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Author Topic: Husky 353 vs 346xp  (Read 7452 times)

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Offline Bobcat_pa

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Husky 353 vs 346xp
« on: December 25, 2003, 03:40:13 pm »
Background info :
1--I own a model 353.
2--I have only a basic knowledge of small engines.

Question:
The Husky 353 & 346xp just seem to be too close in specs to both be in the product line.    I see the 346xp has more rpm's and just a .1 more hp, but assume this requires you to run a max throttle .   The 353 has more cc's than the 346xp, but it has less hp.    Can give me a better understanding of these two saws ?

Offline Kevin

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2003, 05:03:52 pm »
The pro saws have more power to weight.
More saw less weight.

Offline SasquatchMan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2003, 07:46:16 pm »
What K says, but let's look at how it comes about - the "fast" saws like the 346xp have some lighter components, frame wise, but also a thinner piston head which is  more prone to damage, apparently.  

This is kind of like a comparison of an old  V8 305 and a new aluminum block V6 in a truck - similar capabilities, but the V8 is less efficient (and MAY be able to do the work longer).

I don't mean to say that a 346xp won't last as long as a 353 - the comparison is merely by way of an analogy.  The americans have always gotten horsepower by having 8 big pistons going at 2000 rpm, and the Japanese, for instance, can develop the same power with 4 small pistons at 7000 rpm - and you can do what amounts to the same trick with a chainsaw...
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Offline qatanlison

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2003, 06:24:22 am »
The 346XP has a very aggresive engine character, fast accelaration - developed for limbing - not a very good saw for pulling long bars - over 18".

/Ola

Offline Bobcat_pa

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2003, 07:32:53 am »
So good speed, but a little short on muscle ?       Am I correct in thinking "torque" is the proper word for muscle ?  

Offline dozerdan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2003, 08:08:38 am »
Hi
The 353/346 have the same basic bottom ends. The main difference is the cylinder design. The 346 uses a cylinder that is manufactures my Mahle,they produce good quality cylinders for many of the major manufacturers including Husky and Stihl.
The 353/359 cylinders are made in house and are of lesser quality then the Mahle parts. That's why they can sell those saws at less money then the 346 and the 357.
If woods mods are done on the 346/353,the little 346 will rule.
I have never experienced any piston failure on the 346,to date. I have built over 50 of them, anywhere from woods mods to full blown with pipes. I even make the pistons lighter in some areas.
Danny Henry
Central Pa.
Home of the Original Power Ported Saws
570 658 6232
dozerdan@sunlink.net or
dozerdan@nmax.net

Offline Bobcat_pa

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2003, 09:13:08 am »
Dozendan:  what do you mean my "woods mods" ?     bob

Offline jokers

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2003, 10:32:47 am »
Hi Sasquatchman

I`m not sure where you come by your assumptions regarding lighter components and lessened durability in the 346 but you are mistaken.

Bobcat

Dozerdan made some good points but I don`t feel that he covered this one, the 346 makes peak power in stock form at 700 rpm more than the 353. How much difference in cut speed do you think the additional rpm makes? It`s huge. Given that the 346 also has a higher, albeit slight, peak Hp than the 353, there is no race between the 353 and 346 unless you are a ham fisted operator who runs dull chain. Neither saw is a "long bar saw" even though the 353 does have a slightly wider powerband. I`ve had both the 353 and 346 and the 346 wins hands down in stuff 16" and under. Both saws are great saws for the money though, especially when compared to other brands.

Dozerdan has developed quite a following for his modified saws and to top it off, he seems to have the best price around to boot. I recently had the pleasure of running one of his 346s which had all of the punch of a stocker and then some, but also had a much wider than stock power band. Very nice package.

BTW Bobcat, the 346 when properly tuned is more like blinding speed rather than "good speed", they turn 14.7k right out of the box.

Russ

Offline SasquatchMan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2003, 11:21:45 am »
Jokers, I've heard of saw techs cracking the piston heads on the super-high revving saws when working on them - they apparently need a more gentle touch.  I'm not suggesting that the 346 is a less durable saw - maybe I should modify my first post.  I was just trying to point out that the reason a chev with a 305 lasts so long is that a lot of components are overbuilt, and the engine isn't ever asked to do "maximum output" - they just chug happily along.  (Conversely, If you want to super-tune a 4 cylinder to have 600 hp you can - but you can't expect it to last too long.)

