But I cant see someone headed down the road to the washed out bridge I just came from and not speak up. :-/   Thanks for putting up with me! ;)
Andy

[Bigdogpc]

First off, I ain't no welder.  CK is correct about working with unknown steel, steel is developed with specific properties for very specific applications.  Using found, unknown steels is the cheapest way to go but the risks are high.

"Tool steels must posses certain properties to a higher than ordinary degree, in order to make them adaptable for uses which require the ability of sustaining heavy loads and performing dependably even under adverse conditions."Machinery's Handbook"

The presence of carbon, usually in excess of .60% for non-alloyed types is essential for assuring the hardenability of steels to the levels needed for tools...hence the belief that high carbon knife blades are better

Tool steels may not be the best option for a given project, it really depends on the project.  O1 drill rod is readily available but not cheap.  The "O" designates it as oil hardening and is classed a cold work tool steel.  This is also available as an "A" designation which is air hardening.

Properties and applications:

AISI O1:A low alloy tool steel which is hardened in oil and exhibits only a low tendency to shrinking or warping.  It is used for cutting tools, the operation of which does not generate high heat, such as taps and threading dies, reamers, broaches and for press tools like blanking, trimming, and forming dies.

AISI O2: Manganese is the dominant alloy element in this type of oil hardening tool steel which has good non-deforming properties, can be machined easily and performs satisfactory in low volumn production.  Low hardening temperatures results in good safety in hardening, both with regard to stability and freedom from cracking.

STANDARD STEELS:

A numerical index for steel is used for SAE steel specifications.  The first figure indicates the class to which the steel belongs.  A "1---" indicates a carbon steel; A "2---" indicates a nickel steel, etc.  In the case of alloys, the second figure generally indicates the approximate percentage of the predominant alloying element.  Usually the last two or three figures indicate the average carbon content in "points" or hundredths of 1%.  Thus "2340" indicates a nickel steel of approximately 3% nickel and .40% carbon.

HARDENING TEMPERATURES FOR CARBON TOOL STEELS:

The best hardening temperatures for any given tool steel is dependent upon the type of tool and the intended class of service.  Whenever possible the specific recommendations of the tool steel manufacturer should be followed.  General recommendations for hardening temperatures of carbon tool steels based on carbon content are as follows:

.65-.80% carbon = 1450-1550 degrees F
.80-.95% carbon = 1410-1460 degrees F
.95-1.10% carbon = 1390-1430 degrees F
1.10% and over = 1380-1420 degrees F

Temperatures as indicated by color for plain carbon steel:

very pale yellow =430 degrees F
light yellow =440 degrees F
pale straw yellow = 450 degrees F
straw yellow = 460 degrees F
deep straw yellow = 470 degrees F
dark yellow = 480 degrees F
yellow-brown = 490 degrees F
brown-yellow = 500 degrees F
spotted red-brown = 510 degrees F
brown-purple = 520 degrees F
light purple = 530 degrees F
full purple = 540 degrees F
dark purple = 550 degrees F
full blue = 560 degrees F
dark blue = 570 degrees F
light blue = 640 degrees F

The above information is from the Machinery's Handbook, 20th edition.  It offers a wealth of information pertaining to tools, steels, charts, math, etc suitable for a machine shop.  They can be found (older versions) fairly reasonable and are very handy to have around.

I hope this will be of some use to ya'll

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Ahhhhhhhh, NOW we're gettin somewhere.  Don'T know why someone would think they are not knowledgable or hoggin the forum???  AD, if anybody thinks you talk too much, they will let ya know ;D

  A lot of stuff I do, is done without much thought, because I have done certain things so many times, it's habit, or, because I KNOW it will work. I think Y'all are doing the same. That's why I asked for the input in this thread.
  
  
  The tech info from Bigdog is great. I have so many books, that, by the time I find the right book, I forgot what I was tryin to build :

  When I was taught by the Certified Welder, he said to do the basic welding with a 6013 rod. That is mild steel and will get good penetration. THEN, if ya need strength, large bead in a gusset or a high stress area, weld over the first bead with the low Hydrogen 7018. That is high Tensile strength rod. I try to do this whenever possible and never had a failure.

  When I would clean up new ground, in Arkansas, I would follow up with a bottom plow. Points would last about 2 hours, because of the hard ground. I started experimenting with Truck leaf-springs, and would weld them on as points, right over the old ones. Once I figgered the correct angle of attack, them suckers would last 2 days : ;D ;D   Tried hard surface, but, not much luck.

  The Mig wire-feed is another whole dimension. We use that on 1/8th thickness or less. Can't get the deep penetration, so we may tack the project and then use the motor-genset welder and use the sticks. Get near 200 amps with that.

   Don't quite agree with Vinegar on Galv. and then weld. The Galv. is mostly Zinc and is usually a thick coat. Vinegar will CLEAN it, and take the oil off of new galv. so paint will stick. Best thing on Galv. is grind or use something else.

