iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Portage and Main Optimizer 250 Good,Bad, or just O.K.

Started by Local4Fitter, April 19, 2011, 01:42:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Local4Fitter

Hey everybody, I'm new to the forum but have been reading it for a couple weeks now. Its great, lots of info. I'm currently looking at investing in a OWB. To be specific a Portage and Main Optimizer 250. I live in Massachusetts and it is one of the few OWB's on the list that we can use here since 2008. I went to look at one running at the dealers house and it seems to be very well built (like a tank). I currently heat a 2500 sq ft. home with oil fired forced hot water base board. The house is 2x6 construction built in 1996. I will be building a 1200 sq ft. garage soon and will also heat that (if I buy a OWB). Last year I burned about 1000 gals. of oil @ 2.80-3.25 per gal. This year oil is already at $4.00. I have been clearing an area for my garage and have already have about 16 cord stacked in log length. I figure this is free heat for 2 winters ($8,000 saved in oil ) What I am really looking for is somebody that runs a Portage and Main Optimizer 250 and have you had problems with it. I dont see any complaints about them on forums that I have read, not sure if this is because they are good units or if its because there aren't many out there being used. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Local4Fitter

An acquaintance of mine also offered to sell me his  2 year old E-2300 ( which is a replacement from the factory for his first E-2300). He is asking $8500. I started to look online researching them and found this forum. FF and the $8500 he wants for a  2 year old OWB that seems destined for early failure made up my mind on that deal. The P&M even at $10500 seems like the best choice for me.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

karlk


Local4Fitter

Hey Karlk, How many sq ft. are you heating? How much wood do you go through? What do you do for regular and yearly maintenance? Thanks for the input.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

karlk

Im heating 3400sqft of that 700sqft is garage with 10ft ceilings I keep everything at 75 deg.I went thru 9 cord from oct to now. I also heat my hot water. Every 2 weeks I brush out the tubes. No other maintenance.  I know I could cut down on wood but wife likes warm house and fresh air so sooner than turn down the temp she leaves windows open.There is no way I could do that with oil!

thecfarm

Local4Fitter,welcome to the forum. If you do get one and want to heat your hot water make sure you put a shutoff in your lines so no water is going through your baseboard. I just used 180K heat exchangers for my house. Maybe some tax credits out there for you too. Probaly should have a wood shed too. Split and stack your wood early summer and put it in your wood shed to dry.Give your OWB placement and your woodshed some thought,to make it easier to move 8 cord of wood. When you get it,you wished you would of got it sooner.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Local4Fitter

Thanks for the info guys. Hopefully I can talk wife into doing this. She's afraid of putting all this $$ out there. She would rather pay a little more for oil gradually than drop the whole nut on OWB,Woodshed,HX,Piping. I am probably looking to spend $15k right away. Today oil is at $4.00 per gallon and probably rising, not sure if it will come down at all. The boiler could pay itself off in 2 1/2 years burning the wood I already have. After that I could buy a grapple load per year at $1,000 and still be saving $3,000 a year over oil. Its definately more work for me, but the excercise and oil independence would give me piece of mind.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Dean186

Quote from: Local4Fitter on April 20, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Thanks for the info guys. Hopefully I can talk wife into doing this. She's afraid of putting all this $$ out there. She would rather pay a little more for oil gradually than drop the whole nut on OWB,Woodshed,HX,Piping. I am probably looking to spend $15k right away. Today oil is at $4.00 per gallon and probably rising, not sure if it will come down at all. The boiler could pay itself off in 2 1/2 years burning the wood I already have. After that I could buy a grapple load per year at $1,000 and still be saving $3,000 a year over oil. Its definately more work for me, but the excercise and oil independence would give me piece of mind.

Your thoughts and numbers sound normal to me.  We are at the two year mark with ours and haven't looked back.

Local4Fitter

Yes the boiler would pay for itself in 2-3 years then the wood shed and misc. (log splitter,pex tube) would be paid in the next year. Also my job as a pipefitter isn't a steady gig. Sometimes I will get a good run of 2 years of steady work and then get laid off for a month or two. When I am not doing side work I will have plenty of time to cut wood. Plenty of hardwoods in my area. Just driving around I see alot of dead trees leaning just waiting to be removed. I am sure if I asked the owners they would allow me to take them. As of yet I haven't seen any gallon jugs of heating oil on the side of the road. :D
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

rondojod

In the videos on the 250 I see only two take offs. I heat three buildings. Does the 350 come with more than two take offs?

