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question about felling notch

Started by jackpine, March 22, 2011, 08:07:04 PM

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jackpine

I had a 30" dia x 90 ft white pine in the yard I was reluctant to take down because of it's proximity to the buildings. I have been sawing for a tree service co. most of this year so made a deal with them to trade some sawing time for this tree being taken down. They used a throw line and rope to help direct the fall but I have never seen a tree notched the way this guy did. On this 30" dia tree with a slight back lean he cut the notch 17½" deep ( I measured the stump after he left). He said he liked to notch past center because then more of the tree weight was over the notch :D Has anyone ever seen this done? I couldn't believe what I was seeing and thought my house might be a goner.
Bill

bill m

I agree, your lucky your house is still standing. By making the notch deeper you are shifting the weight farther back making it harder to tip over. The notch only needs to be deep enough to get a hinge width of 80 % ( or more ) of the dbh.
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banksiana

I agree as well, that tree may have not had much solid wood, maybe not enough for a hinge to even work.  That seemed like a big risk to me.  Big, old trees can act different.

jd540b

I would agree as well-a good rule of thumb is you only need to go deep enough to get a hinge which is 80% of the diameter long and 10% of the diameter thick.

redlaker1

I dont think that is out of line really,   I mean you called in the pros for a reason..

I usually stick to a notch which is 1/3 of the way in,  give or take,   but there are times when a deeper notch is beneficial.    a deeper notch gets more of the weight over the notch and will take less force to get it to fall that way.   
this method I would not recommend to beginners though,   someone with lots of experience is going to know as they start cutting into the tree what it will take,   if they see that the tree isnt that sound then they may not go in as far.


bill m

sorry redlaker1 but that is completely wrong about getting more weight over the notch. With a tree with any back lean what so ever having a deeper notch moves the weight farther back away from the intended direction of fall. This will make the tree harder to wedge over. An example. With a tree of 20 inches dbh, a notch depth of 4 inches and a hinge of 2 inches leaves you with a back cut of 14 inches. A 20 in. dbh tree with a notch depth of 8 inches, hinge of 2 inches leaves a back cut of 10 inches. If you have to lift those trees 3 inches to tip them over the one with the 14 inch back cut will have less of an angle and will be easier to drive wedges.
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tycoon139977

i was always taught that the rule of thumb is 1/4 to 1/3 through the tree for the notch, depending on circumstance, but no more then 1/3 of the way through, as for hinge wood, my grandpa who cut for about 50 years, said you need about 1 in, depending on the size of the tree, sometimes alittle more, and sometimes a little less, depending on lean, weight of the branches, and species because some species barber chair more than others, eg. maple and alder.
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Kevin

By putting the hinge further back it makes the tree easier to pull ahead or wedge over if you have enough wood to work with.

redlaker1

Bill M,  I dont think of it that way,     the deeper the notch   the more weight over it.      the shallower the notch the more weight over the back cut.    the ease of driving wedges is another issue.   he said it had a slight back lean

if a tree is standing perfectly straight,  you could cut the notch 2/3 of the way in and it would fall without assistance to the lay,   but if you cut it 1/3 of the way it would sit back and you would have to wedge it over.

I dont advocate gambling if there is buildings or anything that could be harmed,   but I have cut alot of trees and this is my experience.   its just physics

bill m

You need to be more concerned with the width of the hinge not the depth of the notch. If your hinge is not wide enough it may not hold to get the tree to fall in the intended direction and if there is enough side lean it will not hold.
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tycoon139977

if you are concerned about backsetting, jsut take your wedge and stick it in the back cut once the cut is deep enuf, then if it does backset, it will rest on the wedge, and if it starts to pinch, you can drive your wedge in to open the cut up, but if its going to backset, you shuld be using a wedge anyways, even if you are pulling on it with a line, cuz if it moves enuf, it can always snap the line and go over backwards. Also if your are wedging, you have to leave enuf room in your back but for the wedge so it dont bottom out on your hinge, cuz if the wedge hits the hinge and it still aint moving, what are you gonna do?
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redlaker1