[etat]

I'm a thinking that if you need to build up a weld it will be stronger if you do it in steps rather than all at one time.  (A thinner bead around the middle, clean the slag and grind the edges, and follow with another bead on each side to build up will be stronger?.  I'm a thinking?  .............Machinerys handbook definition of Annealing:  A process involving heating and cooling applied usually to induce softening.  The term is also used to cover treatments intended to remove stress:  Alter mechanical of physical properties:  Produce a definite micro structure;  Remove gasses. Certain specific heat treatments of iron-based alloys covered by the term annealing or black annealing, blue annealing, box annealing, bright annealing, full annealing, graphitizing, malleablizing, process annealing:      And then it gets more, and more, and more, and more, complicated.  My machinery's handbook edition is 1946, and is One thousand nine hundred and eleven pages.  It is 13th edition.  Under heat treatment of steel............, annealing, annealing hide'speed steel, annealing temperatures, baths for heating, baths for quenching, baths for tempering, carburizing, carburizing steel, carburizing temperatures, cast hardening, cast hardening liquid and gas, cast hardening steels, cleaning work after cast hardening, heat treatment of steel colors for tempering, cyanide hardening, decalescence. Definations, drills, drop-forging dies, flame hardening, furnaces, furnaces for high-speed steel, harding ability test, Jominy, harding temperature, hardness at different drawing temperatures, heat treatmenst for S.A.E. steels, high speed steel, induction hardening, interrupted quenching, lead bath temperatures, nitriding, nitriding high-speed steel, non-ferrous metals, normalizing, normalizing temperatures, oil-hardening steels, pack-hardening, precipitation hardening, punches and dies, quenching, recalescence. salt baths, scale formations, solution method, spaheroidizing, strength and hardness data, sub-zero treatments, tanks for quenching baths, tempering, tempering in lead baths, tempering in oil baths, tempering in salt baths, tempering in sand, temperatures in water quenching.    Now I know, none of this helps at all, but it wll let you know the complications involved if you want to get into exact details.  Guess I'm saying to try to keep it simple, and deal with what most folks will be using.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Now I know, none of this helps at all, but it wll let you know the complications involved if you want to get into exact details.  Guess I'm saying to try to keep it simple, and deal with what most folks will be using.

  Exactly what I been tryin to get across to anyone that would like to add stuff here 8) 8)

[etat]

Duane, is one particular brand of onion better than another?  If so, what is the best way to recognize the difference between these brands ;D ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Look for the Trademark, CK.  V_I_D_A_L_I_A 8) :D :D :D :D

[etat]

jeepman, won't you please come back and rescue all us wannabes who think we may or actually may not know the best way to weld up a DanG shaft.  please please don't let us scare ya off, most of us is jest a bunch of rednecks, or yoopers, or alligator chasers or texicans or something like that anyway.  DanG it, I hope I ain't left somebody out! 8) 8) 8)

[Don P]

Am I right in understanding that heating to the critical point is also the point the metal becomes non-magnetic, this is the indicator for quenching to harden initially?

Then can I draw the temper in the oven...I'll wait till the ladies are gone?

Does this only work for 10xx type steel, like 1075 and above or are many steels done this way?

I think that high carbon steels are adversely affected by heat in their tempering range ~500 degrees and high speed tool steels can withstand grinding heat up to about 1000 degrees?

I had an onion the other day on a roadhouse burger that I think deserves a try on that stripping galvy problem.

[EZ]

When ever I'm welding something and want it to be straight, before I even start the project I put it in my head that it will take time, alot of time. As soon as I think I got it made I start to get in a hurry and the next thing you know, warp.
EZ

[D._Frederick]

Warp has always been my biggest problem when fabricating with hot roll steel. To over come the warp problem, I end up using a lot of bolts. I will weld an assembly together, then bolt it to what every I am making. If it don't work or if I screwed it up, it easy to unbolt and add it to the junk pile.

How do the rest of you guy's overcome the warp problem from welding? Is there something magic you do?

[Fla._Deadheader]

We have a 2' length of ¼" X 2" Angle that we clamp stuff in, to prevent warp.

[etat]

There are only two types of tools that I feel that I could actually temper, and it would be a success as such without more study on the individual piece made or being made.  That would be a chisel, or a tool such as a ax.  And then only if they are tool steel, and not stainless or some type of alloy as some chisels (and maybe axes) are now. If you heat the whole thing to nonmagnetic and only quench the edges, in most cases that will be good enough without drawing temper.  I once attented a blacksmith workshop at the working blacksmith museum in  memphis and this is what they generaly agreed to be a method that would work in most cases. The sudden cooling on the edge in oil, and the slow cooling of the body which is not quenched

Florida Deadhead, I 'might' coulda helped ya in plowing that field.  I've got a bunch of old grader blades.  Took me forever to find out what kind of steel they was and how to weld them.   Grader blades are made from something calles "Astralloy 5" and the steel is typically only used for  grader blades and armoured car plating... I forgot where it's made but I've got notes on it somewhere :P

[Fla._Deadheader]

CK, you can cut them "Bits" like butter, with a torch, and they make GREAT "grates" in the bottom of a stove or furnace. Last forever. ;)

  "D", clamping is essential before welding pieces together. We also "eyeball" as we weld. The cooling of the weld bead, draws the pieces out of shape. We will "spot" a tiny bead and then "spot" another directly opposite, trying to keep both sides hot. A lot of times they will counter-act each other and cool very close to what we want. A final adjustment with a hammer will get us close enough.

  We also spot weld gussets to hold a piece at whatever angle we want. Grind or torch them off when yer done. That will keep yer part pretty close. There's lots of tricks. Just need to NOT be in a hurry. I tend to rush things more, mostly because I Don'T see as well, and everything looks "right on".
 
  When I weld, I will usually run right off the seam, maybe a ½". : :  Used to weld 2 piece telescoping towers, to 150' tall, for wind generators. : : Won'T even try it now. That's what Son's are for. ;) ;) ;D ;D

[ADfields]

Don P
Am I right in understanding that heating to the critical point is also the point the metal becomes non-magnetic, this is the indicator for quenching to harden initially?
Yup you got it!

