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Helper on the sawmill ?

Started by MWS, March 05, 2011, 08:48:43 AM

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Brian_Rhoad

Jeff, I agree with what you are saying. If someone hires me to saw up their logs that makes me a "contractor". If they provide a helper there needs to be some way to prove who is working for who. That can and should be spelled out in a contract. I'm only repeating what I was told when I asked the questions. The federal auditor asked her supervisor and showed me the rules in a book about 4" thick.

As far as the subcontractor part. If it is not in writing as to the log owner not being an employee they are considered to be an employee to the IRS because they are helping you do a job you are getting paid to do.

These questions came up during a federal audit over 15 years ago. I was told and shown some other rules that most people would say are crazy and disagree with also.

The insurance agent said the problems usually are when someone is injured and their insurance company starts asking questions. If or when they find out that the injury occured at a sawmill they want the sawmill owner to pay the bill.

Brucer

My sawmill insurance covers me for liability. However, there's a clause that says that anyone who runs the sawmill itself (besides me) must be an employee and must be covered by Worker's Compensation.

My part-time help doesn't run the sawmill and she's a contractor, not an employee. All the paperwork is in order to make sure she meets the tax department's criteria.

Rules will vary state-by-state, province-by-province, and country-by-country. In my case the insurance company has the final say.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Chuck White

Brian;
That would be covered in the last paragraph in the standard sawyers contract!

That is what MagicMan is showing us in his post.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Peter Drouin

Will some one put up a (standard sawyers contract) thanks
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Norm

Each state handles the liability issue according to their rules of law. I would do as MM and spend the money on a lawyer to find out what yours are.

Labor laws have gotten so convoluted I gave up trying to understand them.

Jeff

Magicman has posted his contract in the past.

Quote from: Magicman on August 10, 2009, 07:48:25 PM
In another thread I mentioned that I always sign and have the customer sign a contract before any work is done.  I designed my contract to be torn in half so that each of us get's a copy:


THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________  and
Sawyer:  KNOTHOLE  SAWMILL, LLC,   with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:

1.  Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at:  Customer's Site  or  Sawyer's Site  for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut.  Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume.  (Note,  Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer).  A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1".   Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie:  0-1"= 1",  1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc.  Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.

2.  In addition to above,  Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer.  Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move.  In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.

3.  Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber.  All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.

4.  Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________

5.  It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous.  Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber.  It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.  Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________ 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THIS AGREEMENT, by and between Customer:_______________________________________  and
Sawyer:  KNOTHOLE  SAWMILL, LLC,   with the Wood-Mizer one-man sawmill as follows:

1.  Sawyer agrees to cut Customer's logs at:  Customer's Site  or  Sawyer's Site  for $___________ per thousand board feet of lumber cut.  Charges are based on actual lumber cut rather than scaled volume.  (Note,  Net usable lumber will be greater than scale when cut with the Wood-Mizer).  A board foot of lumber is defined as 12"X12"X1".   Dimension
lumber sizes apply; ie:  0-1"= 1",  1"-2"=2", 2"-3"=3", 3"-4"=4", etc.  Logs less than 8' will be scaled as 8'.

2.  In addition to above,  Customer shall pay Sawyer $__________ for delivery and location setup of the Wood-Mizer.  Also, if the Sawyer is required to relocate the Wood-Mizer on site, there shall be an additional charge of $_________ per move.  In the event a saw blade is broken or damaged by foreign matter (nail, horseshoe, spike, fence wire, etc.) in the customer's log, there is a charge of $_________ per damaged blade.

3.  Customer agrees to provide _______ men to assist in loading and reloading logs and lumber.  All logs shall be stacked in location of mill so that there can be continuous loading of mill by rolling logs without moving mill.

4.  Payment in full shall be made as follows: _________________________________________

5.  It is understood by the Customer that log handling and cutting may be hazardous.  Customer shall be responsible for the conduct of helpers and observers and agrees to hold Sawyer and Wood-Mizer Products, Inc. harmless for any injury or damage whatsoever to helpers or observers arising out of the operation of the mill and the handling of logs and lumber.  It shall be the Customer's duty and obligation to keep all children and observers out of the work area.
Customer represents that he is the owner of the logs and/or has the authority to enter into this
Agreement on behalf of all interested parties.  Dated this ___day of ______________, 20___

Sawyer:________________________________Customer:_______________________________


This is just what I use.  You can re-design and customize it to fit your needs.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

red oaks lumber

if you own the mill you are self employed, hired to provide a service to the log owner wheather it's cheaper for him to help or not doesn't make him an employee.
far as contracts go they are only as legal as the paper their written on.atleast in wisconsin any way.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Larry