I am always aware of the hinge,  and never take on a difficult tree without a plan.

like I said before I dont think a deep notch is out of line,   a cutters experience will tell him what is safe.

different techniques for different folks I guess.    I always try and keep it on the safe side

if I am concerned about wedges bottoming out I always wedge off to the side a bit so I can stack beside it,   or if the tree is small I will do the backcut first and set a wedge,  and then face it and wedge it over.    like I said there is so many different ways to put a tree on the ground



 

Bobus2003

I always cut 1/2 through a tree, my dad always cuts pat the center of a tree.. We don't do wedging though.. don't even own a wedge :D.. If the tree is near an "obstacle" i use the skidder or some thing to help it over.. out in the woods, i have learned how to "swing" a tree to where i want it, even if it has a back lean on it

captain_crunch

This may raise  a ruckus but on 18-20 in tree leaning wrong way put Back cut in first back up with wedges to prevent more lean then cut face cut. Then beat it off stump with wedges Never went to cutting school just survived 7 years as a faller 
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weisyboy

in australia we are taught and legaly have to cut as follows.


belly cut - 1/4 - 1/3 of tree diameter cut on 45 degree angle, never more than 1/3 or tree can go any ware,

back cut - 1/10th of tree diameter higher than bottom of belly cut

holding wood - 1/10th of tree diameter, never less than this, an over cut loses control of tree.

the forestry inspectors carry a 45 degree angle plastic ruler, the mesure angle and depth if your stumps ain't good you get kicked out.

iv seen some shocking treelopper cut stumps, and more than a few trees felled that made me wanna run for the hills.
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g_man

IMO bill and redlaker are both right. Its just a trade off. If you have to wedge a tree over a deeper back cut ( or shallow notch ) makes wedging easier because you have more leverage but you have to move the top of the tree further to get it past dead center of the hinge. If you have a deep notch and shallow back cut you get less leverage with the wedge but you dont have to bring the top as far over to get past dead center. And as red said, with a slight lean you may already be over centered with the deep notch and not need a wedge at all.

I use captain crunches method of cutting the back first and getting the wedge in first on a severe leaner. If the back cut is to shallow to drive the wedge you can do a plunge cut straight in in the center of the back cut to give you some wedge driving room. You do lose the center of the hinge though.

Government defined felling makes no sense to me - thats pretty restrictive.

At the end of the day it comes down to good judgement based on experience.

northwoods1

Quote from: g_man on March 23, 2011, 09:50:59 AM

Government defined felling makes no sense to me - thats pretty restrictive.

At the end of the day it comes down to good judgement based on experience.


I'd have to agree about myself not wanting to be required to legally follow some type of rules set by the government, but I don't see any problem with them providing guidelines on proper ways to do it. The way Weisy explained he was taught are perfectly sound, and I am certain a lot of people would be well advised to learn and follow some type of guidelines like that because a lot of people just don't have a good understanding of what they are doing when it comes to falling trees.
I could never imagine notching a tree past center there really would never be any reason to need to do that. And to make the back cut before the notch? I can imagine that that could be very dangerous in a lot of situations. Why wouldn't you just make the notch and as soon as you had the back cut made far enough to stick the wedge in do so and then continue? The last thing you would want to be doing is whittling on a notch with a chainsaw when you are approaching the final holding wood, you need to be making the back cut and watching what is happening with the tree so you can control what is going on it seems to me ???

banksiana

All this felling talk is making me want to go cut some trees down! 8)

redlaker1

I only backcut first when there isnt going to be room for the bar and a wedge in the backcut.

this is for small trees that are leaning back a bit,   just because you may not be able to get into the backcut far enough to get a wedge in before it sits back on you

clww

Most every tree I am taking down in the residential neighborhoods, I've taken all the limbs off and most of the trunk. Usually this leaves me anywhere from 20 to 35 feet left standing, depending on the size of the yard. With the bigger trees, 2 feet dbh and larger, these almost always require me to use my winch and heavy rope to persuade them to the correct drop spot. I never cut the notch more than 25%. But it's just me and the winch and chainsaws as far as equipment goes.
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John Mc

I'm in the camp that says you cut only deep enough to get the length of hinge you want (usually 80% of DBH). You want enough hinge length to assure steering the tree on the way down.