Then can I draw the temper in the oven...I'll wait till the ladies are gone?
Yup, this also works great if you know the true oven temp.

Does this only work for 10xx type steel, like 1075 and above or are many steels done this way?
Works with all carbon steels with enough carbon content to harden.

I think that high carbon steels are adversely affected by heat in their tempering range ~500 degrees
( Yes they are. )
and high speed tool steels can withstand grinding heat up to about 1000 degrees? Yup, they are tungstens, nickles and other alloys, will throw a flat spark and are VERY hard to weld.

D.
The way I deal with warp is to plan ahead before welding.   Try not to get a ton of heat in any one spot at once, spared it out some hear then some there.   Don't just tack it then lay a single bead, jump around and control it what you can when welding.   You cant help but get warp so after it's all welded drag out the big rosebud and do some warping it back the way you need it to be. ;)   It takes an understanding of what you are doing but after some thinking and try and see you can get it very very close.   I have been known to use all kinds of things to pull, push, tug and hold the part as I heat it hear and there with the rosebud. ;)   If you had it in a good fixture that will hold it then you can just heat the hole thing from one end to the other and let it normalize to kill the stress and warp.   I just don't make the same thing over and over so a fixture is not worth the trouble for me.   You can also lessen the warp by preheating the steel with a rosebud before welding I have been told but I have only used preheating for welding of high carbon steel in small chunks.   My brother the aerospace contractor has what he calls shaker tables that he can bolt a part down on and vibrate it at different speeds for as long as over night.   This relives the stress in the part from welding, cutting, heat changes and what not.   He showed me a Mustang missile housing change .180 of an inch in 14 inch of length just from half an hour on the shaker table!   They come out of the lathe out of round as much as .400" but after shaking are within .010" of round, it's something to see!
Andy

[D._Frederick]

Hey thanks,
I always clamp things together and use heavy pieces to hold thing straight, but after welding, they always spring some. Will try heating to releave stress next time I am making something, tried the 8 lb sledge trick ( pound the hell out of it) but don't like the outcome.

[jeepman]

This thread has gotten long in the last couple days. I believe cktate and ADfields have hit my approach pretty well. For any material up to 4140, I'll use either ER70S3 wire or 7018 electrode. I have welded RR track with 70S mig wire, but it took careful pre and post heating. You can use a 70 series wire with a Tig on a small job, but bigger jobs get slow with that process. There is no right way to weld all shafts. Books can be written on the subject and have. If you don't know what you have and your life depends on it, don't weld it. Get a known steel. Just for welding a 4140 shaft to a mild steel hub, I'll make sure they are clean (they've just come off the lathe so they are clean) I'll press the two pieces together because they have to fit close. Then preheat both pieces to 400 degrees or til they fry spit if you don't have a temp stick. Then get into a position where I can weld all the way around without stopping (very important) Overlap the start and finish of weld. Lay it down in sand and walk away. When it is cool enough to bare hand, put it to use and trust it. What scares me is welding two hard metals that aren't the same. One may preheat to 300 and the other to 450. This is almost impossible under the best conditions. As far as spark testing goes, I can tell if it is cast iron, mild steel or carbon steel. That is about it. You can test the hardness by several means, but that wont tell you the content. If it isn't marked, you really never know what is in a piece of stock. If I can, I'll shrink fit a hub every time. There is no weld to fail, just a hub you'll never get off. The best bet is to get a book ("Handbook for welders" for example), find a steel that fits your needs, buy that type, and weld it the way the book says.
That is my opinion from work. At home, I cut a few corners. Tempering is a whole nuther ball o' wax. Practice makes pretty good. I've learned how to turn good steel into rubber and glass and once in a while a good tool comes out.

[jeepman]

D Fredrick , EZ,
Warping happens. To minimize it, tack everything together before you weld anything. Use a jig whenever possible. Weld hot and fast on 1/8 and up. 1/8 down you can weld downhill or jump around the part with small spot welds until it is welded.

[etat]

Thank you Jeepman.  You said it but I would like to add again, before welding all rust or paint, or oil, or galvanize should be removed from parts to bare metal befroe welding.  All of these will contaminate and weaken the weld.

[etat]

Large parts are very hard to preheat properly.  A regular torch tip will not be sufficient in most cases.  A large rosebud tip as mentioned is better, but will not always be sufficient.  To heat something that is to big to get on a forge I usually use a large piece of kaowool blanket, this is typically used to line forges, and wrap loosely around the piece and heat with a large roofing torch.  This is practically the same thing as a weedburner torch.  The kaowool blanket will hold the heat in as the piece heats up.  If welding or brazing cast iron to repair preheating becomes absolutely necessary, or the piece will crack.  It has been my experience that a repair on cast iron will never be as strong as the origional piece, but there may be other people who can do better.

[jeepman]

You are right about preheating. A #4 oxweld won't do. At work, I use an oven with a natural gas blowtorch and a compressed air line. At home I use a coal forge.
The oven is the magic wand for shrinking hubs too.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Don't have easy access to a rosebud or oven, so, if the part to be press fit is not too large, I put the other part in the freezer for at least 2 days. Gotta work a lot faster, but, haven't had a problem, yet

  Helped a farmer one time, install new cyl liners in a 8N. Told him to freeze 'em and soap the block. He got the first one ½ way in and it stuck. I had to torch it out. Being as they come in sets of 4, I had to talk pretty fast to get 1 liner from the dealer. Told him to put it in the freezer with the others and WAIT 2 days and I would help him. Everything went as planned. He couldn't believe they just fell in the block.

