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32 HP(maybe)

Started by EZ, December 14, 2003, 05:42:58 PM

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EZ

My mill has a 16 hp on it. So if I put another 16 hp beside it then that would give me 32 hp, right, I dont know. Would it saw like a 32 hp single engine. I figure when I'm sawing smaller stuff I would just use one engine and both for the bigger stuff. What do ya think.
I know, just buy a bigger motor, but I want the customers to remember me with something different.
EZ

Tom

Boy!  That would be different. :D

In outboards, they say that twins deliver more power than singles because there is less slippage.   You might have come up on something. ;D :D

Minnesota_boy

I want my customers to remember me for the quality and the low price I charge.  I don't need any gimmicks.  ;D

I've seen tractor pulls where the big ones run 2 engines, but I think the work that goes into making them work together may make that combo a tough one to make work out.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Fla._Deadheader

A while back, on the other side of the fence, there was a thread about 2 chainsaw engines on 1 bar??? Never know ::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Tom

There's already a precedent for the engineering.  they put multiple engines on Ultra lights and run a centrifugal clutch on the second with a belt to the first and drive the plane with one prop. That's kinda what you'd have to do with a sawmill. The clutch makes it so you only have to start one engine.  That engine starts the other one  Getting them to pull equally might be a challenge. :P

Don P

I visited a circle mill that ran 2- 40 hp 3 phase motors, he said it worked great.
There was a little tablesaw in the back of a pickup at the local store the other week. Not only 2 motors...one behind the other. they were different speeds and pulleyed to compensate.

D._Frederick

EZ,
Your idea of using to gas engines won't work, they will fight each other like two tom cats in a sack. The governor   characteristic of each engine will be different, so they will not respond to change of load the same. This will result in the engines surging, one engine throttle wide open with the other one closed, then the other engine wide open. The only way two engines will work together is if they have only one governor. So save your $$$.

woodhaven

EZ,
You could add 50 16 H.P. engines to it and you would still only have 16 H.P. What you would have is a very strong 16 H.P. I would have to go into the engineering side of this to really explain. This holds true no matter if its gas or electric or whatever. Increasing your H.P. that way only increases your torq not the total H.P.
 In other words 16 H.P. plus 16H.P. equals 16 H.P.
 Maybe twice the torq but only 16 H.P. total
Richard

Steve

I once worked on a tug boat that had four  671 JImmy diesels driving one propeller shaft through a gear box.
Two pair of two inline engines all working together.

Steve
Hawaiian Hardwoods Direct
www.curlykoa.com

IndyIan

My guess is that you could get it to work, there are lots of applications of dual motors around, even race cars!  

In theory you should have twice as much torque at a given rpm and therefore have twice the hp.  
I think airvane govenors would still work as they are dependent on rpm, not load.
I would make sure the engines both run and are tuned equally well when used individually.  One strong engine and one weak one might end up equaling one mediocre one if your not careful.

An advantage is that you have to have 2 engines down to be forced to quit sawing!  Disadvantage is that you have to maintain two engines...  Post pics if you do it!

Ian


dail_h

  I once saw an old frick mill that had two IH deisels,one ud9,the second a ud6. They were belted together through the balance wheel. When the 9 slowed down,the 6 would pick it up.      A sawing fool
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

EZ

I was talking to a guy today and he said it can be done, BUT.
First I would need 2 electronic tack meters, he said I could get them pretty cheep, $40.00 a piece. ::) If the governers would be working against each other, then I would have to unhook them and watch the tacks so that they would be running the same rpm. As if I dont have anything else to do when sawing. Unbeleaveable, I cant beleave there aint a simple way to do this. :( :-/ :o
EZ

duke401

back in the good old days we used [two 440 chy.or 428 fords] twins on irr wells. we run them off of how much vacume they were pulling. since we just went with bigger moters not as much hassel keeping one running. we had less invested with twins but more repair expence. it can be done, if there is a will there is a way
duke

Percy

Well EZ,
Im no engineer so I cant help you with the guzzintas on this idea but if you wanna have two engines, why not have another sawhead right behind or infront of the one you already got with your second motor running it, youd cut two boards in one pass so youd be twice as fast. ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Paul_H

Woodhaven,
I wish you would explain why it wouldn't increase horsepower.I don't know much about it,but if I had one horse hooked up to pull a log and he couldn't budge it,another horse just might do the job.