It's all roses until somebody gets hurt.  Than the injured party has medical bills, or perhaps smells blood money and hires a lawyer.  Win, loose, or draw its gonna cost the sawyer.  Maybe not big bucks if he is lucky, but lost sleep, time, and aggravation. :( :(

My helpers name are Mr. Dragback, and Mr. Ford.  They rely on Mr. Rollers for a good time. ;D  None of us like travel so were all stay at home types...but we do work well together. :) :)
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

paul case

i actually shut the mill off when someone comes in the door just for this reason. i can off bear just fine. if i had help they would probably get me hurt(thats my story and i am sticking to it)so even if my son shows up wanting to help i fix him up with cutting boards to length or splitting wood. oh yeah, when someone is watching me i tend to make more oopses. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

sgschwend

The following is my understanding, so here is my 2 cents worth.
I hope this helps, certainly each state can set their own labor rules and they do.   

In Washington State I can hire a subcontractor to help me at the mill. 

Because the helper is a sub, I do not need LNI insurance or any of the other employee like services. 

The helper would need to meet Washington State's sub contractor requirements; the two main sticking points are the purchase of a $35 license and the ability to demonstrate that the sub has more than one client (not just me). The sub being self employed will likely avoid all of the pitfalls I would have had as the employer.

At the end of the year I would be required to send this sub-contractor a 1099 if the annual payment exceeded $600.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Ianab

Another thing to consider is that different agencies will see things from a different points of view.

Inland revenue want to know what $$ is changing hands so they can get their cut of it.

OSH want to try and keep you safe, even from yourself. Who is paying or working for who doesn't concern them, your mill and someone gets hurt you might have an issue.

Insurance Companies want to know is going to pay if something goes wrong. They will try and insure it's someone other than them....

So you need to consider it from all those points of view, and probably some I haven't considered, and make sure your butt is at least semi-covered.

Having a contract does help, but it wont contract you out of legal obligations. Like if you remove a guard from the mill and a broken band pokes some ones eye out you may be in trouble, from OSHA. Even if you warned them of the danger, and some ones insurance is going to pay.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ely

larry is correct ,IMO. i dont feel like any of this matters until someone gets hurt, then you may get to find out what that piece of paper is worth or not worth. as the case may be.

to me its like the paper that you sign when you go to some sporting event like a truck pull or mud bog. all is good and well until that blower belt wraps around some poor saps head and they  get a lawyer. :D

Magicman

I won't be caught putting my head in the sand and at least trying to minimize any possible legal action.  Contracts will not prevent accidents, and I will not defend mine or my choice to have one.  That's my decision and my attorney and my insurance carrier approve of it.

Jeff re-posted my contract because several members asked to see it and I had previously posted it.  It was for their benefit and not intended to be judged by those that choose to  handle their business decisions differently. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

AvT

Woodmizer provided me with a pad when I bought my mill. one side is a custom cutting tally sheet and the other side has a contract on it that looks very much like MMs contract.  It looks like MM made quite a few changes to cover his situation.  one can probably order the woodmizer contract pad from woodmizer Part# C12343/Form# 260/ 9/03.
I'm pretty sure woodmizer thought out the wording pretty carefully.  I was reading somthing the other day that they were sued for somthing like half a million because of an injury.  I checked into liabilty insurance for a sawmill operation after I bought my mill.  I'm still in shock at the cost of it.
Wannabe sawyer, Cord King M1820 firewood processor Palax KS35 Ergo firewood Processor, 5403 John Deere, Bunch of other farm equipment,   LT70 Remote Woodmizer.  All good things but the best things in life are free.. If you don't believe me.. hold your breath for 2 minutes

beenthere

MM
Good comments, and any form of a contract spelling out responsibilities is many times better than none at all.

Lawyers are our #1 problem. Whether there is written info, nothing written, or written by another lawyer...they will still find plenty to spend their time debating an issue just to get paid for their time (and then some).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kansas

We don't want customers helping us. we have one tree service that brings in logs to have custom sawn. Even though we have phased out our custom sawing, we still do some stuff for him. But I know he runs legal and if one of his workers gets hurt, its covered by workers comp.

Remember that workers comp also protects the employer. Unless there is gross negligence, which is hard to prove, you can't be sued by an employee. Maybe its just me, but it seems like I shy away from signed contracts. I always figure if you have to sign a contract, then that means you don't trust the person you are doing work for. I realize there are exceptions. But if I have a customer I feel like might be a problem, and I need a contract, then I would prefer to walk away from the deal. Contracts mean rich lawyers. Again, this is just me and my personal feelings. When you are in business, you get to choose how to conduct said business. That is the way we do it. Doesn't mean its right. Just means that is the way we want to do it.