  THEN he says, I think the block leaks anti-freeze??? I checked, and the whole 1 corner was split, about 8 inches.
  I drilled a hole on the bottom of the split and ground a groove on top, where the head sits. Welded it up in sections with a buzz-box and Nickle rod. Got the top ground flat and after he put the engine together there was 1 tiny little squirt. He got some stuff at the local drugstore ( I know it as Water Glass) and we put just enough in the radiator till the squirt stopped. It never leaked while he was alive, about 8 years.

  Maybe I'm just lucky with what I do ??? ???  ;D ;D

[Don P]

Now your talking... I've been trying to repair my saw's rear feed pulley. It was made with a pipe as an axle and the pulley spun on it. The pipe wore down and then bent, wearing out the pulley too. I'm trying to insert a slightly larger pipe in the pulley and will weld it on then insert this axle in some pipe sleeves. At the moment the pulley is stuck just on the new pipe, I need to drive it about 6" further. Everything is cold now, will I fare better if its all warm or is it gonna be tough either way?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Don,

In my experiences, once it's stuck, yer screwed. Heating will not usually work, as the thicker piece, pulley hub, will heat the thinner piece, pipe, and they will swell together.

  If I understand correctly, you are attempting to get a larger size pipe into the pulley, and at the same time, slide it over the old pipe shaft???

  Believe I would cut the pipe off and find a solid shaft to fit inside the old pipe. THEN, thread a hacksaw blade through the pulley hub, and proceed to cut the pipe out of the hub. Then, get the right size spacer to fit both, may have to machine it, and put it together that way. The shaft inside the pipe won't wobble, and you have a thick spacer to anchor the pulley on. If I understand your predicament : :  ???

[etat]

Hey Fla. I was following you there for a minute, and then it got kind of blury on me.  The part I actually under stood was cutting off the stuck pipe, and then hacksawing the piece stuck in the pully to get it out. That is probably the best way, me I'd probably cut off the pipe and try to knock the chunk off that's stuck back out the way it came in, if I could find a piece of pipe or shaft  that was just right to use as a punch, and if too much of it wasn't drove in there.  First to admit, your way is safer, probably quicker too if ya ain't got a lot of odd sized stuff laying around.  

Now, I would like to hear the rest of what you said cause I done got confused trying to follow the instructions.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 :D :D :D :D
  First, let me emphasize that hammerin on a pulley will get ya in more trouble, quicker, than near anything I can think of. I broke one last week : :

  I'm assuming that the pipe that the pulley fits on will be too small to fit the pulley. He said it was wore out bigger??? A piece of solid bar that fits inside the pipe would get the pipe long again, and be solid. Get a spacer to fit the pulley and the solid bar. 1 chunk of a larger solid round could be machined to fit the new shaft and the pulley. ??? ;D ;D  Got it ? ;D

[etat]

When I weld, I will usually run right off the seam, maybe a ½".

I would like to add just a little more detail on the stopping part.  Especially if there isn't a seam you can run off of? Just before you stop or break the arc, hesitate and back up just a fraction to let the weld build up just a bit at the end instead of just tapering off? If a weld were going to fracture that tapering off will be it's best starting point?  And I would bet a co-cola that FLa. already does that without thinking about it.

When starting an arc don't start exactly right on top of the seam or, that you are trying to weld?   If you make a hesitation wrong it may deposite a small amount of slag in the weld before it gets hot enough to take?.  (A wire welder would be some different).  I try to strike the arc just a little ways (a inch or less usually) and then immeadiately move to where I will be welding?

If you are having a hard time following your seam marking it with white chalk  such as used for marking steel?

In my opinion one of the best things that has happened to arc welding in the last few years is the newer electronic helmets.  The prices have come down so they are more afforadably, and I don't know how they work.  No arc or welding, and you can see through em.  Strike an arc, and they'll darken before the flash burns your eyes. The better ones have adjustments to adjust the darkness of the plate according the the brightness of the arc..


I left question marks because someone may have better ideas and I would like to hear them too.

[ADfields]

My Dad always has a tank full of liquid nitrogen for the semen for breeding cattle around his place and I sure miss that stuff for freeze fitting parts now that I live in Alaska and Dad's A-I tank is in Arizona. :-/   You can dip out a couple cups of the stuff in a pan and sit a cylinder liner, shaft, bearing race or what ever I/D part you got in it for 5 minutes and it will fall in every time! ;)  

Don
Sad to say it's also been my sad experiences that once it sticks your in big bad trouble!!   But working with pipe you may have a shot at pressing it off with a shop press if you can fit it into one, and some heat.   If not you are down to Harold's hacksaw blade or some of the other old farm boy tricks I'm sure you know. ;)

We are getting a ton of good info in this thread like the kaowool trick! :P   Thanks cktate! :P  For those that don't already know what it is, it's a fluffy white high temp insulation used in forges and kilns.   You can get it at most of your local ceramic supply shops in small bats and it's great stuff to have around for all kinds of things.  
Andy

[Fla._Deadheader]

Ya din't quite foller my point about being off the seam by ½". I MEANT to either side, nowhere near the seam  ;D ;D :D

  I wear them DanG Glasses and get the reflection of light on the glasses, even before striking an arc. I tried puttin a towel or rag over the back of my head to get rid of the light. Worked for a spell, till it fell down and caught fire. ;D ;D :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

AD, ya otter be able to just set them parts outside for 30 minutes, now. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

[ADfields]

Na, it's 18 above outside around hear and the liquid nitrogen is something like 230 below.   Ya know---------it would suck to spill some of it on your foot up hear in Alaska! :D :D :D
Andy

[etat]

This site  covers a few of the basics on Heat Treating :
Hardening and Tempering http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/heat_faq_index.htm


Below is one quote from this that deserves some attention.

