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Painful Question

Started by reberly, February 27, 2011, 04:48:20 PM

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reberly

I had a woodworker ask me a painful question today the I feel obligated to share.  He asked "How do you know that you're not causing ecological damage tranporting insects, fungus, or diseases on your portable wood or mill?"  I felt I should share the question to further awareness.  My response was that I use borates and timbor in my mill lubrications system.  It may be hard on the blades and bearings, but I used my own wood to build my home and would want nothing less for those who work my wood.  I manage a green tag certified forest and I can think of nothing worse than destroying someone elses forest.  I also kiln wood that kills the bugs and fungus.  Other than spraying timbor, what can we do about green stock for turners?
Rich
http://Eberlywoods.com

Big lumber is our legacy

Ron Wenrich

You can wax turning wood.  That should kill the bugs and fungus (no oxygen).  If you sell KD wood, then that kills the bugs and fungus. 

Green wood would carry the insects or disease.  Often the insects are under the bark, and munching on the cambial layer.  Debarking would take care of that.  We sent some ash to Pakistan that had to be entirely bark free. 

You can also pick up some hitchhikers on your portable operations.  Pieces of bark, caterpillars, egg masses and the like.  Probably pretty hard to be 100% certain.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

tyb525

I think that might be a little nit picky.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Chuck White

At the end of each sawing day, I use a gas-powered leaf blower and clean the mill from top to bottom, and end to end!

At the end of each job, I do pretty much the same thing, only in much more detail.

I saw 100% mobile and I don't want to be the one to transport insects or disease to someone elses forest.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

isawlogs


Tyb525
      I don't think so .. the Asain bug and most of those invasives got here probably on a pallet , Why would it not be able to ride a mill a few hundre miles and then a truck for a bit .. first thing you know its in someone elses back yard chewing away  ???  Pounder that some .
   We need be a lot better at taking care of how we do our business with trees if trees we want for the futur  :P
I clean my mill off when ever I finish a job , I do not fumigate it but do clean it off before heading down the road.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Kansas

Be careful what you wish for. Green hardwood lumber and logs are transported all over this country. We send walnut logs to Wisconsin. Some to Missouri. Same with other logs. I am trying to get cottonwood lumber in from wherever I can find it. Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa. They are already talking about making lumber go through the heat treatment process between here and Canada. And that is not the same as kiln drying. That requires being inspected every month, plus occasional inspections from the feds, computer printouts of the heat, etc.  I know all about it; I have to have a heat chamber for companies that ship overseas. There has been noise about making it mandatory between states. That is going to knock the hell out of interstate commerce on hardwoods, especially on low end product such as pallets or pallet lumber.

isawlogs

 I don't wish this , but we do need to be very carefull with our trees. Wont take much to wipe them out if we keep letting little critters come in and do all this carnage.  :-\
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Tom

I suggest that everybody lock themselves in their car, roll up the windows and sit in their driveway while the world destructs.

I'll have to remember this the next time I need something else to worry about.

DanG

Kansas, what is the basic rule for heat treating?  Just wondering how hot, how long, etc. :P
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

tyb525

What I meant, is I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be when you're talking about the area a mill usually travels...usually within a state or an area of a few small states.

If you were talking about importing from other countries, that's a whole different ball game, and I definitely agree about being ery careful about that. That's where all our problems have come from.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Shotgun

A huge part of the problem is the transportation of round wood, including firewood. People are quick to  complain about new pests in their area, or potential new pests, and yet they're usually not willing to abide by the rules.  Moving firewood is bad news at any time.
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

red oaks lumber

 if you want to really  do something effective then your cloths have be changed,your shoes any sawmill tool,the pitch build up on blades ect. your work site would have to be operating room sterile. is that going to happen? no.
the wood contamination is being spread via camp fire wood, bark sold as "mulch" any portable mill travels in a very small raduis compared to the flight of any invasive insects.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

jim king

This is a start with this but just google "ISP15" and you will see more than you want.  I cannot ship any wood that the pallets are not treated but you can pile anything that will ,hold together on the pallet and it does not have to be inspected.

QuoteKansas, what is the basic rule for heat treating?  Just wondering how hot, how long, etc

http://www.prpallets.com/Heat-Treated-Pallets-ISPM15.html

tyb525

Also collect and contain all exhaust fumes from your mill and truck ::)
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

reberly

Great responses all.  I actually started thinking about piping the exhaust from the mill through the tarped lumber that comes off the mill to kill critters.  Maybe alittle too far, but fun to think about.  I want any good ideas I can get.
Rich
http://Eberlywoods.com

Big lumber is our legacy

Tom

You should have no problems with transporting sawed lumber, in most cases, unless you are going from a quarantined area to a non-quarantined area.  In this case, you will probably already have heard the news, either by reading the paper or reading the Forestry Forum.   (assuming that y'all keep the information current)

Tell your customer that you have a sign on your sawmill that reads.  "Occupation of space on this sawmill of unwanted insects, disease and bioforms is not wanted and will be delt with by the sawyer in a severe manner."  It works the same as the Government's "Deer Crossing" signs.   You just have to make sure that the insects and stuff can read.

You may ask him if his insects can fly? :)

bugdust

Since GP shut the local OSB plant down all scrap is being trucked to Covington, VA. Obviouly neither state is concerned so why should I be?
Since I retired I really like work: It fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.

