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Cutting groove for drawer bottom.

Started by Dave Shepard, February 12, 2011, 06:37:57 PM

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Dave Shepard

Any advice? MUST be a hand tool. I've looked at small plough planes, the Record #44 I think. Rob Cosman offers a non-adjustable wooden plane. I've also been looking at a Lie-Nielsen Larger Router plane. Not sure which direction I should go.
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Holmes

I was taught back saw and chisel back when we had Shop.  Holmes
Think like a farmer.

pigman

I use my hand to turn on my table saw, does that count? :-\
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

SwampDonkey

I would use a fine toothed Japanese Dozuki and make a homemade depth stop. Then use either a shoulder plane (Lee Valley sells 1/2" to  1-1/4" widths) or a detail rabbit plane (Lee Valley sells 1/4"-3/8" widths). Pricey planes, but will last a long time. A routing plane that they sell would work to.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 12, 2011, 06:37:57 PM
Any advice? MUST be a hand tool. I've looked at small plough planes, the Record #44 I think. Rob Cosman offers a non-adjustable wooden plane. I've also been looking at a Lie-Nielsen Larger Router plane. Not sure which direction I should go.

Not to get too technical here, but for the sake of clarity, the drawer bottom would fall into a groove (which goes along the grain), not a dado (which goes across the grain). The best tool for this job is definitely the plow plane. The Record #44 is an excellent choice for small grooves. I have an antique wooden plow plane that I use for the task. It is a little finicky to set up, but once it's set it does a quick and accurate job. I have found that I get a cleaner cut if I first define the edges of the groove with a cutting guage. The first few passes have a tendency to leave a ragged cut if the grain isn't perfectly straight.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

As Dodgey pointed out, the plow plane would be a good choice to for the narrow bottom grooves since it is often a longer section than most saws. Was thinking of the back grooves/daddoes for some reason.

I like the Veritas hand tools I guess, not made in Taiwan. Can't be beaten. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jamesamd

A router,with a fence if you dont have a table saw.
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

Dave Shepard

Thanks for the clarification Dodgy. There is a complete in box #44 at the hardware store. I also see them and the Stanley #50 on Ebay. The hardware store also has a couple of wooden grooving planes as well, but only the depth is adjustable. I think I'd like a plow over a wooden one, as the I may need to change the width, and offset of the groove.

Donk, I like a lot of the Veritas tools, but for some reason all of the planes, whether bench, block or plow, all have an odd aesthetic about them. The Lie-Nielsen planes are just Stanley tools, updated with better quality materials and workmanship. Maybe it's just the familiarity of the Stanley tools that I like.
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SwampDonkey

I have two Stanley Planes and I can't plane anything with any decency. Frustrating as all get out. Just me I guess. :D ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Dave, what do you put on your steel to clean your tools. Wax? Anything with carbide tends to rust with sawdust laying on them, like router bits and some chisels. One of the reasons to make cabinets to keep stuff clean and dust free in storage instead of just laying about. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

I haven't been putting anything on them, although I did get a bottle of camellia oil from L-N with the Dovetail saw. The tools I use everyday don't get rusty, but ones that may sit for a few months will get a hint of rust on them. I just hit them with 0000 steel wool. I do have trouble with long term storage of some tools, so I'm in the process of scaling up my cabinet making skills and tools. I want to build a decent tool cabinet. So far I have the Dovetail saw, Veritas 1:6, 1:8, and saddle squares, Tite-Mark micro adjust marking gauge as well as bench chisels, set squares etc. The only thing I don't have, which I think is critical, is a proper bench. I may have to take my Workmate to work and clamp it to the shop bench to hold small stuff. Using an anchorbeam tenon only goes so far. :D

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SwampDonkey

Yeah cabinets are a must. I have limited space compared to you, so I have to make shallower wall cabinets work. I would like to build some drawers to tuck away drills, routers, sanders, skill saw. But I will have to keep it off the floor because of moisture in the warmer seasons. If I hadn't already placed an order at Lee Valley, I woulda looked at their metal tool oils or whatever. Chisels I can run on a my honing wheel, but then need something to rub on that won't evaporate quick.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 13, 2011, 05:04:27 PM
Thanks for the clarification Dodgy. There is a complete in box #44 at the hardware store. I also see them and the Stanley #50 on Ebay. The hardware store also has a couple of wooden grooving planes as well, but only the depth is adjustable. I think I'd like a plow over a wooden one, as the I may need to change the width, and offset of the groove.

I don't think you understand, Dave. What I use is a wooden plow plane. What do you think woodworkers used before metal planes became commonplace in the late 1800s ???