"In general hard parts are always more brittle than soft parts. Using parts that are too hard can be dangerous. On machines this can mean parts that may explode or shatter."

[D._Frederick]

Cktate,
I am glad you brought up about the "electonic helmets", I looked at them at a welding supply store. The price started at $200 and up. Harbor Freight has them for about $80, both have made in china stamped on them. The only thing that I looked at was how fast they changed states, they both changed in the milli second range. The higher priced ones had a larger viewing area.  When you weld with this hood, how does your eyes feel at the end of the day? What features should I look for in a electronic hood and what price should I pay?

[etat]

 The one I have is an older speed glass xl that uses batteries with an adjustment for shade, and another adjustment for how quick it will lighten up after welding. I understand the newer ones don't need batteries, they rely on light like one of the calculators that doesn't need batteries. It's really neat being able to put your rod or wire right where you want it and then just start welding without closing the hood.  It really beats me how those things can darken before you see the spark.  They are not without some problems, in the sunlight, or if you are in a shop and have a bright light behind you sometimes they will darken when you aren't welding.  That's kind of aggravating, at first I duct taped a piece of leather on the hood but it just didn't suit me, that was too aggravating in itself. I learned how to work around it by keeping the sun facing me whenever possible, or trying to work around having a bright light behind me.  Whenever this is not possible the hood behaves like a regular hood anyway, dark all the time, so it's not the end of the world, just takes a little getting used too. I had an accident last year in which I busted a kidney.  (that's a bad thing).  After I got out of the hospital and a little better, but not better enough to roof I got bored and decided to build a shop.  I built on the ground, four 30 foot trusses out of old house trailer frames, angle iron, and channel iron.  I then built on the ground the walls out of 4 inch square tubing, and angle iron, walls were 30 feet, by 10 feet.  I couldn't get around much so evening I'd have my guys arrange the stuff so I could tack weld it together.  The next day while they'd be working I'd spend most of the day sitting in a chair, or on a stool welding.  Never burnt or fatigued my eyes any more than if using a regular hood.  I don't know what the difference would be in a cheaper one and a more expensive one, but I have a friend who bought a harbor freight and is happy with it, or so he says, I didn't try it.  Once using one, and getting used to it and learning how to work around the light, well I'd absolutely hate having to go back to the old style.

Side note:Anyone who does ever burn their eyes raw potatoe slices will help take the heat out.  

Once I had foreman that well, you know the type.  He'd come look over my shoulder at what I was doing to the point it became very annonying..  Years ago, regular hood.  He'd wait until just as I flipped my hood to look away.  I learned to close my eyes, start the arc, and then flip the hood.  Took exactly one day to break him from standing over my shoulder.Everybody had steel lockers that they had made.  The day before the plant shut down, (they were going to let all the foremans take their lockers home) I solid welded the door closed on his, hinges and all during lunch.  Had me some lookouts.  Not one person told who had done it.  He spent the rest of the day cutting the welds out with an air gouger for an arc welder.  Made a real mess of his locker.

[OneWithWood]

I bought, or more correctly, attempted to buy an auto helmet from Harbour Frieght.  When I opened the box I found a dissassembled helmet missing some parts and the reason for return that the fellow who had purchased and returned it before me had filled out!  

I do not trade with that company any more.  

I purchased my auto helmet locally because I needed it pronto.  My only cause for consternation is that the high output florescent lighting in my shop will cause the helmet to darken prematurely.  When that happens I turn out all the lights except for a drop light to illuminate the piece I am working on.

Major disclaimer - I am an extreme novice when it comes to welding.  Sure have learned a bunch from this post - thanks guys.

[EZ]

I've done this one other time, cutting a piece out of a tubular axle and sliding a pipe inside and welding around it. The axle was used for a trailer I made to haul fire wood and what ever else. I used it for a couple two years and sold it cause I was brain dead I guess. The axle seemed to work fine, but was wondering how safe it really is to do this.
EZ

[Fla._Deadheader]

We do that to Mobile home axles, with the joining piece on the outside. The axles are also slightly bent or "sprung" to add a way of adjusting "caster-camber"--toe-in, toe-out, so the tires wear better. Lots of folks don't know this. I will TRY to remember to take some pics when we go back to logging.
  I think that the weight is on the ends of the axles, where the springs are, and not as much on the entire length of the axle. Of course, 1 axle is more prone to failure than multiples.
  Welding tubing is MUCH different than solid round stock. We have 3--6000lb. axles on the log trailer, and, I doubt if the tubes will be the first thing to fail.

[DanG]

 :D I guess I got lucky when I ordered the cheapo auto helmet from Harbor Freight. They were out of'em! : I'm still using the old fashioned kind.  I find that I can see the work piece a little, if I give my eyes a couple of seconds to adjust after lowering the helmet. This works for me when welding in bright sunlight, or with a 500w halogen worklight.

