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felling a completely withered tree?

Started by motif, March 23, 2011, 03:31:34 PM

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motif

Hi Guys,
I have my first, more serious chainsaw task  to do (other then logging  8)) which is to fell completely withered tree,
I mean crown and the trunk is withered. It is around 50 feet tall, trunk diameter maybe 15 inches and is standing straight on small meadow surrounded by other trees. No leaning and no other obstacles then 2 trees from one side.

The question I have is  - does the fact the tree is dried out make any difference what technique to chose?
Can I do regular 70% or so notch and back cut to create a hinge?
Here is my doubts: since it's dried out will the hinge technique still work? or it just snap instantly?
As I am excited to fell my first tree I'm also a little bit worried about my safety during this operation  help_me
thanks

mad murdock

you won't be able to have the same confidence in the hinge for steering the tree as you would with a live tree.  If the bark is falling off, and the tree is really dry, may have heartwood rot as well.  Best to proceeed slowly, and use felling wedges.  good luck, stay safe, don't become a statistic.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

madmari

Thump the trunk with an axe to determine if it is sound. If you get a dull thud, it's rotten. Use a standard felling notch, stay at about 1/4 the diameter and leave a good wide hinge. As soon as you get a bar width into the back cut, put in two wedges and that will stabilize everything. Continue your back cut toward the hinge, slowly. Drive the wedges as you progress. Watch the back cut- any movement in the tree will be told in the back cut. Leave a strong hinge and drive the tree over with the wedges.
  Seems like any time I've had a tree, rotten or not, go bad is when I got careless and in a hurry.

  *Remember to watch the tree top- as you wedge, it's apt to lose branches and fall.
  *The trunk, if not solid may shear at any point and will drop straight down.
  * Let the wind work for you- Don't try to fell a rotten tree into a moderate wind. Makes a huge difference.

  Be careful and best of luck.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

ely


motif

thanks Madmari for tips,
I guess I have to buy a hard hat and another wedge because I have only one.
I didn't think before about falling branches from crown during cut...

madmari

One wedge will probably suffice, but two allows you use one on each side of the back cut and gives real good control of the hinge. A couple more will be good to have so if you bury them in the back cut, you can stack two more on top of each other to give serious lift. Remember also to make sure your face cuts meet precisely- if they don't, it will affect the hinge quality. Should they not meet well, clean it up with the saw as best you can.
   The back cut needs to be a little higher than the bottom of the face cut. A good way to make sure you get it right is to scribe a line with your saw from the face cut all the way around the tree to give you a reference line. A back cut that meets the face cut too low is a bad thing, If you do that, stick a wedge in the cut and re-cut higher up, Again, go slow-it pays!
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

motif

not sure though about two things - when doing the back cut I need to stop the saw
to put the wedges, right?  I remember whenever I did that accidentally during logging I had problem with restarting
or pulling saw off the cut. Another thing is to drive the wedges in I'll willy-nilly shake the tree and branches may fall.


madmari

To start, just tap the wedges in ( or just one) and leave room for your bar to clear the wedge. Slide the bar back in and continue to cut toward the face. On a suspect tree, 15" dbh, I 'd leave at least a 2" hinge minimum.
If the chain hits the wedge, not a big deal as long as the wedge stays put.

  As far as the branches go, if it is that rotten that wedging will drop branches just be really alert and watch. A 2" branch a foot long falling from 50 feet will ring your bell at the least and could be far worse.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

madmari

The other option here; if you're not comfortable cutting the tree, find someone professional and learn from them.
I could probably deliver a baby, but I'd rather watch a doctor ;D
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

BaldBob

Quote
  The back cut needs to be a little higher than the bottom of the face cut. A good way to make sure you get it right is to scribe a line with your saw from the face cut all the way around the tree to give you a reference line. A back cut that meets the face cut too low is a bad thing, If you do that, stick a wedge in the cut and re-cut higher up, Again, go slow-it pays!

To be precise, OSHA rules require that the backcut be 1 1/2 to 2" higher than the apex of the notch cut to prevent kickback.  I have seen several fallers be cited for failing to follow that requirement.

Ianab

Quotewhen doing the back cut I need to stop the saw to put the wedges, right?

You don't stop the saw or take it out of the cut, just let it idle, holding it with one hand, grab the wedge from your back pocket and push it into place in the backcut. Only needs to be in hard enough to not fall out. If you are felling the tree WITH it's natural lean, it's just an insurance policy as the tree should start to tip over as you get close to the hinge wood. If you judged it wrong, and the tree leans back and starts to pinch the saw, then you already have the wedge in place. You can give it a tap, put more wedges in etc. Much easier than trying to get one into the kerf AFTER it's closed up.

If you have sawn up to the hinge wood, and the tree hasn't moved, then stop cutting and give the wedge(s) a tap and that should tip it over. As long as you are not fighting a heavy back lean it wont take much to persuade the tree to fall.

Of course, you should be looking up AND wearing a helmet anyway, especially on a dead tree as it's possible that things will fall out of it.

Like the guys have said, dead trees are more risky to fell for several reasons, all the more reason to make sure you are doing it right. But if you are in open space and can drop the tree in the direction it naturally wants to fall, that makes things a lot easier and safer.

