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What is this?

Started by Furby, December 24, 2003, 03:45:59 PM

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Furby

Does anyone know what this is or what they may have used it for?


Yeah, I know it looks like a hole in the wall.  ::)
Some background info. My house was built in 1801 (so I'm told), and is timber framed. It was the original homestead of the area. I belive the basement was added many years after the house was built and this wall is the original basement wall. At some point many years after the basement was put in, this pipe was placed going into the basement. The pipe measures about 11.5' long and is 30" in dia. The pipe is in two sections riveted together and each section has two rows of rivets running it's length at a joint. There is also an end cap riveted in place.
The previous owners had someone who knew a lot about the underground railroad come out to take a look. They could not find any evidence to prove or disprove that it was used for that purpose. The underground railroad was pretty active in this area and because there is a creek about 300 - 400 yards out, they belive that it may indeed have been used or ment to have been used for that purpose.

The thought flew into my head recently to post this on The Forum to see if anyone had any thoughts on it. I've come up with many possible resons for the pipe, but thought you all might throw some more my way. When I bought the house the pipe was partly filled with stone, dirt, and bricks. My brother crawled in and pulled out about half, but I haven't made time to remove the rest.  ::)

Note:
I may be removing the pipe next summer if I do end up rebuilding the back of the house.

pasbuild


  Older homes in my neck of the woods had coal/wood schutes.
The fuel could be offloaded from the truck to the basement without getting out of the truck.
If it can't be nailed or glued then screw it

Wes

 How high off the floor is the bottom of the pipe?

 What is near the pipe inside? like,cement pad,over head hatch, window, chimney,brackets,pipes,old fireplace, bin,ect.
 
 What is near the pipe outside?is it exposed or underground?
and is it horizontal or pitched?

 I know its alot of questions, Im just trying to make a mental picture of the surroundings.

Furby

Yeah I guess I forgot that in my description.  ::)

No problem about the ?'s.

At some point in time, my best guess is late 40's early 50's, someone got trigger happy with concrete. I have a massive patio out of concrete (as well as concrete all over the yard), the pipe is about 6 -10" (maybe less) under the patio and dead ends in the middle of the patio. the area around the house is all backfill and would leave the pipe atleast partly above grade (without fill and concrete). The pipe is about 8 - 12" above the basement floor and is horizontal. The left side of the pic is the corner of the basement.
There is nothing to indicate that it was used for coal storage.
There is a piece of "funny looking"  (was poured at a seperate time as floor) concrete near the pipe inside the basement, but it doesn't look like any of the coal strorage areas, bins, chutes, or furnace areas I've ever seen.
The woodchuck that was living under the basement steps (outside steps, Michigan basement  ;D ) this pass summer dug up some coal, but that was at the far back corner of the house.

If I could figure out when the concrete in the patio was laid, I might have a better idea of how old the pipe is.

This house has been added onto many times over the years, with add ons on add ons. At one time it was a barber shop, also a funeral home. The side yard once held a blacksmith's shop. I can't remember what else, but there was more.
I can get some more pics if it'll help.

AtLast

Thats AWSUME!!...and well worth the time investigating......keep us posted please

rebocardo

The length and the width of the pipe sure sounds like a coal shute to me, especially running to the basement.

Since the house was built in 1801, it probably had a dirt floor with fieldstone walls.The only other thing I can think it might be was a shute for pouring a concrete slab in the basement and when they were done, they riveted the end shut. If they poured concrete through it, it will be dried within the cracks and rivets.


Bibbyman

I've been thinking about the mystery tube...

Could it have been a tank for storing rainwater collected from the roof gutters?  Most likely in 1800, there wasn't a pressurized water system in the house.  Would have worked well to burry an old tank just under the ground where it wouldn't freeze and then gravity drain it into wash tubs and such in the basement for washing cloths, baths, etc.  I bet any 1800's wife would be real happy with such a convenience in the home.

On the same track,  could it of been for storing coal oil or some other fuel of the day?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Wes

 Was there a cover over the pipe on the inside of the basement? It looks like theres a square shadow on the wall around the pipe.
 If so was it hidden, sealed, fastened,or loose and what was it made of ? Also is there any evidence of any smaller pipes or like attached ?