[etat]

If welding thin angle or sheet metal using a piece of copper clamped to the backside will help prevent burning through and help pull the heat away from the piece.  I don't like to use brass because it will give off toxic fumes. If there were an occasion I was joining pieces of pipe or tubing end to end you need full penetration for strength.  One way to do this is to make an insert, If I have nothing of the right size for the insert I take a small section of the same size tubing or pipe I'm welding together, and cut  a split in it length ways.  Then take a hammer or vise and close the section back together.  By doing this you can make the diameter of the 'insert' smaller.  Get it to where it will fit inside the sections of pipe tightly and when you push the two sections together get them ready to weld by clamping them in a section of angle iron. Leave about an 1/8 inch gap where the two pieces join.  You may want to tack it in a couple of places, remove the clamps and angle, grind the tacks down, and shift the piece around so you can re clamp the angle and tack again.  This way when you do weld the gap will allow you full penetration to the back up insert.  You can also do something like this when joining angle or plate, end to end, clamp the pieces and leave a small gap that will allow the weld to penetrate through.  Often on such angle or plate when I turn the piece over I will take a grinder and grind through the joint from the backside until I have solid weld with no slag or pits.  If it is large pieces I sometimes use an air gouger to cut back down to the weld Then I will fill this back up with weld.  I almost always weld angle or channel iron on the inside first after I get it tacked all the way around.  Welding on the inside first will allow you to grind off the tacks on the back side and cut a groove into the joint with the grinder to help achieve full penetration there, again making a much stronger joint.  

[etat]

As said earrlier warp and movement of the metal is a problem when adjoining pieces.  When doing so I constantly keep checking the piece I'm working on.  Often coaxing it with a shop hammer is enough if you do it before the piece cools off.  

[D._Frederick]

Cktate,
What do you recommend when you need to butt weld heavier material like 1/2 plate or 3/8 angle, they use to say to grind a bevel? What do you do if you are limited with only 180 - 200amps? It was mentioned about using a soft rod to start then a harder rod to finish, any comments.

Thanks for going into detail, you have added a lot of knowledge about welding.

[etat]

grinding a bevel on each piece is still very much valid for maximum penetration and strength.  Especially on thicker pieces with a smaller welder.  Before I bought a larger welder I would tack the pieces together and use smaller diameter rods.  I'd also run a narrower bead, chip the slag, wire brush, and keep doing this running multiple beads until getting the weld filled in or built up sufficiently. You can weave the bead some but if you try building up too much all at one time weaving you can wind up depositing some of the slag into the weld as you are weaving, thus weakening the weld.  Also this builds up a LOT of heat quickly and will make the piece want to pull and warp.  I never was really any good welding with 7018 rods on an ac welder, even though you can get them in ac.  On strictly an AC welder I would stick with a 6011 1/8 inch rod. I'd use this for both tacking, and welding.  It has been my experience that a 6011 rod makes a good strong weld and gets a little better penetration than a 6013, but the slag is harder to chip off and the weld is a little harder to clean.  Thourly chipping and cleaning each weld before continuing to build up is EXTREMELY important to the strength of the weld, as a good fit up to the pieces being welded.  If the pieces were cut with a torch it is important to clean up the cut with a grinder, don't just stick em together and start welding.  I always try to weld something so that if it breaks or twists it will be elsewhere on the piece than where I welded.  For an example, and I AM NOT claiming to be this good.  Look at race cars.  They are made mostly out of tubing, bent and welded together.  These welds must be strong enough that in a crash the welds MUST not fail.  The car may fold up, pieces may fly off of it, but the welds MUST NOT fail.  The welds and joints must be as strong as the tubing itself.  These cars are actually heliarc or tig welded.  However, even with a small welder and smaller rods you can achieve similar results, it will just be a lot more work doing everything properly, but it CAN be done.

[Duane_Moore]

  well  the onions's I use are yellow onions from walmart...this trick came from a sheet metal man in Mo. for sheet stainless. as for welding temp I use tempstick, don't know if you like this or not, when heating connecting rods and wrist pins, I heat them in Oil in an electric skillet, to the temp I need them tempstick them,  this brodens the temp to all the metal,and does not create hot spots, and the A/I cooling workes well, just put some in a thermos and dip for cold, Use (stanley) thermos, no pund intended. Have a 12X36 lathe for bushings, for exact fit, but your cutting will work good for farm projects, also a good set of mic. are a must. by the way pop can are .0004 thick for shims.this works for shiming up spockets, and hubs, and cutting Key ways beats welding, only on blower motors use Two cuts, as the crankshaft will turn the hub out inside, also splinning as in axel or P.T.O. seams to stop the spinning of shafts. this is a very inexpensive process, as you can buy P.T.O. shimes about anywhere., well enough,  shut up Duane

[etat]

I see, uh huh, said the blind man, no pun intended, ya been holdin out on us.  Betcha lots of other folks got neat home brewed tricks too.  A lath huh, now I sure wouldn't mindin having one of them.  For cutting thin sheet stock mild steel an Irwin Metal Star Blade will cut it like butter.  And they'll last longer than you think.  I bought a bunch off of ebay once for 6 bucks apiece but they are a lot higher new.  Now ya better wear a long sleeve and full face shield but they will fit in a regular skillsaw, I use a worm drive saw.  I have cut up to 1/4 inch plate with em but you have to take your time.  Every once in a while stop and squirt em with wd40 or similar.  Used to use em to cut angle before I got a band saw and a cut off saw.  I don't like a cutoff saw, to me they're just not all they're cracked up to be. Or maybe I'm using the wrong blade or something.  Course it'd be a lot better to have a plasma torch up yer sleeve, just ain't ever convinced the wife how important that would be to have around.  I'll fool her one of these days, maybe.  Lath, huh, you old dog you. 8) 8) 8)

