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identifying old chestnut lumber

Started by west penn, April 07, 2011, 09:32:50 PM

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west penn

 If anyone could help I would appreciate it. I'm getting ready to dry 2000 ft of resawn 8/4 lumber for a guy who claims it is wormy chestnut. It is somewhat wormy but I'm thinking most of it is oak.I could be wrong but I've very seldom seen chestnut used for floor joists or rafters.Their are no medular rays visible which is his main claim that it is indeed chestnut. He paid some serious money for this stuff. Does anyone have the sure fire method of determining what it is. Could you still go by weight considering it is at least 70 0r 80 yrs. old? If so where can I find the weight of chestnut?

Ironwood

I am DANG near perfect at identifying Chestnut, but to describe it is difficult. The ONLY thing that can sometimes fool me is OLD wormy oak, but that is in the rough and darkened from age (usually roof decking). Density can help separate the two for sure. Also, chestnut is naturally "brash" and splintering easily, oak not some much unless rotting or decayed from heat. Some VERY old oak can be surprisingly LIGHT, but that is RARE. If you are indeed in western Pa (as your name states) come by I ca ncrash course train you in person (best method). Certainly NO signs of medullary rays is a good start and shows you have what it takes, there is just ALOT of sublties to it. I have tons of it around these parts, both timbers and decking, and even more rare NON wormy.

Ironwood 
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SwampDonkey

Sounds plausible west penn if you can't see them rays by eye. But it could also be aged and rough enough that you may not see finer rays like in white ash or black ash. We had one fellow reclaiming timbers that he thought was chestnut, but was black ash instead. ;)

Some other features is very large early wood pores in several rows, late wood pores chained in flame pattern with white between the pattern (white ash is usually limited to 2, sometimes 3 rows of pores but often with tylosis, smaller solitary pores in late wood , very faint rays, wood lustrous when planed), no odor if you happen to make a fresh cut (removing sassafras from the equation). If not a yellowish tinge to the heartwood, black locust is removed from the possibilities. White oak has tylosis in the pores and large rays. Red oak has very visible rays as well.

These tree species are all grouped pretty close in the identification keys.

Any end grain photos with the macro setting on your camera?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Pictures, please. Like SD said, clear, closeup photos of smoothly cut end grain are the most helpful. Using density as your guide might be helpful in separating it from oak, but will not confirm chestnut as there are many other woods that are as dense as chestnut.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

west penn

  Thanks for the replies. I got a chance today to compare some end cuts from known chestnut with what I am drying and I think I'll have to agree that it is indeed chestnut.  No visible rays even with a magnifying glass. Large early wood pores,splits easy--- and the customer says it's chestnut.  Close enough for me!
   Ironwood, thanks for the invite. I would like to take you up on that crash course sometime.Don't know where you are located, I'm near the pymatuning ---   conneaut lake area
   Thanks again for the info.

just_sawing

I am now in the same situation but this is my cabin. This is not Oak it is lighter be far. 

 

I have Chestnut in my Home and I think it is also but the grain on this is smoother than I expected.
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just_sawing

You can follow me at
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SwampDonkey

If you see several rows of early wood pores like the oaks, but no wide rays, then it could well be. Only thing close would be ash because the rays are so fine, but only a couple rows of pores and ash (white) is lustrous when planed. The photos are hard to distinguish anything.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

just_sawing

Here are better quality photos
This wood appears soft light and has a sheen when light contacts it. 

 



 
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SwampDonkey

I doubt anything soft and light is going to be chestnut, you sure it's not hemlock or red spruce? Spruce has a luster and fine textured.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thehardway

Just sawing,

Doesn't look anything like the Chestnut I have encountered. It almost looks like cherry to me.
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Weekend_Sawyer

First thing I thought was cherry but I'm just guessing!
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SwampDonkey

By the looks of that rough (soft) looking texture where the rings stand out in that end grain picture I'm inclined to lean on red spruce. Aged spruce has a pinkish hue. Cherry is not soft or light, none that I have anyway. Lighter than maple or oak yes, but define light. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thehardway

Something else just popped into my mind, there were many regions where "Ozark Chinquapin",(Castanea Ozarkensis) was referred to as Chestnut or as Chinkapin.  It had a bit softer grain and is different from American Chestnut (C. Dentata)  maybe you have some of this?  It is a variant of  (C. Pumilia) known as the allegheny dwarf chestnut.  Both yielded tasty chestnut like nuts though slightly different from those of the American chestnut.  Tenesssee is close to the  range of this tree.