I would think that I had two horses pulling.The same thing in my mind as an engine with 8 cyl as opposed to a single.

Keep in mind,I'm asking,not argueing. ;)
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Dave_Fullmer

I saw two steam engines running a mill one time at a show in Clarksville, Mich.  The funny thing that has always puzzled me was the positioned the engines  facing each other.  I would have thought that there would be a rotation problem.

Just thought of why this would work while I was writing it.  They must have twisted one belt and not the other.  Don't know why I never thought of that before.  

Any way, Would the torgue, Hp question be the same as gasoline engines?  I do know that steam has Immediate torque as it begins to rotate.

Just trying to stir the pot.
Dave
If it aint Orange (AC that is) it won't run.

Bro. Noble

Dave,

Steam engines can run backward so you wouldn't even have to twist the belt on either one.
milking and logging and sawing and milking

woodhaven

Ok I will try to make this make sense.
Lets say you have a horse the 4 legged kind.
The horse can run lets say 60 mph.
The horse can also pull a 1000 lb load.
Know lets say you need to pull a 2000 lb load.
One horse alone can"t do it so you add another horse.
Now you can pull the 2000 lb's
But the second horse is just like the first horse and can run 60 mph.
Both horses side by side are still running only 60 mph but can pull the heaver load.

You could have a 100 horses side by side all running 60 mph and all had the same Horse Power say 100. You would have a 100 horses running 60 mph not 1000 Horse Power.What you would have with the 100 horses is the power to rip hell apart.
Richard

woodmills1

well I was gonna try to stay quiet.

power = work / time      or

         =force x distance / time   or

          = force x velocity

so to use the example above if one horse pulls one log so far in a certain amount of time that is so much power.  Now that one log will offer a certain amount of resistance due to its weight and friction so that is a certain amount of force.  Now I understand that a horse can only move so fast but when a second horse is used to move another log there is now twice the required force so if same distance and time, 2 times force gives 2 times power.

lets look at it from  power = force x velocity
again if the force doubles even if velocity stays constant then power doubles.

when power is increased either more work is done in same time or same work is done in less time.  Now since for the horse example max speed is set then time should be considered constant and for that matter probably distance also.  so the only variable that can change is force.

on my sawmill with 24 horse things like belt speed and hyd pump speed are set.  So I might not get much more with a bigger motor.  But a motor with more power could be equipped with devices that would make use of that power.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

D._Frederick

If we were talking about a 2 cylinder engines of 16 hp and then added another engine an connected there crankshafts together, we would have doubled the displacement. Would not this have doubled the horsepower? Anyway, the physics book shows that: 1 hp= 33000 ft-lb/min. So when we add another engine, we are adding to the 33000 ft-lbs and are increasing the horsepower.

raycon

Twin outboards powered boats advertise there HP as the sum of the two motors not one?

Double the torque with all else remaining equal double the HP...in theory.

Lot of stuff..

woodhaven

I think several of us have said exactly the same thing. Only in differant words. Probably what is a little confusing is the differance between Power and Horse Power.
 Lets look at a little differant. All of us have used a cant hook. So if you are using a 3 foot cant hook to turn a log. Do think it would make any differance if you used a dozen 3 foot cant hooks? No! But go to a 5 foot hook and it gets easier.
Richard

Neil_B

It would if you had a dozen guys using those cant hooks  ;D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

woodhaven

I think the only way we can settle this is for all of us to meet somewhere and take 2 engines a hand full of pulleys a couple of logs and play a while.

Oh I forget
And a  6 pak.
Richard

EZ

This is what I mean about one engine(16hp) saws fine with say 14 and 16 inch logs. But with a 30 inch log it is really slow sawing, so with two 16 hp motors I would have more power(torque). My motor rpm is 3600, two 16 hp motors I will still have 3600 rpm but more power.
EZ

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