question for guys skidding with tractors

[oldbones]

will chains on the front improve my traction much?

i've got a 40 hp jd 4wd compact tractor. it gets around fine, except for this time of year, when the snow gets deeper. i've got typical vermont terrain, a bunch of up and down, and i was thinking a set of chains on the front might make a difference?

chains would be cheaper than a buying bigger machine, which of course is the preferred option.

[lumberjack48]

If you have enough power, chains and weight on the front will make her pull, but then you start breaking stuff.
If under warranty, chains on the front might void it, just a thought.

[tyb525]

It depends on how you skid your logs. If you attach your load so that the pull is below the rear axle, it will put more weight on the front and then yes, tire chains will improve traction, especially while turning.

If the front end gets light when you skid logs, then they won't do much for you, and you ought to consider changing the way you attach your load to eliminate that.

[dsgsr]

Do you already have chains on the rear? Putting chains on the front of these more modern compact tractors is not a good Idea. The front ends aren't built strong enough for heavy pulling. If you put chains on the front try not to use 4wd, if you have to use 4wd make sure you don't shock the front end. Just a slow easy pull.

David

[g_man]

The front ends aren't built strong enough for heavy pulling. If you put chains on the front try not to use 4wd, if you have to use 4wd make sure you don't shock the front end. Just a slow easy pull.

David

Thats a key point. If the fronts are spinning then the chains suddenly grab the shock to the small front end components can be devestating.

[oldbones]

thanks. front chains sound dicey. perhaps a more aggressive set of of chains on the rear is would do the trick.

[dsgsr]

This yr. with the deep snow I've been tempted to put chains on the front of my 48hp compact JD, but just can't afford a breakdown. I have single diamond Ice chains on the rear but should have Canadian rings on, another thing I can't afford this yr. Thats the woes of logging with a tractor, you just can't push it too hard. You gotta remember it's a tractor not a skidder or bulldozer.


David

[GDinMaine]

I have used chains on the front of my tractor but only when the snow gets deep.  There is no place where it will get a sudden grip.   It still slips in the snow  but not quite that much.  You can get more aggressive chains for the rear and use the split breaks to aid with steering.

[lumberjack48]

 Better chains on back, and hang some weight on the front would make feel more stable when pulling.

[rick f]

I have used chains on the front of my tractor but only when the snow gets deep.  There is no place where it will get a sudden grip.   It still slips in the snow  but not quite that much.  You can get more aggressive chains for the rear and use the split breaks to aid with steering.

Good Luck with that .  When the front tires are spinning on ice and it goes sideways onto a stump, you may just find that sudden grip. 

[GDinMaine]

If you go looking for trouble you can always find some.

[madmari]

My tractor had the front end all welded back together before the chains came off. It's tempting to put chains on, but as stated earlier- the front axles are not built for that torture.
I found that if I  adjusted the load lower, I was ok. If the front got light, I could steer with the rear brakes, but keep the rpm's up.
  I f you stay within the capabilities of the tractor, front chains probably won't help that much. Just my thoughts; Learn from my errors. Those axle parts are not very rugged, but priced like they are.

[Maine372]

'somthings got to give'

remember that. do you want it to be the front tires spinning or somthing more expensive. i logged with a 40ph deere (see post around page 88 of the timber harvest methods thread). i ran chains on the back, and they werent very agressive. just enough to get some bite on the ice.

another tractor logger in my area has an 80hp deere. he loads everything with his forks and also does work around the farm with the same machine. he runs chains on the front only. since he does alot of forklift and bucket work they help him more up there. but the back tires are bare.

somwhere between the motor and the ground there has to be a weak link. id rather it be somthing cheap.

[Peter Drouin]

With 3' of snow I just stop loging. with my JD 5410. and at 56 walking in 3'. then shoveling out the tree :D :D.most of my cutting is done.Ill wait till spring. :D :D

[tyb525]

It's nice when you cut a tree and the branches disappear under the snow...till it melts ;D

I cut several loads of firewood a few days ago, only to find that I couldn't get the trailer up the one steep hill, too icy. I could get up it with the tractor only, but not the loaded trailer :. I had to dump the firewood in a pile. Guess I'll get it later :

[oldbones]

i'm just cutting on my own woodlot, so am free of pressure to produce. i do most of my cutting in the winter to take advantage of frozen ground.  at the moment i've got a bunch of tops still in the woods from two truckloads of sawlogs my son and i cut in january. i got some out yesterday, but it was a slog. after last night's snow, i didn't even try today.

we're still hoping to get a load of pine cut this year. it's pretty level going to get to the pine, so we may get it done. if not, they'll be there for us next year.