Sawyerfortyish

I'll take a wild guess at this. A Funeral home hmm. Maybe it's a porthole to someplace you really don't want to goMy advice if it's capped off or sealed don't open it. By the way you haven't seen any strange happenings have you?


Furby

Last night as I tried to go to sleep I decided to do a little digging in the morning. Sooooo, today I went down and pulled all of the rock/dirt out of the pipe. The pic is not great but you can see that one section has rivets on one side and the other section has rivets on the other side.

I think I need a light at the end of the tunnel!  ;D ::)
I noticed that the section closest to the basement was shorter then the other section. The long section is 6' and the short one is 5', and the end cap is about 6". Now I'm thinking that the short section may have stuck out into the basement 1' or so. There also seems to have been a thicker ring of metal on the inside of the pipe where it goes through the wall. Just before I got the last of the stuff out, I noticed something at the very end. As soon as I got back to it, the thought that it may indeed have been an oil tank passed through my mind. This is what is at the top at the end. There is no way to fill the tank, unless it did stick out into the basement.

Does this look familiar to anyone? If it doesn't tell us what the pipe was used for at the house, it may tell us what the pipe was, before it was put into the house.
I can't really belive that an oil tank would be riveted, but what do I know? I did take some better measurements and here they are: the bottom of the pipe is 12" off of the basement floor, the left side of the pipe is 18" from the inside corner of the basement, and as best as I can measure wiout busting through the concrete, the pipe is 23" under the concrete. With the patio being raised above the rest of the yard, that leaves the top of the pipe about at grade, before the patio was raised. While I didn't check with a level, it looks really close to being level. No slope at all.

I did take a closer look at what I thought was an old window. It was either a coal chute or stairs, maybe even both over the years. The wall just below this "window" is discolored just a little, like other coal chutes I've seen.  I also looked for the dates that were parts of the patio. I found 5 dates with initials. 4 are in the same piece, 3 seem to be people that lived there and 1 I think was the person or company that poured the concrete as it looks like it was made with a stamp. These 4 are all dated 1960 and are in a very large set of steps at the far end of the patio. I found 1 more that was very hard to read as it was in a high traffic area. It was made by someone in the same family but is very different from the other dates. I can't read the 4th # in the date, but it may be 1960 or 1940. This area is a seperate pour from the area the pipe is under, but I can't find any dates on those pieces.

I guess the thing with all of this is, I just don't know why the pipe is so long and capped. That's what has stopped a lot of my theories. The oil tank idea is making the most sense at this point.


Furby

Ok, I see in the time it took me to get this last post put together, there were some more ?'s.

The wall was "fixed" during instalation of the pipe. The wall is limestone, and to put something like this in, they just knocked a section out, put the pipe in, and rebuild the wall. I can't tell if they tried to hide the pipe. The pipe was open when I bought the house. There is one 3/4" gal. pipe sticking out of the wall about 2 or 3' off to the side of the big pipe. There is no place in the big pipe for the smaller pipe to tie in.
 
Sawyer 40, I have to agree with that thought, but I don't think it goes "there".  ;D I hope not anyways.  :-/ ::) ???       :o
As for strange things, well yes there have been a few. I've always had strange things happening around me though, so I don't know if any of it has to do with the house.  ;)  Ever see Rose Red? I like that movie.  ;D
 ;D

etat

I have a few questions.  Doesn't mean it'll help with an answer, but questions anyway.  Can you tell if the rivets were machine made and riveted, or, blacksmith made and hand riveted.  What about the metal itself, if it is wrought iron plate, that would mean that it would probably be pre 1930's or so.  That's about the time when wrought iron started being widely replaced with cold rolled steel as technology started widely stepping in in the steel industry.  Before the 20's almost all steel was wrought iron.  Wrought iron has a much higher carbon content than cold rolled steel making it more resistance to rust. Wrought iron was extremely labor intensive to make, and everyone in the steel industry was looking for a better, faster, and more economical way to form steel..  That might be a clue.  It will surface rust but is less likely to rust through.  Even this might not tell you anything if it is a salvaged piece from earlier days. But you can almost bet that if it is cold rolled steel plate it was made after 1920 or so. If there were a blacksmith in the area he could probably help determine the type of steel, thus helping to date it.  I know nothing about coal chutes, oil chutes or anything of this nature, but I would consider it odd that your's would be unique to everybody else's.  
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Norm