On a 90 ft tree, as the O.P. described, if there is any back lean at all, that is going to completely outweigh the depth of your notch as far as "getting the weight over the notch" is concerned. For example, just 3 degrees of lean would move the top of a 90 ft tall tree 56" back. Now the top is not where the center of gravity (c.g.) is, but you get my idea -- it doesn't take much lean to put the c.g. completely behind the stump. No matter how deep you cut the notch, the weight is not going to be "over the notch". (and yes, I know... it's possible to have back lean, but have an asymetrical crown off set that and put the C.G. forward of the stump).

What your contractor described seems very close to me to the erroneous thinking that it is the cut out part of the notch that "makes the tree fall". That's wrong. That missing chunk of wood is almost meaningless compared to lean, wind, whether the crown is all hanging off one side, etc.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

captain_crunch

Try a 60 ft 4ft on butt snag on fer fun  :o You have to cut deep enough face cut into it to create lean. Here is a pic of what we lell every day
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Emajsh

So im just curious about this whole make the back cut before the face cut thing. Ive seen different techniques for leaners as far as different bore cutting or plunge cutting,  which ever you refer to it as, also cuttin the back cut in two different cuts so you can drive a wedge in one side with out the tree moving then cut the other side and add a second wedge while the first wedge holds the tree in place. Also a technique where you bore straight through the hinge wood so your wedge wont bottom out on the hinge.I havent heard of cutting the back cut first then the face cut before, just curious if it has any advantage over any of these methods. Is there certain situations where you would do this over other techniques or is it just personal preference?
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Tom

I've never heard of an experienced feller cutting the backcut first either.  If someone is suggesting that here, I missed it.  It's that wedge you take from the "Front" that allows the first bole to clear the stump and to design the hinge that will direct the fall.  It also allows the feller to "over-center" the tree's weight in the direction he wants it to fall. 

In all occupations someone will come up with a marginal or willy-nilly idea to perpetuate their apparent knowledge.  The trick to getting through more life alive is to be able to decipher the difference in the mumbo jumbo and experience.  :)

g_man

Boy you guys are hard  ;D
Here is what I do when I do the back cut first. Its really is just a variation of other methods, but IMO it is easier and the tree is less apt to roll than it is if you do half the back cut and put in an off center wedge.

If I have a small tree, say 12", that is leaning back and I know I might get the saw pinched before there is room for a wedge in the back cut if I cut it the normal way, I do this; Start the back cut first, go in 3" to 4" or so and stop. Start the wedge or wedges where I need them. Go around to the front and make the notch cuts. Finish the back cut by plunging thru ahead of the wedges and cut to make a standard hinge.
Again it is only for trees that are small where the saw might get pinched before you have room for a wedge.

Flog away - I got my shirt off and I am braced.
If this is dangerous I want to know.

banksiana

I think that however you do it, if you understand the basic mechanics of why you are doing it and how it works, you can ad lib however you feel is justified.  Only if you understand the mechanics though.  I don't have the experience or technique to do a back cut first, and I understand the basic reasoning of why they want to do it, but I wouldn't do it.  I would need to have a bunch more experience felling to take that leap and feel safe about it.  A notch cut is hard enough for me to keep it straight and level, I don't want to have to notch it so the back cut would line up and make a perfect hinge.

beenthere

Quote from: g_man on March 25, 2011, 06:59:02 PM
.........If I have a small tree, say 12", that is leaning back and I know I might get the saw pinched before there is room for a wedge in the back cut if I cut it the normal way, I do this; Start the back cut first, go in 3" to 4" or so and stop. Start the wedge or wedges where I need them. Go around to the front and make the notch cuts. Finish the back cut by plunging thru ahead of the wedges and cut to make a standard hinge.
Again it is only for trees that are small where the saw might get pinched before you have room for a wedge.......