[GDinMaine]

O.K. You guys are officially scaring me.  I will not put chains on the fronts next time.  I make it a point to stay out of the rough as I don't have the time or the $ to get the tractor fixed.   May be I have been lucky over the past few years but I will stop gambling.  :P Live and learn (from others)

Luckily I finished my firewood cutting just as the second big snowstorm was rolling in in mid-January.  Now I just have to wait a couple of months so I can get to the log piles.

[thecfarm]

GDinMaine,what are you running for a tractor in the woods,HP size? I see you are thinking about making a winch.Using just chains for now twitching the logs out?I just play around getting firewood for the OWB.

[GDinMaine]

I don't do more then play either.  I run a 30hp Kubota that weighs around 2800-3000lbs.  So.  I need all the help I can get.  I'm using a rope to pull the logs to the logging road and then chain to to a frame I built for the 3 point hitch. It is time consuming and frustrating at times.  I really want to build a winch so I can reduce damage to the roads especially in softer areas and make logging a bit easier.   I would call my woods operation a hobby but I really depend on the wood for heat. 

[thecfarm]

My Father and me use to use a NAA 1945 Ford in the woods some. I was the Chain Man.Than in '93 my Father wanted to cut some pine.We bought a 2120 Ford,40hp,4wd with a Norse winch.Than I was the Cable Man.We died and went to heaven.What a treat to use.We should of bought all that 20 years ago.I can understand the time and frustration at times. But with the old Ford it was just fire wood.Than we started to cut for real,payments.A winch will and does make it so much easier.Saves ALOT of work and ALOT of time.Now it's really a life saver with snow in the woods.I can winch things to me, or winch myself out of a mess I got myself into.

[GDinMaine]

Sounds like you have a nice setup.  With your mill some of that can be turned into good building material.  I want to cut some pine too but to have it sawed up and put down as floor boards in my old farm house.  I have not cut any yet because I want to be able to pull decent length logs so the boards will run wall-to-wall.  Usually the big battle is to get them to the tractor. When I get the winch done I will give that a try.  With firewood it does not matter, if it's too heavy for my machine I just cut the logs shorter. 

[Maine372]

GDinmaine, theres a farmi winch on maine craigslist. just fyi.

[GDinMaine]

Thank you for the heads up, but I will not be getting that.  I was very close to buying a new 6500lb pull Igland winch (they market them as Norse too) from a guy in New Hampshire for around $2300-2400.  Then I saw this wrecker winch on Craig's and the light went off in my head about the Forestryforum.  This is where I have read about winches converted to tractor PTO.  When all said and done I think I will spend around $500-550.   That is my hope anyway.  
Call me cheap and I will agree.  

[woodmills1]

I have a Kioti DK40se and a metavic with log loader and winch

I am in the house not the woods


why should I plow my woods road..................


note to others    cut OWB or other firewood november or before

[rick f]

Nope, I'll cut my firewood now so I can split it with a maul. With all the frost in it it splits easy.

[woodmills1]

but without the snow it burns better       :D

[rick f]

It will be plenty dry by the time I use it next winter. :D

[bill m]

Go ahead and get the chains for the front of your tractor. You are on snow and there is some give to it so you should not have any problems with the front axle. These are the chains I run on my tractor.

[thecfarm]

woodmills,I am cutting before November......2011 November.  ;)  Just gets me out of the house.All summer long I do things on my land I can not do when it's buried under a 2 feet of snow. I like geting outside just about every day off.I just pack the snow down on my woods road,just about like a snowmobile trail now.Just made another path into a place I want to cut.Starting on next year wood.When I can start digging the chainsaw will be put away.

[woodmills1]

good for you

I was just pushin joshin

I worked so hard the last few years I am glad to have a few daytime movie days this winter

[oldbones]

bill m,

what kind of chains are those? where did you get them?

thanx in advance

[isawlogs]

Go with the chains, as Bill said , you are on snow it is so much easier to get around with the chains. Those front ends are not made of popcorn  : ;)

[bill m]

Rear chains from Labonville, front chains from Global Forestry Supply.

[JDeere]

Rear chains from Labonville, front chains from Global Forestry Supply.

http://www.globalforestrysupply.com/  Good guys to do business with. They seem to work hard to give you the best price.