The original question is what makes the 346 lighter and faster?  The answer is still components and tuning.
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Offline Bobcat_pa

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2003, 03:12:55 pm »
Jokers:  Teach me how to read/interpret this "wider power band".
I just assume that two saws with the same HP, the one with more cc's is the one with the wider power band.   What paticular tech specs do you look for ?

Offline jokers

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2003, 06:31:34 pm »
Bobcat

I suppose that in a very general and casual way your assumption is right. When you start considering all of the potential variables between two saw motors that are fairly close in displacement, it probably won`t be a flawless assumption.

The 353 does have a stock peak, or near peak power band which covers a range several hundred rpm wide. Anywhere in this range is going to be nearly as good as it gets, you probably won`t notice much difference in performance anywhere in the span. The 346 has a range of about 150 rpm where it`s at peak if memory serves me, then it drops off fairly quickly from peak which seems to compound itself. The further you drop off peak, the lower the output power gets. You can feel these characteristics as you operate a saw and the same thing can be shown by dyno printouts. Check out Walker`s website for a few dyno printouts, including the one for a 346 that they built for me. You will be surprised when you see the low hp numbers that their dyno printouts show, but keep in mind that they don`t optimize conditions for peak dyno hp the way that the factories do, they simply try to show before and after powercurves for comparative purposes.

Remember, the 346`s rated peak power is at 9,700rpm and the 353`s rated peak is at 9,000 rpm. The 346 is going to cut faster when properly used because the engine is spinning at 700 rpm greater, that`s alot of chain speed and extra cutting going on. Don`t get me wrong though, I still think that the 353 is a great saw and I have recommended it to several people close to me, as well as many others and everyone has been happy so far.

Oh BTW Bobcat, all saws are meant to be run at max throttle or idle and nothing else.

Sasquatchman

The 353 is marginally heavier than the 346 and I`m not sure where that weight comes from when the crank, case, and bearings are the same between these two models. The conrods are similar so I can`t see any real weight difference here, but the jugs are different. The 353 has the externally accessable ports with removable covers and possibly this adds some weight and of course a piston for a larger bore is going to weigh more. Hold one of each of these models in each hand and you won`t notice a difference in weight between them. I hate to admit it, but maybe the 346 has been the beneficiary of some slick marketing which lists a lower weight to give it a slightly improved power to weight ratio.

The difference in power is attributable to the closed loop transfer ports, port timing and duration at the slight expense of tractable power, different carbs, and the ignitions may even be different. I have never checked that aspect but wouldn`t be surprised to find a little more advance on the 346`s ignition.

I don`t mean to put down your ideas Sasquatch, but I haven`t seen any evidence of weakness or frailty in the 346. It`s a great saw and it`s even establishing itself as better than the venerable 026 for ROW clearance, which is a real trial by fire for a high revving saw.

Russ

Offline SasquatchMan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2003, 06:59:48 pm »
Fair enough Jokers... I just pass on what I'm told, and I've been told that the piston heads are a bit more fragile.  However, that does not mean that they are less durable in a running saw - I haven't heard anyone say that a 346xp failed in that way.  Like you say, they're both great saws, and certainly it sounds like the 346xp is the saw of choice for Scandinavian loggers so it can't be anything but great.

I think I wound up sounding like i was down on the 346 by trying to give bobcat a way of looking at the thing - how does power come about in small high revving engines as opposed to bigger slower ones....

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Offline jokers

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2003, 09:47:26 pm »
Hey SasquatchMan

I just recently saw someone posting about using a plastic piston stop instead of the metal one advised for and provided by Husky for the 346, because that person had experienced broken pistons with the metal one. Perhaps this is the basis for your info.I don`t remember who posted it or even where, but I can tell you this from first hand experience, I use the metal one in conjunction with a pneumatic impact hammer and modified chisel to knock the clutches off. No broken pistons yet but I suppose that the first one could be tomorrow.

I also suppose that there could be inherent weakness in passing along what someone else has told you.

Once again I want to state that I am not trying to put down your posts, in fact I have thought many times that you have a sensible perspective. Just trying to fully explain why I don`t share your perspective on this issue.

Russ

Offline SasquatchMan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2003, 09:55:37 am »
 ;D ;D ;D  Hey jokers, I've done enough "real" research in my life that now I just pass along whatever crap I feel like!  