Good plan g_man
That is just the way I've been doing it too, on some smallish ash trees that are leaning the wrong way. Just enough back cut to plant the wedges. Then the notch, and the plunge cut to finish the hinge and back out to the wedges.

Many trees are so different, a locked-in method just doesn't fill the bill. Start out with some basic plan and guide, and branch out from there to handle the trees that don't fit.
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Emajsh

I get what your saying now, so your not making your whole back cut just enough to start a wedge, then basically a bore cut from there but instead of leaving a "strap" on the back of the tree your wedge is doing that job.
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northwoods1

Quote from: g_man on March 25, 2011, 06:59:02 PM
Boy you guys are hard  ;D

If I have a small tree, say 12", that is leaning back and I know I might get the saw pinched before there is room for a wedge in the back cut if I cut it the normal way,ff and I am braced.
If this is dangerous I want to know.


Well really it would have to be on a tree smaller than even 12", ... because you are dealing with the width of your saw bar more than anything. A 12" you could make just a tiny notch like 2" in and then you could easily get a wedge in before it pinched unless it was a real softwood and a severe leaner. In which case you most likely wouldn't want to be wasting time and energy sticking a wedge in it and pounding on it to make it go where it did not want to.
When I have that situation I make the notch as shallow as possible and just stick the wedge in as soon as the bar is far enough in the back cut. I normally have a bunch of plastic wedges that have the narrowest part already chewed away from hitting them with the saw to at least the width of the saw kerf, so that makes it easier. OR, do you really have to fight a little tree like that which is leaning? Not very often do you have to fight a small tree like that to get it lay down a certain direction and when you do it is much simpler to use a mechanical means to do it, or just lay it down the way it wants to go and deal with it.
When your talking about a large tree that might be dangerous or you need to lay it down in a certain way... I can't see why anyone in their right mind would ever consider whittling at a notch when the back cut has been made, if you do that you are just gambling on what will happen or it is because you made a mistake. You have the most control over a tree by making a proper notch and how your make the back cut.
Most important I think might be to point out that g-man... you sound like you could get away with cutting a tree anyway imaginable and you  have the experience behind you to not get yourself hurt.  But Motif here, he has to be careful... because he has no experience whatsoever.

Ianab

Agreed, I don't see any serious problems with G_man's plan.

Starting the backcut first and setting a wedge isn't going to make anything happen. Then most of the tree is still intact when he cuts his notch, so nothing should go wrong there. Then plunge cut to finish the back cut and leave the the tree sitting on the hinge wood + wedges and then wedge the tree over.

Even if he judged the lean wrong, the tree will just fall normally when he cuts though the last bit of the holding strap and completes the back cut.

There are other ways to achieve a similar result, but I don't see his method as "wrong".

Ian
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northwoods1

Quote from: Ianab on March 25, 2011, 07:45:28 PM
Agreed, I don't see any serious problems with G_man's plan.

Starting the backcut first and setting a wedge isn't going to make anything happen. Then most of the tree is still intact when he cuts his notch, so nothing should go wrong there. Then plunge cut to finish the back cut and leave the the tree sitting on the hinge wood + wedges and then wedge the tree over.

Even if he judged the lean wrong, the tree will just fall normally when he cuts though the last bit of the holding strap and completes the back cut.

There are other ways to achieve a similar result, but I don't see his method as "wrong".

