Advise for Sawmill for the Tropics?

crtreedude · December 18, 2003, 03:43:39 AM

Hi All,

Well, I have been looking through the forum and am getting some great information but I am hoping to tap into some of the knowledge you all have. Of course, it might be a little outside of your area but it should be a fun thread.

You see, I am engaged in reforestation in Costa Rica and own a tree plantation. 8) The problem ;) is that I have about 200 trees that need to be harvested this year (2004) or next. Since we are just getting started, I don't yet own a sawmill and am in the process of researching.

A couple of things to give some background. In Costa Rica, particularly in the campo (country), labor is cheap. The going rate for farm labor is 400 colones, which is 1.00 an hour, Hector, my partner who is Costa Rican ( they call themselves Ticos ) tells me I cannot pay more or else everyone else will be upset, so we give them stuff from the farm ( oranges, watermelon, coconuts, etc ) and old clothes when we travel. I said all of that to say that labor saving devices are not that important to me. In fact, we will probably have a crew because it provides jobs and because things will get done quicker and safer.

Reliability is critical and the ease of repairing. There are very good mechanics who can keep almost anything working and they take great care of their equipment. Also, I would like equipment that is realitively safe - they know about chainsaws and usually use Alaskan saw mills so they know that you can get hurt with a saw mill.

The first trees I have to saw are about 120 feet tall with a bole of at least 80 feet clear. The diameter of the trees are at least 1 foot and up to 3 feet at least. Most of the trees are around 2 feet in diameter. I am assuming that we will need to cut it up some. Also, almost all of the wood is hardwood with very little grain (no winters). Most of the wood is considered very stable, in fact some of it you can make furniture while it is still green believe it or not.

Eventually (5 to 6 years) I will be starting to harvest thinnings that are 9 to 12 inches in diameter. These will be teak, mahogany, Spanish Cedar (nothing like American Cedar, more like mahogany), etc. The bole will be 20 to 40 feet in length and there is a market for the young wood.

I guess my question is what should I first invest in? The 200 trees are very valuable so I would like to do them right, but I understand that there is a learning curve.

Also, there seems to be a very good opportunity to cut for the local farms you usually have the same amount of wood. Unfortunately, the local loggers often take advantage of them and give them next to nothing for their wood. They also just take the very best and destroy everything else in the process. So portablity is important.

I am not in a hurry to do this this in 2004 but I will probably need to start in 2005 in at the latest.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and thanks ahead of time for all suggestions. Also, I would love to see some portable sawmills in action. I am currently living in New Jersey and would be willing to travel a day trip. I definitely would like to get my hands dirty helping with no expect pay. (Free labor!)

Norm · December 18, 2003, 04:27:28 AM

Good morning Fred, by the sounds of what you've described you may want to look at a swingblade. I've not seen one myself but have heard enough about them that it sounds like what you may be looking for. If you need wide boards then the bandmills are a good choice. I've owned a wood-mizer for a couple of years and have been pleased with it's durability and workmanship. Good luck, sounds like a cool project.

Tom · December 18, 2003, 04:48:05 AM

A swinger would be portable and cut the biggest trees without doing anything special and cut down on blade inventory that you would experience with a bandsaw mill.

I'd still opt for the bandsaw mill. With plenty of labor hydraulics may not be required but I would try to get at least 20 horses on the mill.

A rigid framed mill transports and sets up easier but most any of the little mills work good in a stationary setup. A good company standing behind you would be real important. Finding one that is already doing business down there would be a plus. Blade supply and spare parts and blade sharpening equipment would be a necessity too. You might be able to start a couple of the "help" up in business sharpening blades if you can get them trained.

BW_Williams · December 18, 2003, 05:29:41 AM

Welcome to the forum Fred, If it were me, I would order the demo videos from Peterson and Lucas, try to see or use any portable mill and choose from there. With that inventory of trees you can't go wrong, if you have a market. I would look closely at export laws, tariffs etc. before investing too much. When you visit other sawyers, be dressed properly, help if they say you may, watch and learn. Good luck BWW
ps: If you end up going with a Lucas, I would be glad to come down and get you going for a couple weeks, transportation, room and board required, preferrably in the winter!