Plus, if lawyers get involved, it means I can't go and collect or take care of business myself. By whatever methods I deem necessary. Lawyers take the fun away.

band-it lumber

don't ask don't tell that's how i roll :D

Brucer

Quote from: AvT on March 07, 2011, 11:39:53 AM
... I checked into liabilty insurance for a sawmill operation after I bought my mill.  I'm still in shock at the cost of it.

Go to your friendly local insurance agent. Tell them to contact Underwriting Contract Administrators Inc., and ask about the Woodchuck program. Your agent gets a commission for handling the policy.

I have $2,000,000 liability and $1,000,000 personal injury. The sawmill is covered for its new value for the first 3 years -- after that it's covered for its depreciated value.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Coon

Brucer, if you don't mind me asking... What does that policy cost you for the year? Does the policy cover all of your handling equipment and such?

Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Brucer

$1320 last year.

That's for a 4 year old LT40HDG28, 2 - 6' bed extensions, a 7 year old twin blade edger, and a few options I added to the mill.

A good chunk of the fee is for liability insurance -- probably $800 - $1000 (it's not spelled out). The rest depends on the declared value of the equipment.

For the owner of a new mill, for the first 3 years you get insured for replacement cost on the mill, which is a pretty good deal.

It doesn't cover you for traffic damage while towing. In BC it's supposed to be licensed so the regular highway insurance covers it for that.

You can ask them for a brochure.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Coon

Thanks for the info.  I'll be checking into it once I purchase a mill this spring. I can live with rates like that.  I talked to one insurance company briefly and he was talking like 2-3 thousand for 1 million liability and prorated coverage on the mill according to it's age and hours. 

Brad.
Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

Brucer

The "Woodchuck" program is good anywhere in Canada. It was developed in Atlantic Canada specifically for portable mills. Here's a link.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

LorenB

Quote from: ely on March 07, 2011, 09:39:30 AM
to me its like the paper that you sign when you go to some sporting event like a truck pull or mud bog. all is good and well until that blower belt wraps around some poor saps head and they  get a lawyer. :D

ely,

Funny you should mention that one.  Years ago I went to a tractor pull at an indoor arena.  During the competition one of the engines blew up and a piece the size of a softball whizzed over everyone's heads and broke the glass in the box behind us.  It missed me by a few feet.  I estimate it was traveling at about 200 mph, much faster than a baseball pitch. 

Fortunately it missed the fifty or so people who were all just below it and didn't even hit anyone in the box, so no lawyers got involved (I assume).  Even so, I haven't been to a tractor pull since. 

– Loren
Loren
Baker 3667D portable sawmill, Cook's edger, Logrite arches & peaveys.  Husky 272XP chainsaw & two Echos.

mayor

Milling is old school and thats the way we like it...however......if you give the boy down the street 20 bucks too offbear slabs for you this evening and he gets hurt......your liable fincancially.
If he shows up and starts offbearing slabs on his own and gets hurt.......then it reverts back too the homeowners insurance or whoever owns the property the mill is sitting on.

If you pay him in any way though......unless he has a legitimate business of his own and produces a 1099 form too you and proof of business insuance on his part.......then you are liable for any accidents.

A good way too do it is too open two businesses....one is a rental business that only owns everything and it rents the mill too the other business which owns nothing.....both are insured but the payment too employees comes from the one which owns nothing.
If a major lawsuit takes place......there's nothing too benefit from a business that owns nothing.  However.....different states have different laws concerning this and one needs too talk with a cpa or lawyer about opening the business.

Another thing is the fact that too keep everyone legal....you will be paying insurance, franchise license, contractor licenses where applicable, unemployment compenstaion, workers compensations, state and federal taxes, business and occupation taxes, and then comes the equipment.......running fuel stickers on the trucks, stopping at all the weight stations, apportioned plates, business insurances, etc. .
Now then....on top of that comes osha....with the logging industry being one of the most dangerous of all industries..some states are incoporating osha standards into all milling operations....so that means your guys have too have osha cards which you have too pay the training for.  Lets not forget the EPA.....yeah...those guys...there comes acid runoff from the sawdust,  standard logging practises,  reclamation of all logging roads and lands. 
It could go on and on for a legal milling operation.
Another thing most folks dont realize is "crane operation".....if you have a boom truck or a log loader.....it will be law very soon and already is in most states that you carry a crane license on you too run the cranes. 

What has happened too this world?.........its crazy.

isawlogs


and then some are asking themselves where your economy has gone !!!!   ::)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

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