[jwood]

 hey fla deadhead you ever think about taking your glasses off an using a cheater lens in the helmet..there is still glare from behind if you are outside with sun behind or bright lights inside but i seem to see better with out specs..
 on the subject of cast iron when welding things like manifolds i find it easier to bolt them to a piece of flat plate this keeps manifold from warping ,make small welds and peen the weld to relieve stress.also as mentioned by ck at the end of each weld hesitate and move rod back into the weld puddle.on thin cast manifolds and pump housings i dont preheat just weld peen and put in a lime box which slows cooling..on heavy pieces preheat, weld ,peen an put in lime box if it'll fit..
 on the electronic helmets i've used the solar lens and the battery powered lens ..i like solar they are thinner and my cheater fits better..jackson makes one that costs $120  also
homedepot sells the lincoln which is the same as jackson around the same price...the solar is sold at welding supply houses

[Duane_Moore]

 :PCK. tell us about them thar, Irwin  type blades, my cutoff saw eats up blade like pancakes, hate it, use bandsaw mostly, but slow, tell me about them thar blades,  Duh--Duane

[etat]

Irwin Blade link I found. http://www.1-home-improvement.com/circular-saws/Irwin-18030-7-14-B00008US7L.html  I originally bought these blades to cut commercial tin for roofing.  Was really impressed.  So one day tried it on 1/8 inch sheet metal when I was making a new fender for my trailor.  So, when I started my shop decided to try it on 1/4 inch by 2 inch angle iron.  Was cutting pieces up in 6 inch pieces for clips.  Guy working for me cut about 40 one evening, one blade, broke two teeth on blade, probably by getting in a bind.  Still used the saw to cut steel, missing teeth didn't make a whole lot of difference.  Had some 1/2 inch by 3 inch flat stock.  Cut these into small pieces for reinforcing.  The down side, safetty equiptment and heavy long sleeves is a must.  Throwing a lot of metal chips out the front that will blind you, or cut your skin.  AND, the thing is LOUD cutting.  Makes a very annoying racket.  I spray the blade with WD40 after each cut.  If cutting a long ways on steel plate sometimes I stop and spray the blade.  I also mark my line and take a squeeze bottle full of cutting oil to oil the line on the steel I'm cutting.  This will add a LOT to the life of the blade. I use a worm drive skillsaw.  It is very possible that these would burn up a cheap skillsaw.  I have seen them for sale at the lumber yard.  Havn't ever seen them at lowes or HD but some areas may be different.  Duane, say you can find and buy one, if it don't cut like I say let me know and I'll send you your money back.  Saying this to let you know I'm serious, I would have never thought a blade with carbide teeth for a skillsaw would cut steel at all, much less do a good Job.    Again, you can't let em get in a bind, it'll snatch a tooth out if you ain't careful.

J wood, thanks for the info on cast, with that I need all the help I can get.  It's one of them things I kinda know what to do, just not what I'd consider a professional at it.  Anybody that's ever set a mig up for aluminum I'd like to hear more about too as I've never tried that.  My main first question would be will a small mig feed the aluminum wire without springing for a spool gun.  Forgot to add, on that old helmet of mine, if you leave it on it'll run the battery down.  Happened to me more than once and now I try to keep a few spare batteries.  Seems solar would be much better.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Cheater lens, eh???  What's that ???
  I have used plain old skilsaw blades in a skilsaw to cut sheet metal. Put up a Butler building on the farm. Used the skilsaw to trim the cuts around the doors and such.
  TRICK IS,drummy,drummy,drummy,drummy; Install the blade backwards----- TA-DAH. Wear 3 sets of earball covers. The noise is deafining, HUH ??? Never tried Carbide, just plain steel blades. Throws chips everywhere, speshully down yer neck ???

  Aluminum-----If it ain't clean,clean,clean, ya better have LOTS of hair on yer head :D :D  

  We bought one of them handy-dandy Miller 120 plug in the wall mig welders. Works very well. Welded Aluminum first thing. Looked like I was a preeefeshunal welder. The longer I welded the worse it got. I'm talking days, not inches of bead.

  Seein as how this ain't a preeefeshunal forum, I will splain the mig welder. It has a liner inside the plastic coated feed cable. The liner looks just like a choke cable or throttle cable on a lawnmower or such.  Problem is, the aluminum wire that feeds through the liner, is soft, and the liner will scrape small amounts of aluminum off and eventually it builds up inside and starts to feed badly. THEN, ya get the wire to not feed at all, and it will wad up inside the machine, at the beginning of the feed cable.  Thats always fun. Then, ya get to open up the machine and start unwindin the mess. Get it all nice and straight and start over. Might weld fair for about 2 inches, then, wads up again.

  We called the dealer and found that there is a liner made for aluminum wire. It has a Teflon lining. Great, I will be right there. Don'T bother , he says, they quit making them : : :
  That's when we bought the Tig welder, used, for a song.

  A spool gun is about the best way to weld aluminum with a mig welder. Grind it and then wire brush it and then weld it. If it has a build-up of dull oxidation, it should be ground through to reveal bright material.
  Some welders won't weld aluminum, period. It needs everything to be right, to do a good job.
   We get to weld aluminum that has been in Salt Water and has corrosion, salt, oysters, barnacles and bottom paint on it. Mostly people that trailer their boats with the outboard down or the outdrive down. Breaks that little skag piece off right nicely. : ;D ;D ;D  Them are LOTS of fun to weld, without heating the gear oil and building up pressure, and blowing the seals out. ;D  Can you say, KA-CHING ??? ;) ;) :D :D :D

[EZ]

When I'm welding heavier metals with the mig, I push the wire in, in other words I weld backwards. You get alot better penatrasion(sp) this way. Unless your mig is big enough to handle the job.
EZ

[etat]

EZ, go ;Dod thing to mention weldin backwards with the mig.  Also this keeps the main flow of gas, usuallyl either co2, or argon co2 mixture, I understand you use pure argon for aluminum but I've never welded aluminum, cooling the puddle and keeping oxygen out.  The gas on a mig replaces the flux on the regular weldin rods.  Addin to Fla. post, when I did turn a blade backwards to cut thin sheet I used a fine tooth blade such as for plywood.  The Irwin will preform much better.  DanG, I might have to polish up my singing skills, I'd sure like to have one of them tigs. for a song! ;D ;D 8) 8)

[D._Frederick]

If  you were going buy a single phase MIG welder, what make would you get and with what accessories. I would like a welder that would weld 1/4 inch hot rolled.