RevCant · December 18, 2003, 07:45:59 AM

Fred,
I operate a Peterson swingblade mill in Southern Maryland. If you are interested in this type of mill you are welcome to come by and see the operation. For simplicity, ease of operation, and cutting performance, a swingblade is a good choice. If you are going to be in a remote location, you will want something that is reliable. With a swingblade mill, there's just not that much that can go wrong. Some normal wear parts, basis engine maintanace, etc.
I understand that tropical woods are denser and harder to saw than we are used to. A swingblade should handle these denser woods with little problems.

Good Luck

Wes · December 18, 2003, 12:15:51 PM

If it were me Id locate an old circle mill and set it up perminately on your site, and get something else to work those large diameter logs down with to fit on the circle mill. like a large chainsaw or some of the mills mentioned.
We tried milling a large cocobolo cant 12"by12" with a wood mizer a while ago with poor results. Since labor rates arnt a concern I think youll get better production and straighter boards from a circle mill,cocobolo is very dense and contains silicon in its pores which dulls band blades quickly.[ Im preity sure silicon is the correct term], if not someone please correct me.
I own a bandmill and am very happy with it but it has its limits, I also work with an older circle mill and and find that it also has its limits, you really need three people to operate it efficiently where as most of the portable mills can be operated by one or two people
When Im milling in the yard again I'll contact you if it works out rite youll be able to see both types in operation. I think im only an hr or two from you.
When you contact cocobolo Inc. ask them the same questions and I think that you will be very happy with the results.
Wes

Ron Wenrich · December 18, 2003, 02:05:32 PM

http://www.doublecut.com/sawmill_detail.asp?mill=1

Rigid frame, portable, and uses circle blades like the swing mill. Just another option.

http://www.sawmills.co.nz/auto.html

Mahoe in NZ also makes a portable mill. Its more of a dimension mill.

A lot will depend on how much you want to invest, what product you want to sell, and how long you want to keep your equipment. Updating and expanding every couple of years can be expensive.

crtreedude · December 18, 2003, 03:33:55 PM

I really appreciate the feedback. I started off thinking that I should go with a bandsaw version about a year ago but now I am "swinging" toward a swing blade. They seem simpler to operate as well maintain.

Yes, tropical hardwoods can be very dense and cocobolo is one of the worse. In fact if I remember correctly, it is the second hardest wood there is. Cocobolo can actually cause you a rash like poison ivy if you happen to be allergic to the sawdust. Beautiful wood and incredibly hard.

Thanks also for the offer to see sawmills in action. I will definitely come prepared to work - will a three piece suit be appropriate? :D In my youth (and I am not that old now) I used to work in a lumber yard and as a mechanic so I should be able to handle it.

As the time get closer, I will even think about having someone come down to train the people, with expenses paid. Of course, the lodgings will be pretty primitive... I am sure that it will disappoint you all to know that most of the time it will be between Dec and April, the dry season. I am sure you will miss the weather in the North that time of year. ;)

By the way, export is not an issue. There is no tarifs to most countries like the USA because there is no market to protect. I don't see much teak grown in USA... I have checked the laws and there is no tarifs. The only issue comes in that the wood needs to be certified as coming from a plantation and not from the rainforest or it can be rejected. For example, mahagony was placed on the CITIES endangered species list this year, which also caused the price to jump.

Ianab · December 18, 2003, 03:34:21 PM

I'd definately suggest you look at the Peterson sawmills. They were originally designed for exactly the sort of environment and conditions you describe. The tropical Islands in the South Pacific actually.. but remote areas, semi-skilled labour, harsh environment, poor transport. Apart from some basic wear parts (mostly blade tips) and engine maintainance there is so little to go wrong and all of the operation can be seen and understood by any bush mechanic. The ATS sawmill can be carried to a large log 2 guys and set up around it.
With plenty of cheap hired help I reckon you could get pretty good production figures, the mill will cut way more timber in a day than anyone in their right mind would want to odd load ;)

ian

BW_Williams · December 18, 2003, 09:25:44 PM

Sounds like you've done your homework Fred. I'm thinin' January '05 sounds good, primitive is ok by me, have ever seen a fire camp? BWW

crtreedude · December 19, 2003, 05:25:40 AM

BWW,

Nope, never seen a fire camp but I would assume they are pretty primative. Actually, we will probably do much better. There is a little house on the property with running water, refrigerator and a good outhouse. There is also a kitchen, etc. It even has a shower - but no hot water.

Truthfully my wife and I stay with our partner - their home is very acceptable.

In my youth I did a lot of camping so I really don't care where I sleep as long as it is not too noisy.