The post you refer to I think was on the Toolshed forum at gardenweb, and you have to take a lot of those with a grain of salt, given that there's guys there running chainsaws with tcw oil (or no oil) etc.

I deal with farmers and hunters and tough guys general, and these are folks who probably don't dump the old gas out of a saw, don't shake the gas before they work, etc and run their saws like hell for 3 days a year, then complain that the thing is screwed up after only 5 years of cutting bones with a dull chain.  It may be that my overall viewpoint on the small huskies is negatively affected by this.  "Oh yeah, I had one a them, but it never ran right and exploded."

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Offline BASIC

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2003, 10:26:53 am »
   I'm learning alot,as usual.Is faster chain speed better?If not,why?Going with the engine analogy,is there a saw that performs like a diesel?Thanks,BASIC.

Offline SasquatchMan

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2003, 10:49:08 am »
Hey BASIC

Chain speed = cutting speed, really, so a really high chain speed makes it so that you cut really fast.  Of course, it requires a lot of power to move a chain fast under load, which is why big saws are better at doing that (I think there's a post on here somewhere where a guy has a husky 372 and claims to have an 8 tooth spur for it - so the chain would REALLY fly)

Faster chain speed also makes for safer cutting, in that a slower moving cutter (on any piece of equipment) is somewhat more likely to dig in and produce some kind of kickback.  (Naturally, a kickback that does occur off a fast saw will be a strong one...)  A really fast chain is more likely to cut lots of thin flakes than a slower chain, if the saws are pushed at the same rate.

As for a diesel saw, well, I guess a guy could buy a really huge saw and run it at half throttle? :-/  Or maybe just put a lot of oil in your mix so it smokes? ;D
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Offline Bobcat_pa

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2003, 10:57:59 am »
Jokers:  I am starting to understand this better.   I was over to the Walker site and printed out the charts for the 346xp & 026.  These are some amazing before-after numbers.  It also visually explains what my hands/arms already sensed about my 260pro--more hp & torque in the lower rpm's as compared to my 353.    

FYI: my new 346xp, with HEATED handles, is now on order at CCD.   After a little hands-on time, I am going to need to correct this narrow power band issue.  

THANKS--bob

Offline jokers

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2003, 11:04:36 am »
Got cha Sasquatch, fair enough.

Basic

Your first question deserves a qualified "yes" answer. Consider that you aren`t making any chips if the teeth aren`t moving over and through a given area, so the more times over and through, the faster the cut. This also relates to why full comp chain cuts faster than skip or semi skip until chip clearance in big, sticky wood becomes a limiting factor. Faster chain speed does lead to increased heat and bar and chain wear although I`ve never seen evidence that a sharp chain was overheated by cutting, and also increased likelyhood that your chain will be dulled by dirt or other unseen contaminants. There are also people who believe that you can move a chain so fast that it doesn`t have time to porpoise effectively but I`ve never seen it on a chain that wasn`t overly tight. That`s my opinion.

Consider unlimited hotsaws as support for my opinion. They get built to maintain in the neighborhood of 15,000 engine rpms in the cut with huge sprockets driving the chains to astronomical speeds. You can`t say that they aren`t efficient cutters. One downside here is that the chain can get moving so fast that it will self destruct if the throttle is held pegged out of the cut but I`ve never seen  a stock saw be able to do anything like that, not that anything is impossible.

There actually were diesel chainsaws made by Jonsered and maybe others, in the 50`s I believe. Today, high engine/chain speed has been proven to be more effective so consequently the only way to get real grunt from the powerhead is to add significant displacement. This is the realm of 088s and 3120s.

Russ

Offline CWS

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2003, 11:35:25 am »
Bobcat, I ordered my 346XPG from CCD also, and sent it up to Walker's. If you do it, you won't regret it.

Scott

Offline BASIC

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Re: Husky 353 vs 346xp
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2003, 03:10:22 pm »
  Thankyou for answering my questions.If a saw should alway be run at full throtle why are some people(me included)concerned about a broad power band?What are the limitations of a small high rpm saw,the size and type of the wood,if so why?I think part of my problems  lie in that I've been driving diesel pick-ups so long,that I'm trying to equate saw performance to truck performance.I'm sorry for what I'm sure are basic questions but I'm trying to learn as much as posible.Thankyou all again,BASIC.