[Fla._Deadheader]

I haven't kept up with the models, but, a Miller 240 Volt machine would be my choice. Used them a bunch building towers. You can turn it down to weld sheet metal and up to weld ¼" stock. We actually welded some ½" stuff with no problem. Used overlapping beads, no problem.

  Use CO2 for anything but Aluminum. You can use Stargon, but, we prefer straight Argon for Aluminum. You can get the spool gun for Aluminum, as an extra, most anytime. Call Miller Dealers. They sometimes have trade-ins and will demo the used one for you. There are other brands, but, we prefer Miller.

  This is one place ya don't wanna skimp. Ed had to use a Lincoln Century (Home Depot) Tig on Tuesday. Took forever to get a decent weld on Aluminum. Guy asked him how he liked it. Ed said "piece of S**t". It was one of them suitcase sized models. Ours weighs about 1200 pounds. It's old, but, works soooo  fiiiine. ;D ;D

[jwood]

D Frederick..it depends on how much welding you want to do .
the little 110 volt welders have a 20 % duty cycle meaning you should only weld 2 minutes out of 10 ..welding longer than  2 min heats windings in tranformer an will shorten life of welder..larger machines 220 volt 150 , 180, 200 amp have between 60 an 100 % duty cycle..usualy  100% on lower amperages tapering to 60 % at max amps..you can stick 1/4"
metal together on one of the 110 volt machines that get to 130 amps, miller and hobart handler , but it can be tough on them if you weld for long periods..you know i cant remember if you can get 130 out of the handler but its a good machine for what it is ..if doing much welding look at millers 150 and 200 miller matics...you cant wear em out..if they break they can be repaired reasonably ..there are some like the hobart 180 that the pc board cost is outrageous..unless they have
fixed its problem in the last couple years..the millers can weld 023 to 045 wire ..i'll check with the welder repair guy i know an see which machines are comin in alot for repair and which ones are giving good service..

[Duane_Moore]

  thanks for the help on the saw blades, will try them, have used a plywood blade backwards before, on siding, works fair, thanks for that also Guys,  I use a Lincoln SP200 welder, and use a spool gun for alum, co2, because of cost, my welding looks like the thing chicken's do, Grandad made me flash grind all shafts with the flow to keep the molicular(sp) structure in line, or reline the molicules, what I know  Me from Wyoming, Duane :D

[EZ]

I have a 180-200 Miller, aint had no problem with it. What ever type or size you get, make sure you get the big bottle.
EZ

[Don P]

If not you are down to Harold's hacksaw blade or some of the other old farm boy tricks I'm sure you know.

Only farm boy tricks I know go something like "hit it like I live", "Don't force it, get a bigger hammer" So I got the 16 lb out and frailed to fit. Thought since I made a mess of describing my predicament, I'd show y'all what a bad welder I am  ;D. The pulley used to spin on the orange pipe on the left, the worn out bent thing. I kicked around the scrap pile and made the mess you see, the pulley is now "interference fit" on a pipe and spins in the outer pipes you see...bend that I say.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 :D :D :D :D  Don, looks like ya mighta misplaced yer plumb-bob  :D :D :D :D :D

  Don'T feel left out. I betcha every welder on this forum does that kinda "adjustin", occasionally : : :D :D :D

[Duane_Moore]

  you guys quit it. welded a Volarie front end under a 56 Ford pickup today. and all I could think of. IS IT OK. Yous guys gots me scared, Done this many times before and didn't even think about it, but NOW,  Oh well ifin it brakes it brakes,  Duh--Duane    :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/TEXT

[Don P]

Bob?, I saw that sucker sneak off when I got the persuader out  :D ;D
Hope to get back to makin square ones out of round ones next weekend, got the neighbors logs sittin at the front end. Thats my dust trailer in front of the homemade blower at the front. Need to take a load to work, its mud season around the jobsite

[EZ]

Been talking to a few people that say tigs are the best welder you can buy. Couple of them said if I had a tig I wouldnt need my stick or mig welder.
Is this true and why are they the best.
EZ

[ADfields]

Well, I don't think thats true at all.   I have a tig and it hooks on my Miller stick welder and I love it but it seldom gets used compared to the stick part.   It's slower, things got to be 100% clean to tig them, it's hard to do overhead and get in tight spots with a tig.   I don't like a mig myself but they are very handy for thin stuff and in a fab shop that you are laying bead all day long, I just find myself following the wire out of the gun and getting a ugly weld with them. :   Tig can give you a great weld with no slag on all kinds of stuff that cant be stick or miged at all.   I would say they all have there jobs and none is the best or worst welder, just different.
Andy

[EZ]

Thanks AD.
One of our welders down at the shop, let me try the tig today. I see what you mean about slower and hard to get it in some places. I tig some mild steel, brass, and aluminum it was pretty cool. I like the al. weld the most, but I would probably only use it once a year, maybe.
Thanks again.
EZ