I'll definitely keep in touch. I am sure to have many questions to ask! By all means, if anyone wants to ask about reforestation in the tropics, I will answer what I can.

Ian,

It is good to see that my own research is corresponding with what everyone seems to be recommending, maybe this will not be so bad. Wes, I definitely will be contacting your friends at cocoboloinc.com

Fred

Corley5 · December 19, 2003, 04:50:29 PM

I'm looking forward to a sawmill related trip to Costa Rica in the future. What about a F Forum pig roast at Fred's some winter? ;D ;D 8)

crtreedude · December 19, 2003, 05:27:31 PM

Now there is a good idea! I provide the pig! You have not lived until you have had fresh chicharrones (pig cracklings). That with some yuca, fresh limes and beer, it doesn't get any better.

Fred

Fla._Deadheader · December 19, 2003, 06:59:07 PM

Hey Fred, Don'T forget the ceviche ;) ;) Now, that's good stuff, Maynard ;D ;) :D

I would agree with a Swing Blade MIll for what you want to do. Biggest reason would be, to NOT be dragging them logs in that sticky dirt. Put the mill over the log and stack the boards on a truck or trailer. Leave the scraps to rot down and replace the humus. I've seen the Lucas, but, think I prefer the Peterson. Talk to Kiwi Jake. ;) ;)

Wes · December 19, 2003, 07:10:07 PM

The last time I was there the local village had roasted a steer for us and one of the locals cooked up a gator that we cought. The beef was a little tough and the gater was real good. Also had some barbecued iguana, tastes like chicken. ;D
Im about ready for a trip to the tropics,count me in.

KiwiJake · December 19, 2003, 10:55:39 PM

A small note, the difference between a "swingblade" to a bandsaw or multi circular, with the one blade of the swinger you are able to cut your full capacity boards (swinger's is 10"x20") in stages where as the other mills must take them in its full bite. This becomes a huge advantage when dealing with tension logs or very hard wood.

Bigdogpc · December 20, 2003, 02:09:34 AM

Why not go with one of each? Labor doesn't sound like an issue. Get a prime time swinger (don't know much about these) and a manual bandsaw. The bandsaw could be setup for any spectacular logs where the small kerf would payoff. I use a Timberking 1220 which will do 12 footers stock but extensions can be added for whatever lengths you might want to cut. The 29" diameter capability sounds like it would handle most of what you want to cut. It is a simple machine and maintenance should not be an issue.

What the heck, I had to get my two cents in :D :D

crtreedude · December 20, 2003, 03:08:56 AM

Ah yes, ceviche, wonderful stuff. The last time I had it we were at Los Lagos, ( http://www.hotelloslagos.com/ ) after a hard week planting trees. We went there for a little decadence at the end of the trip and the Volcano was being very active that night. Hung out in the hot springs and watched the show.

I am sure that I will end up with at least two sawmills (who knows how many really) but I have to start with something. Now, if I was already in Costa Rica, buying two would be even more of a temptation, but the first one I will probably not get to use very much.

I took someone suggestion and ordered the promotional materials from both Peterson and Lucas. It should be fun to go through. I have looked at Woodmizer as well.

The beef tends to be tough in Costa Rica because they never age it and it is not grain fed. However, I once had some filet mignon in Monteverde that was incredibly good. My wife and I had 2 diners with all the trimmings and I had a couple of very nice red wine and two deserts. The bill came and with tax and everthing it was under $34 dollars. It was then I decided I had to move...

Corley5 · December 20, 2003, 07:37:54 AM

How's the price of real estate down there? $ per acre

Fla._Deadheader · December 20, 2003, 08:52:14 AM

Greg, you will hafta get yer conversion tables out. Land in CR sells by the m3 or Hectare :

;) ;D ;D ;D Closer to the ocean, higher the price. ;) :D :D :D

crtreedude · December 20, 2003, 11:02:58 AM

Depends on the land, as they say in real estate, there are only three things that matter, location, location and location. Actually, one other thing, quality of the soil.

The land I purchased has 1/2 meter of volcanic top soil and is incredibly rich, which is rare for the tropics. It cost about $1,000 per acre USD. It has very good access and was in perfect shape with nice buildings, etc. It also has a small river running through it. You can purchase for about half that amount or less, but the soil is terrible and the access is even worse. I just depends on what you are looking for.

By the way, one hectare is 2.47 acres.

Fred