boilerman101

First off, I am an E2400 owner for the last 2 winters. Am not familiar with the Portage & Main furnace, but I am an anal researcher whenever I make any major purchase. Here are my research findings.  Again, I may be slightly biased because I am an E2400 owner, but here are my comparisons..I did my research at the Portage & Main website and the EPA approved outdoor wood furnace site http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html . Looks like a Canadian company, states they have been in business for 30 years, but if that's so, why have I never heard of them before or have they been just a very small company? Looks like a small firebox door to load through. Lots of doors and compartements for cleanout areas all over on it. They also list that there are 28 tubes with turbulators to clean every 2 weeks or so? I have just 2 large tubes that don't seem to catch any ash. Just take ash out of lower reaction chamber every 4 weeks or so. Does not look like a lot of insulation and many of those cleanout hatches don't seem to be insulated. A major reason I purchased the E Classic was for the urethane insulation. What's up with the video showing him heating up a chunk of metal in the lower chamber then throwing it into a kettle of water? Are they making soup? Should be healthy - get your daily requirement of iron :D  I may have to try that sometime. I then went to the EPA website I listed above...Portage & Main was not listed, but under Piney Manufacturing Optimizer 250 that link takes you to the Portage & Main website. This furnace was not listed on the chart back when I purchased my furnace. The chart shows the Optimizer 250 8 hour btu rating is just 78,252 btu while the E2400 is listed at 186,453 btu and the chart also shows the E2400 burns almost twice as clean which I think would mean it would then burn more efficiently as well. Sorry, this is sounding like I'm slamming, but this is the straight up info I found. Bottom line, I would still certainly purchase my E2400 over the Portage & Main furnace, because of its larger output capabilities, larger loading door, urethane insulation and what should be less maintenence cleaning areas. FYI- I am easily heating 2,350 sq ft at temps to -20 and getting a 24 hour burn time if I fill it full. I find cleaning and maintenence to be fairly easy and minimal. karlk I am surprised you can heat 4,100 sq feet of house and garage with just a 78,000 btu furnace. That seems like it would be quite a feat for even an indoor propane or oil furnace of that size. Are those building urethane insulated? I don't think I could heat my 2,350 square feet with just 78,000 btu. - My wife is satisfied keeping the house at just72 degrees 8)


Local4Fitter

I looked on the EPA link and your right boilerman the btu's seem low don't know if its a typo or not. P&M's website doesn't state btu's over an 8 hour period. It does give btu's/hr 300,000. I don't own an OWB yet but am researching them for a future purchase. The way I found this forum is by searching CB E 2300 because an acquaintance of mine was selling his 2300 for $8500 and when I started reading about all the problems people were having with them it scared me away from them. Hopefully they solved the problems with the E 2400. My buddy has a Central boiler conventional OWB that he really likes just seems they put their gasifiers to market before all the bugs were figured out. As far as insulation goes I have read good and bad about the urethane. Although you get a nice seal from it being sprayed on I read that you can get condensation between the jacket and insulation resulting in corrosion and if you develop a leak you need to chip it off to find it. Condensation probably wouldn't occur if you ran the boiler 365 days. I really don't know why that dealer was heating that piece of tube steel. I guess he was showing how hot the reaction chamber will get, but you could do that in any gassifier. I really can't say which stove requires less maintenance but I like the fact that you have access to the entire HX on the P&M. I wish I could run them all side by side and then decide. Until then I will have to just keep reading and when I do come to a decision I will tell everyone that its the best OWB I have ever owned. They don't need to know it's the only one.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Local4Fitter

Hey Boilerman, I think I will try to contact a CB dealer near me and see if he has a 2400 up and running that I can look at. The more info I have the easier my decision will be. Thanks
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

karlk

I looked at the 2400 before I bought the portage & main, I would rather clean the tubes than replace the so called wear items . Also with the P&M there is no bridging problem so no need for rods hanging down.As far as the door size its plenty big enough unless you need to get in there to replace wear items.Im not bashing CB just straight up info.

Local4Fitter

Thanks Karl, I looked at a E-2300 for sale and the guy explained how he scrapes the corners where creosote will build up and the daily airhole cleaning he does. Then he showed me how he has to hang a small piece of coat hanger to keep the air intake open a bit so the fire doesn't go out. I am sure every OWB has its own learning curve and little tricks to make it run better. Now the only P&M I have seen running was at the dealers house which looked to be about 1800 sf. and then his 450 sf. uninsulated garage with Modine heater,not alot to heat. I told him what I had ( 2300sf. house, 1200 sf.garage in future. most likely in floor radiant) he said no problem. He showed me how he cleans the HX once a week sliding out the turbulators and run a brush through and then he pulls about quart of ash out of the reaction area. All the doors to access these were hinged with a single handle and were easy to open. Keep in mind that he is trying to sell me one. Is it all that simple or is there more to it? The P&M website says the Optimizer 250 will heat 5,000 sf. but that is kind of vague. I realize it all depends on how well the building is insulated and weather conditions. The website also gives a btu output of 300,000/hr. how does that relate to the 78,000 btu/ 8hr. on on the epa website on boilermans post? I am still leaning toward the P&M looks to be built better and easier to run and maintain. What are the rods that hang down in the 2400 haven't seen these. Do they push down on the wood fuel to prevent bridging? Extra weight from above or are they mechanical. Sounds like they might get in the way. How do you load wood with that stuff in the way?
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Local4Fitter

Just looked at the CB website. The max output of the 2400 is 260,480 btu/hr. P&M is 300,000 btu/hr. The big difference is when you look at the 8 hr. rating between the two. Is this because the 2400 has a larger water capacity?
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Dean186

Quote from: Local4Fitter on April 22, 2011, 09:11:09 AM
Just looked at the CB website. The max output of the 2400 is 260,480 btu/hr. P&M is 300,000 btu/hr. The big difference is when you look at the 8 hr. rating between the two. Is this because the 2400 has a larger water capacity?