The depth of cut is adjustable, the distance that the groove can be cut from the edge of the board is adjustable, and the width of the groove is adjustable (I have 6 blades ranging from 1/16" to 1/2"). It is every bit as versatile as a metal plow plane, it just takes a bit more finesse to adjust properly.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

I fully understand what you are talking about. I was saying that I would prefer the #44 style of plough (plow) over the much simpler wooden grooving plane. There are a couple of wooden plough planes at the store as well.
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woodsy

Have you considered the Stanley #46?  The skewed cutters make it a pretty versatile work horse for dados, grooves, rabbets, etc. Flacon-Wood might have one.
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jamesamd

Sorry Dave,I missed the "hand tool only" stipulation :-[
Were it Me,I would get a Veritas #6 Fore Plane (expensive) buy an extra blade,grind a tooth to the rquired width/depth and use a clamped straightedge to locate the groove.Gentle taps to increase the cut,untill,You reach Your need.
The router planes,seem impossiable to Me.
Jim


All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

Dave Shepard

That is an interesting idea. I have a lot of planes and extra irons, I might give it a try sometime. The hand tool stipulation has many reasons, one of them being I don't have a 500' extension cord. :D I've been studying different types of planes for this job, and I think it will be some type of plough plane, when the time comes.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

jamesamd

My Son gave Me these for Christmas 

   http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=64808&cat=1,41182,48945

They will clean up grooves but are useless for real wood removal but I won't tell Him that,I'll wait untill He borrows them and let Him find out through experience (the hard way) :D

Jim
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

SwampDonkey

I'm not sure that you used them in the proper way. They only make fine cuts not like big chips coming from a block plane. I believe the shoulder of the narrow grooves have to be sawed before using them or to smooth up a chiseled groove afterward.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

I was given a wooden plough plane today. It's only got one iron, about 5/8" or so wide. I guess I'll have to make one narrow for what I need. Does anyone know how these planes would have been finished? I'm going to clean the dust off of it, for now, but didn't know if it should be oiled or not. I'll get a pic of it up. I'm guessing that the only way to get a new iron is to make it or cut the original down (not my idea) in the mill?
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SwampDonkey

Show a picture of the blade, maybe it can be ordered instead of ruining an existing blade. Is this a real old plane or a modern one?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

woodsy

If it's an older plane those irons are everywhere.  Have you checked with Falcon Wood in Sheffield, Mass for spares/other sizes?  They probably have complete sets.
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Dodgy Loner

I would just try waxing the plane with a little paste wax. And you can pick up old plow plane irons pretty cheap. I got 6 of different sizes for $1 apiece. Generally they are around $5 apiece, I was pretty lucky to find them at that price.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Dave Shepard

It looks like it's a pretty old plane, not new for sure. E & T Ring, Worthington, MS

Iron is about 5/8" tapering from 1/8" to about 3/8". I saw many lots of plough plane irons on ebay, but wasn't sure if they would interchange. I guess the important thing is the taper of the iron. I guess if I bought a set, I could make a new wedge just for that set. The plane looks to be in good condition. There are a few chips in the threads, and the left side of the closer adjusting knob in the first picture is chipped.

Woodsy, Sheffield is ten minutes from me. I will definitely have to get in touch with them. Many interesting tools on their website. Thanks.

I don't have my camera in the house, so I used my cell phone, which isn't great in low light.



The mouldings on the fence are very well made. It's almost like looking at a fancy fireplace mantle.

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Dave Shepard

I went back to Ebay, and those lots of irons all look about the same shape. I'm going to get in touch with Falcon Wood and see if I can find something locally. If not, I'll take a chance on a set from Ebay. First, I'm going to put an edge on this iron and try it out tomorrow. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dodgy Loner

All the plow plane irons I picked up are different brands, but they all seem to work with my plane. I've only sharpened and used two of them so far, but they all have about the same taper and the same groove running down the back.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

The Veritas Honing and Sharpening jig comes in handy for keeping the primary and micro-bevel on the upside and back bevel on the underside of the blade as it was meant to be from the manufacturer. The jig comes with various angles and a knob on the side can adjust the bevel 1 - 2 ° if needed. Need a water stone as well to sharpen (800-1000 narrow blades <2", 250 for wide blades), then a finer grit (8000) to hone. You might even need to use that 1000 or a little coarser to lap that old blade (make it dead flat on it's belly). Just something to think about. If the micro-bevel is honed to a glass shine it will cut a lot nicer. ;) I just received mine and put a shine on a new chisel (said it would need honing, doesn't come honed). Works nice.  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