Asian Chestnut has a softer grain as well, more like cherry.

The sapwood of cherry can be very light in color and soft and has a sheen when planed, it can have a pinkish hue or almost a creamy yellow/brown color.

The small birdseye knots in the wood don't look right for chestnut or oak and look more like cherry, poplar or beech.

Red Spruce is a possibility but  it would be very light in weight as well as color.  Much lighter weight than Chestnut or yellow pine. or cherry.  Very close to Basswood in weight which is so light it would almost seem conspicuous.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

SwampDonkey

Possibly, but very few woods have lustre like ash and spruce.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: just_sawing on February 20, 2014, 08:16:32 AM
Here are better quality photos
This wood appears soft light and has a sheen when light contacts it. 

 



 

That ain't chestnut. Chestnut is ring-porous, like oak, without the large medullary rays. It most closely resembles ash, but is somewhat lighter in weight.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Peter Drouin

Looking at the end of a fresh cut the [ring-porous] I can't remember the right name for it. But if you look the red oak there round  and the chestnut is tear shape.
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Dodgy Loner

It's so easy to tell oak apart from chestnut by the size of the rays, I don't know why any other method would be necessary.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Larry

Quote from: Thehardway on February 20, 2014, 10:56:49 AM
Something else just popped into my mind, there were many regions where "Ozark Chinquapin",(Castanea Ozarkensis) was referred to as Chestnut or as Chinkapin. 

There is an on going effort here to restore ozark chinquapin similar to chestnut.  One of the local sawmills has both chinquapin and chestnut boards displayed that they sawed years ago.  I can't tell the difference.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

SwampDonkey

If your going to use the pores to ID chestnut, I would be more inclined to use it to separate from ash, than oak. Because ash has very minute rays (barely seen by eye). If you can easily see rays, like Dodgy suggested, you've just eliminated chestnut.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

5quarter

Agree with what others have said...not chestnut. Although there was a time when Chestnut was used for practically everything, so it is not unusual to find it both in construction and furniture making. Many people will mistake a Chestnut dresser for ash, or more often Oak. its been gone so long now, that many people have forgotten even what it looks like. If you live east of the Mississippi, and you see an old building that looks as good as the day it was put up, there's a good chance that it was built with A. Chestnut.  ;)
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SwampDonkey

Around here a lot of old furniture is made from ash. It was all covered up with them old finishes so you didn't really know. Many would guess oak. Then in the 1980's furniture stripping of old pieces was the going thing around here and revealed the wood for the first time since the piece was built. I have a cupboard here that was all ash, except one drawer face that was maple. There are some turned spiral columns on it that were also ash. The table that goes with it is maple. ;D A spinning wheel I have is maple, but the wheel was oak, also has the makers mark stamped on the maple.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

36 coupe

I have  an American Chestnut growing in my front yard.Planted 2 about 30 years ago.One of them didnt make it.Chestnut is a very lightweight wood, dark colored.The are some old chestnut fence rails and posts on my place.I took a short piece and ripped it on my table saw.I have the pieces in a cardboard box some where in my wood shop.There were some standing dead chestnut trees where I grew up.Some trees were still growing but died at 6 to 10 feet.I have been in Maine for 45 years and have not seen a standing dead chestnut.

clww

There are several immature stands of it growing in a few places I occasionally hunt. The reason these never mature is because the bears love chestnuts. They destroy the trees getting the nuts. I have yet to see a wild tree over 15 feet tall up here in the mountains.
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