Ian

When you are talking about a tree that would pinch the bar before you could cut far enough into it to stick a wedge in... it would be a really small tree and severely leaning :D  :D :D

You gonna be plunge cutting a little tree like that? That is not the way to do things in my book :D :D

I'd 1st ask myself if I really needed to fall the tree that direction.... ??? most likely it would just be easier to fall it where it wanted to go and then deal with it. If it was in a dangerous situation where it couldn;t fall a certain way then I would have a machine or some mechanical means to tip it and this discussion would still be moot. :)

just my opinion though and I hope you don;t mind hearing it :)



Ianab

He may indeed be making things more complicated than they actually need to be, but I don't think his method is unsafe, and he did say it was smaller trees  :)

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

captain_crunch

A feller doing it wrong on West Coast dont live long and Claud was 55 when he showed me how to do this. Put back cut in to where you want it drive in wedges then saw out face cut then lean into wedges with 4lb ax. all cutting on back cut is done if you have to tickle face a might so be it. Long as you got 1- 1 1/2" hinge wood unless hurricane comes along a Doug Fir aint going anywhere while doing this
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weisyboy

around here a good stump i the sighn of a good faller, and we regularly get stump audits.



this is a stump of  spotted gum tree that had a lean to the left (top) and had to be felled along the side of a creek, heavier holding wood was left on the right (bottom) side to pull the tree around. this shows a perfectly cut stump.



this is a red ironbark stump, the belly was cut to deep and there was a risk of the tree slabbing up or falling uncontrollably. red irobark is a free splitting timber and will slab up very easily.

both of those stumps are over 2' threw.
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weisyboy

as for doing any kind of backcut first, i would not be any ware near that tree, a mutch safer and more accurate way would be to throw a rope over and pull it the right direction.
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Kevin

QuoteHe said he liked to notch past center because then more of the tree weight was over the notch
He's right and he knows what he's doing.
The hinge is a fulcrum and you can use it to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

chet

I also use da deeper notch approach on some trees. Not only will it take less effort to "tip" the tree, the wider face of the notch will give you more control if you need to "steer" the tree.
Some times the only reason I use a deep notch is just to get to good clean holding wood.

A good test of the deep notch theory is ta slowly slide yer beverage over da edge of yer table. I'll bet once it gits past center you'll have a mess ta clean up.  ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

Ed_K

On a small tree like your describing,I would make my notch then bore from the center of the notch straight back to back of tree and set my wedge.the cut from the back a inch below wedge from hazard side first then other the other side and pound wedge and tip tree over,best thing with this option is the wedge won't bottom out before the tree falls.
Back to original tree,I'd bore into the tree vertically below where you plan to cut see if it's hollow.If it is then fall to where the weight is going to take it anyway.If there something in the way get a bucket truck.
Ed K

redlaker1

like I mentioned before,   backcut first only on small trees that wont have room for both the bar and the wedge in the backcut.     the end result is the same as if I faced it first,  minus a pinched bar.    its just as safe because there will be the same notch and same amount of hinge,   but there will be a wedge set securely in the backcut.

if I had a machine there to push it or pull it over that would be a different story.

I am pretty sure this technique is mentioned in either the beranek book,  or the old one by dent I think was the author.  Professional Timber falling procedures

Kevin

G.F covers this topic on wedging small trees.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mad murdock

All of this notch, and back cut, wedge, then face cut talk is giving me a wedgy ::) ;)  Kidding aside, if a guy has a good handle on the mechanics of what is going on, do what works for the situation at hand.  I have cut trees around buildings and tight quarters, and the best way to make sure a tree goes where you want, is to have it stayed with ropes, a winch line or a machine, to make sure it goes where you want.  I never depend on just the wedges and my cutting technique to assure that the tree doesn't hit something it is not supposed to. 
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Kevin

QuoteWho (what) is G.F  ??

G.F. Beranek

RandyMac

I had the old school formal training, I apprenticed with old men who lived through the transition from handtools to powered saws.
I was shown that a 33% undercut was a minimum depth, 45% was average, up to 60% on occasion. Too shallow a facecut and you risk slabbing, too deep, it may sit back. As for cutting the back first, it was common enough in the big timber for back leaners, where a combination of jacks and wedges were used.
Each tree is different and needs to be addressed as such, there is no fast and simple, one size fits all rule. Anyone who thinks so, hasn't seen enough trees.
Have you heard about the guy who claims to have felled 2 million trees?

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