I have the Veritas MKII jig. In fact, I took it to the job with me today so I could catch up on some sharpening while the brush fire was burning. Not much to do after all the junk is piled on but wait for 4:30. :D I polished the back and then worked on the front. The angle on the front must have been about 28°, and hand sharpened. I couldn't find a corresponding hole on the registration jig, so I just moved the iron back about an 1/8" for the micro bevel. When I got back to the shop, I set the iron in the plane and put a groove in a pine board I had laying there. The groove was pretty clean. Didn't score the groove, that might help with just a little tear out I had on the edges. Bottom had a little chatter, but I think that will go away when I get a chance to play with the setup. I know more than put that groove in then I got a text saying out hay trucker was having some trouble. Apparently the bridges on the NY Thruway are a little less than 15' tall(or whatever four layers on a step deck add up too). :o More fiddling and fettling tomorrow.  :)
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SwampDonkey

You probably know all this stuff anyway Dave, because it's in the booklet with the jig. But, I'll type it anyway. :D

Yellow color code (Standard Angles) on the reg. jig and set to yellow position (2) on the blade carrier. Find the yellow coded 25° on the reg. jig, then one hole to the right, then pull out the micro-bevel knob and turn the indicator to 3 O'clock (to the front). That gives you 28° (see the back of your booklet). Is there a back bevel on them knives? With a back bevel you increase the cutting angle to easier cut figured woods and oaks. Just a 1/32" depth should be made or increasing this will cut bigger chips. Use the green (3) coded position on the blade carrier and marked green coded angles on the reg. jig. You probably don't want to go higher than 20 ° according to their recommendation.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

When I flattened the back I didn't notice any back bevel. Iron is laminated. I tried getting one of the screws out to see if it had a point or was blunt, but it didn't want to come out. I wonder how old it is. From what I saw of the one groove I had time to cut, I think this thing is going to be a lot of fun to use.
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SwampDonkey

Yeah, was just asking. Don't see any back bevel on the Veritas plow plane either.

Got any rust reaper to soak on that  screw?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

No, I don't. How would that react with the wood? I think if I get a good well dressed screwdriver I can get it out.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

SwampDonkey

Don't know how it would react against wood. It's not an oil in the sense of chain oil or 3-in-1 oil. The man to ask would be Mike himself. Link to contact info is somewhere on the Index page.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

woodsy

As dodgy loner alluded to, the irons on these plow planes are interchangeable.  I don't ever recall having an iron or a set of irons that didn't fit any other plow plane, no matter the manufacture of either. If you find a satisfactory deal on one or a set I wouldn't worry too much about them not fitting. I believe Highland Hardware sells replicas but they are bit pricey.
LT40HDG38, Logrite T36 log arch, 42 hp Kubota, 6 foot cross cut saw, lots of axes and not enough time

Dave Shepard

I picked up a plane at a tag sale this weekend. I don't know if it's specific to either grooving or dado, or will do both, but I tried it on a dado. I did sharpen it, but otherwise it is in great, ready to use condition. I think I need to sharpen the nickers. The close side of the dado is cut very cleanly, while the far side has some damage. $12  ;D

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beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dave Shepard

I think I took the link location while I was still editing the pic. All better now. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

SwampDonkey

Could have used a fine tooth Japanese saw to cut the width lines, then used the plane to take the innards out to depth. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

True, but it does have nickers on the front, right at the leading edge or the iron "shoe". I played with the adjustments a little today and got it cutting better. It also works very well parallel to the grain. I'm not sure it's appropriate to groove a drawer side with this, but if you did, and you could, how would you kerf the groove if it is 24" long with a saw?
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SwampDonkey

You would then use your plane to work with the grain, as you found out it works better that way. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

It works well across the grain, I just have to fine tune it so it's nicking properly on both sides. The one side of the cut looks like it was done on a table saw, very smooth.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

SwampDonkey

Well, work at it. Then you'll know a whole lot more about it. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dave Shepard

I bought a Stanley No. 50 plow plane, or maybe it's a plough plane, it's made in England. :D Complete in box with all the cutters and fences etc. 8) Can't wait to try it out. I had to recreate some t and g flooring for a lighthouse restoration two weeks ago. A real pain on the table saw, but I bet it would have been easy with this plane.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

SwampDonkey

I just bought a Veritas left handed block plain today. I saw how the left handed one was set up and it seems to me it would be steadier to hold for a right handed person the way it's set up. ;D It has a wooden fence. I have my eye on a shoulder plane as well. I've never been disappointed by Veritas tools. Comes with A2 hard steel blade. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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