I would expect it has to do with the size of the firebox.

Dean186

Quote from: Local4Fitter on April 22, 2011, 09:02:05 AM
What are the rods that hang down in the 2400 haven't seen these. Do they push down on the wood fuel to prevent bridging? Extra weight from above or are they mechanical. Sounds like they might get in the way. How do you load wood with that stuff in the way?

I believe the rods are there to keep the wood off the sides and thus blocking air flow.  They may also help with bridging.  

I do not have a problem with bridging in my stove and the rods do not get in the way.

Here is a photo of the rods in my E-Classic 1400 when it was new.  Note:  The wide angle lens creates distortion making the side walls of the furnace appear slanted.  The walls are vertical. I didn't take the time to remove the lens distortion.


Local4Fitter

1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Local4Fitter

Dean, if it is the difference in firebox size then why wouldn't the E-2400 have a higher btu/hr. rating than the Optimizer 250?
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

boilerman101

Dean, my E2400 has the same sidewall rods as your E1400 picuture. They do seem to keep the wood dropping down and not blocking the air flow holes. Like you, I have had no problems with the wood hanging up and not dropping down. I don't think the E2300's had these. They also swing back and forth on their hangers when I scrape the creosote off the sidewalls so they really don't get in the way. I was able to remove them for a good end of season cleaning after my 1st years use. I don't have the opening and grates in the bottom of my firebox like yours though, instead I have a long slot in the firebox refractors and a long tube that sits over the top of it, with holes in the bottom of it that shoot air down into the lower chamber. Seems to work good for me and has never clogged up. The EPA 8 hour rating thing was a good question. I called my dealer to ask exactly what it was as it got me wondering as well. He explained it as the highest amount of btu output that could be maintained constantly during a steady heat draw over an 8 hour period on a single load of wood.(whew) He said this number would be similiar to the btu ratings given to indoor boilers and heating devices for comparison. So with that said, Dean's theory may be right...Let's try some math: The firebox dimensions listed on the PM Optimizer 250 are 28"Wx30"Hx30"L=25,200 cubic inches or 14.58 cu. feet if it was rectangle. PM site says it only is 11 cu feet so they must lose 3.58 cu ft due to the round top. Water capacity 240 gallons.  CB lists the E2400 firebox dimensions at 36"Lx43.5"Hx26"W=40,716 cubic inches or 23.56 cu feet. The box is rectangle. Water capacity 340 gallons. Considering how the 8 hr btu rating is calculated, perhaps since the E2400 firebox is 12.5 cu ft larger, holding more wood and 100 gallons more water, that would explaind the higher 186,000 btu 8 hr rating on the CB unit while the PM unit can only hold a 78,000 btu draw over that period...As for the "Maximum Output Question", my best guess would be that a smaller firebox and water jacket can create a hotter burn and transfer, but only for a short period of time.  Sorry-wrote a novel again. :-[

karlk

Local4fitter  thats all there is to it, just brush out the tubes like you were shown. As far as the heat output im heating 3400 sqft totol that includes the garage,I load 2 times a day no matter how cold it is. I fill it about 1/2 way each time. My home is 10 years old 2x6 walls with batt insulation. The garage is 2x4 walls with batt insulation. I have hot water base board heat. I did a heat loss and it came to 36000 btu per hour, well under what this boiler will provide. Hope this helps.

Local4Fitter

Thanks Karl, sounds like you could heat a house twice that size according to your heat loss.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Local4Fitter

I agree with your math Boilerman and I see why the 2400 has a higher 8hr. btu rating, but I'm not so sure that a smaller firebox like on the P&M will burn hotter than a larger firebox. Maybe its the HX design that gives the P&M the higher max btu/hr.rating and the fact that it has a smaller firebox than the 2400 that gives the P&M a lower 8 hr. rating.
1974 John Deere 510, Wood fired pizza oven,2005 Dodge/Cummins,Firearms for all occasions.

Holmes

 Hi  It could be that the P&M  burns wood more efficiently than the Central. I have not seen any charts on it but my guess is the P&M burns around 10 to 15% more efficient than other boilers. It appears the boiler gets almost all of the available btu's into the water from the burning wood.  Holmes
Think like a farmer.

Thank You Sponsors!