Kansas

Dan, here is the procedure. You have to drill holes in the skids/pallets. Put the probes in. Pack sawdust around them, or something like it. You have to get the heat up to 142 degrees and hold it for 30 minutes. You can get by with slightly less heat, but you have to pay to have your chamber certified that there are no cold areas in it. That is expensive, and not worth it for us. After 30 minutes, the computer spits out a piece of paper. Also, there is deal that goes from that computer into the office and prints out all the temp reports. You have to figure out all the bd ft of what you did. Once a month, the regional inspector comes around. There are a number of certifying agencies. I happen to use Missouri Forest Products Association. They provide the stamps and the inspection services. It costs about 360 a month to have the inspection done. Then you have the federal inspector. They have only shown up once. Been expecting them anytime again. You have to stamp each pallet or skid on opposite sides with the heat treating stamp that specifies what facility heat treated them, and who the certifying agency is.

I usually treat on Sundays. I need some downtime at work to do computer work, and Sunday is the best day to do it. Probably won't be bothered by inspectors either. I fired it up around noon today. Got it all done about 4.00 My unit is what I would term the "trailer park" version of a heat system. Its an old reefer unit. There are two big salamander type units running off of propane to heat it. Two stainless steel fans moving heat inside. I don't always stay there during the treatment. It is all computer controlled.

Tom

There is that 'certification" word again  I wonder if you can sell wood if you don't have a computer?  There are meters that read the temperature internally, so, why couldn't you just write the information on a piece of paper in case someone wants to see it?  Oh!  I guess they don't trust you.  Who is "they", anyway?  :)

Kansas

Forgot to add a couple of things. Some pallet companies get lumber in that is already stamped. They don't need a treatment chamber, but still need to be audited, same as me, and apply a final stamp. Usually thats pine out of Canada or the Southern USA. Also, once a pallet is heat treated, providing no boards are replaced, it can be reused again and again as a heat treated pallet. The pallet recyclers usually add a little bit to the cost of pallets for pulling out the ones that have been heat treated when they resell those to someone needing heat treated pallets. Doesn't matter what country they were treated in. The stamp is good for life. Also, virtually no bark is allowed on pallets, and absolutely none on any pallets going to Australia. At one point, you could not even have wane going to Aus, but they backed off that finally and just said no bark. If you have a customer that is using dunnage, that is a separate stamp. We do 2x4's for a company. We have to stamp them every 18 inches. Stamping is a bigger pain in the rear than the heat treatment for hardwoods. If someone at work pithes me off they are likely to find themselves out stamping pallets. Its a lot easier for the pine companies, being their lumber is all planed. That is all set up with automatic stamping devices.

beenthere

Quote from: reberly on February 27, 2011, 08:43:12 PM
Great responses all.  I actually started thinking about piping the exhaust from the mill through the tarped lumber that comes off the mill to kill critters.  Maybe alittle too far, but fun to think about.  I want any good ideas I can get.
Rich


Rich
Toss a bug bomb in that enclosed trailer you haul wood in before closing it up. That should take care of some or all of any hidden critters. :)  I can understand where you would be concerned.



south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kansas

Tom, I remember when all this started. The EU was pushing it. Now we did have restrictions before that. China would not allow pine to be used, hence we got our start in the skid business using cottonwood. I think the EU at that time was using it as a way to try and limit imports. Crazy part is, the first pallets showing up with heat treatment stamps were from 3rd world countries. Yeah, right. They were the first to have all the computer stuff. It is, in my opinion, a total joke. But, you have to play the game. This is all international regulations. Yet each country implements its own controls. There is virtually no country that you can ship to now that does not enforce it.

When the earthquake at Haiti hit, we had to scramble to make some skids for attachments for Caterpillar to unload the airplanes at the airport. I guess what was there was destroyed. Those attachments were air freighted in, probably with the equipment to unload as well. I would think the last thing those people would have been worried about was bugs. Didn't matter. We dropped everything and heat treated a couple of big skids.

deutz4

I agree with Tom. We start pulling our hair out over a problem we didn't start and we can't control. EAB came from overseas just as the zebra mussel,asian carp and other invasives. We can ban firewood movement, force people to bleach their boats, and use other "green guilt" tactics to make people believe they are making a difference but once they are here they will spread whether on your mill or the wind. We can't ship ash into the U.P. So we will be hurt financially for the next decade while the borer simply goes around Lake Michigan into Wisconsin. About the only plus I see is that we keep a whole bureucracy alive in Washington studying the effects and distributing payments to the victims.

Kansas

One more thing I forgot. At this time, methyl bromide is still allowed to be used. It must be used by a certified applicator. Then he stamps the pallets. We did use this at one point in the early days. Its expensive. And its very close to being pulled off the market.

This really isn't the United State's fault. I don't think they were pushing it, but I do know the National Hardwood Lumber Association jumped on the bandwagon early. They had about the first auditing service, and probably do more auditing than anyone. Its a moneymaker for them. But again, same thing. You gotta play the game. The next nearest heat treatment chamber from us is Kansas city, about 90 miles away. As such, we have some pallet companies bring in pallets to have custom heat treated. All they can do is pass the cost on.

Ron Wenrich

I remember when the gypsy moth was pretty well contained to a small corner of NE PA.  It wasn't advancing too quickly, and the state could keep up with it.  Then, all of a sudden it jumped 100 miles.  Cause:  campers.  Someone was camping in the area, and the egg mass attached to the RV.

We might not be able to stop things, but we can slow them down.  It took a really long time for the Dutch elm disease to make it out of New England and a long time for the Chestnut blight to effect the entire range.  Even the gypsy moth took a relatively long time to make it through the range.

Compare that to the EAB.  Substantially quicker.  The state of PA went from a non-quarantine state to nearly all quarantine in a matter of a few years.  We had islands of infestation form, and they were hundreds of miles apart. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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