Setting a rope in the tree is another option if you are nervous about it dropping limbs on your head. Set the rope as high as you can, make the felling cuts, wedges etc exactly the same, if it doesn't fall, head down to the end of the (long) rope (via a safe path) and winch it down. If the tree does break up as it starts to fall, at least you are 100ft away from the action.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

motif

Quote from: madmari on March 23, 2011, 08:14:30 PM
The other option here; if you're not comfortable cutting the tree, find someone professional and learn from them.
I could probably deliver a baby, but I'd rather watch a doctor ;D

No, I need to do it by myself even if it will ring my bell  ;D

How about the bore back cut I've just watched on youtube, will it work on dead tree?

madmari

I use a bore cut more and more, works well. makes wedging easy, and barber chairs go away. Sharp chain and power make it easy and safe. I'd practice on live trees.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

treefarmer87

1994 Ford L9000
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thecfarm

You need chaps too if you don't have them safety glasses too,hearing protection helps too.Just like Ianab said stop cutting and tap your wedges in.Cut a small tree,make sure you can pound your wedges with it,not too long,short or too small or big. Can use a big hammer or axe too. Don't think by cutting the tree off it will fall where you want it to. The hinge directs the fall. Dead tree are hard to cut. Some don't have the weight of the branches to help them fall over.Than the outside might be kinda soft or will not support a wedge. Just be careful. There is no time limit.Takes you ½ or one hour to cut the tree so what.You get to work away when it's all done,that's what counts. Walk about a 45 degree angle away from the tree and clear an escape route and expect the unexpected. Some small towns offer chainsaw classes too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

tycoon139977

you shuld also watch and make sure the whole top doesnt bust out of the tree as you drive the wedges, i have seen the top bust out of dead trees sevral times as someone hits the wedge or as it starts to fall
Berger M-3, Mini Madill 071, Madill 171, Thunderbird TY-90, Yoader

Banjo picker

This is probably a mute point, but motif needs to make sure the wedge he is using is a felling wedge not a wood busting wedge...one made of plastic which wont hurt your saw the other is metal which could ruin a chain...He seems to be new to felling so he might not know....Sorry if I am being too elementary....Be sure to ware your PPE...esp a hard hat I have personal exp. as to why.   Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

motif

Quote from: Banjo picker on March 24, 2011, 07:09:09 AM
This is probably a mute point, but motif needs to make sure the wedge he is using is a felling wedge not a wood busting wedge...one made of plastic which wont hurt your saw the other is metal which could ruin a chain...He seems to be new to felling so he might not know....Sorry if I am being too elementary....Be sure to ware your PPE...esp a hard hat I have personal exp. as to why.   Tim

Tim, you're right I'm new to wood work and I'm opened to any suggestion.
Good you told me this because the wedge I have is a steel one...

I just thought I'd maybe poke around this tree with big axe to see what and if something fall.
I can't imagine any helmet will help if a big branch will drop on my head...

Jeff

QuoteNo, I need to do it by myself even if it will ring my bell

It won't ring your bell, it will kill you. A small branch can kill you. That same small branch may bounce off a helmet.  Remember if you are intent on cutting this tree, the things that you may take lightly or that you dismiss as not being a big deal can kill you.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

clww

One thing I do sometimes on the trees with a dead top is throw a line up there and see what you can shake or pull loose from a safe distance. I use a weighted small line, then pull a larger diameter rope up with that. If you can get it looped over the dead branch, give it a yank and maybe it will break off. If they're too hard to do by yourself, hook it to your truck, just make sure to use a long rope so it doesn't hit anything when it breaks free under tension when it falls.
By all means, keep looking up when you start felling it. They don't call these "Widow Makers" for nothing!
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

John Mc

Quote from: motif on March 24, 2011, 07:20:08 AM
I just thought I'd maybe poke around this tree with big axe to see what and if something fall.
I can't imagine any helmet will help if a big branch will drop on my head...

That helmet may just save your life, or keep you from spending the rest of your life sitting in a chair babbling and drooling on yourself!

I watched an 10" DBH cherry tree fall and hit a guy with a 2 or 3" branch (still attached to the tree) as it came down. As it turns out, he was limbing a tree that was already down. No one knew he was there. A spotter even gave the thumbs up to the cutter before the back cut was made. The victim stood up just as the tree was starting to move. He never heard any of the screaming and yelling (chainsaw running, hearing protection on).

The branch came down, glanced off his helmet, and struck his shoulder. He was knocked to the ground. I have no doubt he'd be dead or at least have had a serious concussion &/or brain damage without the helmet.
______________

Another tip I've heard when dealing with dead trees: Consider not cutting the stump all the way down at ground level. Standing more upright presents less of a target to falling debris, and a good bit of that target will be at least somewhat protected by your helmet.

A final thought: if you haven't already gotten some good practice in on live trees, do some of that first. Leave the dead one till after you've got some comfort going through all the steps of the process, and have developed a bit of a sense for what might happen with the tree.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

madmari

I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

John Mc

MEMIC used to have a publication called "Production Felling Through Safety: A Guide to Proper Technique in Tree Felling" it was based on the "Game of Logging" classes. It was no substitute for actually taking the classes, but it did have some very good info in it.

Unfortunately, I can't find it on their web site. I sent an email to see if they are still making it available or not. I do have a digital copy in a .pdf file.

John Mc
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Jeff

Here is a video clip of a tree on my property that we put a line in to shake. You can see the results and what might happen if we had been under it pounding on a wedge first. We could have just cut it down the way it was wanting to fall, which was extreme, but Kevin was showing me some different methods to try and get it down safely in the opposite direction.  Take note of the falling clubs and spears!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il1yUfFmoV0
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

motif

Thanks Jeff for the video, "my" tree is a little bit shorter and thicker
but as dead as this one. I think I'm gonna shake it as well with a rope
or something.

You guys threaten me enough already that I'll probably do some notch cut and run away
allowing wind to do the rest  ;D

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