I wonder if it wasn't used for bringing in water to your house like Bibby suggested. Do you have any cisterns in the basement or around the outside next to where the roof downspouts would be? The size of the pipe puzzles me as it is so big. Most coal chutes where an opening to the basement that was made into a window after places converted over to oil. Oil pipes aren't that big and I would guess that as old as your house is they used wood then coal then oil for heat. Ask around and see if any of the older houses in your neighborhood have anything similar.

I like a good mystery story. ;)

redpowerd

this is intresting, our farmhouse was built in the 1820s and has a chute like that running into a large 18' or so round room, it is not made of steel, but of rocks and mortar, and has a very slight slope. we beleive at one time it ran into the carrage house, witch was attached, but 20 or so feet away. it may have run farther, to the outside, but we have found no evidence of such, yet.  so far we have dismissed it as a cistern.

if that was a coal chute, would those rivets show signs of wear? i dont handle much coal ;D
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

pappy

A funeral home , hum mm could it have been used to store stiffs ?? they most likely didn't have refrigeration in those days.
"And if we live, we shall go again, for the enchantment which falls upon those who have gone into the woodland is never broken."

"Down the Allagash."  by; Henry Withee

Don P

The laundry next to where I'm working has a riveted tank that was used for water storage. Its much larger adout 8' Dia and 10' long. The spring that comes out of "canoe hollow" (supposedly the indians made canoes up there) fed the tank from which the laundry drew water.  I've also seen metal septic tanks?

Wes

Furby, I think Dons got it, and a fiew others touched on it

After you said that the pipe may have been cut off at the basement wall, it made sence.

It may be a water storage/pressure tank.

 Some water systems were set up like that, a steel tank burried under ground with the end sticking through the wall of a pit,chamber or building. All or most of the plumbing would have been attached to the exposed end.

The water is piped in from the well, about 3/4 full,then pressureised by an air pump to supply the house.Ive worked on some systems like that only larger.

  


Furby

Ok, sorry to take so long to get back to this.
After reading the last handfull of posts a few times I'm beginning to think that it may indeed have been a water tank. I just can't find anything to prove anything.  :-/

Ck, Remember that I'm looking at the rivets from the inside of the pipe so I don't know what the outside of the rivets look like. The inside of the rivets are somewhat cone shaped with a small dimple just off to one side. Almost as if they had been struck just of center. I don't know the difference between machine and hand riveted. One ? I haven't be able to get out of my head is, if this was a sealed pipe, how would you rivet the last of the rivets? ??? At one time there was a blacksmith's shop in the side yard and I'm leaning towards this pipe coming from there. As of yet I haven't been able to date the blacksmith's shop, but I'm working on it. I don't have a blacksmith around here, that I know of, but in the summer there is one up at the lake, maybe I can talk to him this summer. When I was cleaning out the pipe, the far end had some big pieces of rust/ metal coming loose. I think the whole inside of the pipe may have fallen in already and I just have an outer skin now. I did save a few pieces of the rust and they are black metal on the back side. Does this tell you anything?

I still would like to find out what the little gizmo is at the far end at the top. I thought about taking a grinder and cutting off the two rivet heads but I'm not sure that I'll be able to get this thing loose from the rest of the pipe or that it'll come inside the pipe. I'm not real comfortable working in this thing without someone around. It's pretty solid, but with 2' of dirt and concrete over me, being 10' or more into the pipe just doesn't feel very good.

Norm, As of now I've only been able to find one thing that may have been a cistern. It's now a no longer used but still very full septic tank. Anybody have any idea of what to do with about a 10' dia by 4' deep tank of *stuff? ???  :-/ It's to stiff to have pumed but to close to the house to leave. I belive this may have been an old cistern as it's abot 10' around, 8' deep, and built totally out of brick.

Termite, I belive they used the icehouse to store stiffs, but that thought has crossed my mind. It's rather hard to get to the pipe though.

Redpowerd, I think I  need to hear more about your place. How big around is this chute? How far under ground is the chute? What is this 18' round room? Is it above ground, made out of wood or stone?  How tall is this room?

Wes, what date would you give a pressurized system such as you have described?

As I can't find any way of proving the reson for this pipe , I am going to keep trying to find out more info. If anyone has anymore suggestions, please feel free to let me know. Those of you who have made suggestions, THANK YOU! You have given me a lot to think about and have set in motion ?'s to ask as well as things to keep in mind when some odd bit of info pops up.

Norm

Furby it sounds like what you found that is made out of red bricks is a septic tank. We had one just like what you described on a farm that we lived as a kid. Cisterns were for catching rain water and the water used for most everything but drinking. They are a real hazard and most get covered up a long time ago. They are usually in the basement our right next to the house near the downspouts. There was an old farmhouse next to where we built our house. When we finally tore it down we found two around the foundation and one in the basement. All but one had been filled in and covered with cement. Old houses like yours are sure neat with all the history and such.

Wes

  Furby,

 Not sure of a date,but it would have had to have been installed after the electricty was ran to your house,You would have to find out when it was first available in your area.

 Wes

Furby

Norm,
The septic tank is made out of yellow bricks. I had a friend come over to find my old privies. He didn't seem to think it was made as a septic tank due to the fact that they usually used red brick and the yellow was harder to find around here. Also the clay pipe that comes out from the tank was not built into the tank, rather it was added later.

Wes,
Thanks! I'll add that to my list of ?'s. I'm hoping to get into the town records sometime soon.

Norm

Yellow bricks are less porous if I remember right. I keep forgetting how old your place is. Our cisterns were made out of red brick but buttered with cement to keep them water tight.

Neat place you got there. :)

Wes

 Furby,

 Heres a fiew more thoughts,

 I was thinking about that thing attched to the top of your tank, does it have some tipe of ceramic,glass,or like material on it? If so it could be whats left of an anode, I think they were used to slow down the corrosive action in the tank.

 Also my house was built in 55 and it has a septic and a dry well, all the gray water goes into the dry well,bath water,dish water,laundry,ect.all those powdered soaps dont breakdown like liquid. Mine cloged up a fiew years ago,when I opened it up it was fillid to the top with a heavy greay paste.It took alot of backflushing with a pumper truck and a hose to empty it out,even the ground around it for about a foot was saturated with this goop.This could be what you have there.

 Wes

redpowerd

huh?
the septic tank we jus demolished(fun fun)
looked jus like the round room
the same thing, all rock n clay
worked REAL well for 160+ yrs
we still wonder how the water was stored and how it was handled, theres no evidence of tanks or old pipes.
im not positive that old rock tank was originally built for a septic,  but it worked for so long, so, eh?
NO FARMERS -- NO FOOD
northern adirondak yankee farmer

Furby

Norm,
"Neat" is one word to use, and I can think of a few others that I can't use on The Forum.  ;D
One more "neat" fact that I don't think I've mentioned before. On the day I went to close on the house, we were all standing in the waiting room of the title office and they had a T.V. on. It's really strange to be all thinking about buying your first house and all, and then the President comes on the T.V. and asked for a moment of silence. Really puts things in it's place.                    

 I closed on the house the morning of 9/11. :o

Wes,
That's it! I was wondering what the glass thingy was. So would it have had a couple of wires or something on the outside? It's starting to sound like you have this thing figured out.
The septic tank has that very color of sludge under a harder top layer. REALLY smells BAD when you brake through the crust! I can't have the tank backflushed and pumped out. The wall of the tank is broken where the clay pipe comes in and the sludge is just a few inches under the opening. Also the tank wall is just about up against my chimney which is up against the basement wall. When I take out the basement walls, I'm afraid of the tank bursting and having a REAL mess across my new basement floor.   :o  :-/

Redpowerd,
Huh? Now you lost me!    ::)
What did you do with the contents, or dare I ask ??? ??? ???
 :D :D :D

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