[oldbones]

would those studded chains pose any problems plowing snow off the drive? it's 4/10 mi of gravel.

i assume the drive would increase wear compared to traveling on woods roads, but otherwise i'm guessing they'd work fine.

[Shetland Sheepdog]

I plow all the time with ice chains, even on hot top! Just don't spin the wheels, and it'll be fine!
HTH, Dave

[dsgsr]

Just wanted to show some pic's of my Tractor logging.











David

[Stephen Alford]

   Hey oldbones I run chains just on the front, forestry tire specials on the back. I like the chains on the front because I can see when a limb or stick gets caught in them. They are just old 10 hundred truck chains ,fit fine. Not many guys carry chains anymore, the three sets I have were all given to me. I have to take them on and off a lot and on the front it is just so easy to do.  The tractor is 65 Hp , at that size there was reduced tax when it was bought. The limiting factor is the skid plate underneath when the snow gets to deep she will get hung up.
    dsgr that is a really nice setup.

[logman81]

dsgsr nice setup I like the grapple, I have a similar setup to it.

[oldbones]

that grapple is sweet. where's a guy get one of those?

[dsgsr]

Thanks folks. The Grapple is an Addington Equipment grapple/rake. Addington is located in NH.
http://www.addingtonequipment.com/  Hopefully they're still in business, quality equipment IMO.

David

[bill m]

would those studded chains pose any problems plowing snow off the drive? it's 4/10 mi of gravel.

i assume the drive would increase wear compared to traveling on woods roads, but otherwise i'm guessing they'd work fine.

If they are good chains I don't think they will wear out. This is a picture of my front chains - 6 weeks old.


And this is a picture of my rear chains - 8 years old

[LorenB]

If you attach your load so that the pull is below the rear axle, it will put more weight on the front...

This is a fallacy that seems to be widely believed.  A tractor with enough traction and enough torque can still tip over backwards even if you attach the load below the axle. 

[tyb525]

No. That is physically impossible, even if you could find a tractor with unlimited traction and unlimited torque. In the rare even that the tractor gets so incredibly much traction that the front end lifts up, it will never be able to tip over backwards completely.

Here is an excerpt from the Nation Ag Safety Database, written by Dennis J. Murphy, from Pennsylvania State.

"When the front end of the tractor lifts, the rear drawbar of the tractor will lower. This is a function of tractor geometry. The higher the front end raises, the lower the rear drawbar is driven. As the drawbar lowers, the angle of pull and the leverage the load has to tip a tractor rearward is also lowered. By design, a load will always lose its ability to tip a tractor rearward before the tractors CG reaches the rear stability baseline. As the load loses its ability to continue to tip he tractor rearward, the front end falls back to the ground. If the tractor operator doesn't stop the pulling action, the entire process will repeat itself, resulting in a bouncing of the tractor's front end."

Here is a link to the rest of the research article: http://nasdonline.org/document/906/d000746/tractor-overturn-hazards.html

Note this article is not trying to disprove anything, it is simply stating the facts.

[beenthere]

If you attach your load so that the pull is below the rear axle, it will put more weight on the front...

This is a fallacy that seems to be widely believed.  A tractor with enough traction and enough torque can still tip over backwards even if you attach the load below the axle.  

Tyb525 is right in a practical world. (and good response)
Might be a fallacy in the theoretical world, but the likelihood of ever getting that "enough" traction and torque isn't likely to happen.   IMO  ;D

[LorenB]

What TYB525 says is correct.  I hadn't taken into account the fact that as the tractor tips the drawbar attachment point gets lower.  At some point it will be too low to provide enough pull to tip the tractor. 

I suspect that it's possible for the tractor to build up enough rotational momentum to keep on going in spite of the reduced tipping moment, but not likely.  Also, the tipping would be more pronounced if the tractor were already pulling uphill, but that's also another matter. 

I also agree with beenthere that if a pulling force is attached low enough there is no way that a tractor would be able to develop enough traction to tip.  The tires would just slip.  The momentum issue could still be a factor in this scenario too, though. 

In light of what TYB525 says, it behooves those of us who pull with a tractor (like I do) to be aware that if the load is not attached to the drawbar, then the attachment point may not be forced downward as the front of the tractor rises.  If, for example, you attach the load directly to the rear axle, the tractor could tip.  As long as the attachment point is extended to the rear of the tractor, as it is for the drawbar or something on the 3-point hitch, then the likelihood of tipping is greatly reduced. 

Thanks for the heads-up on the drawbar issue.  Good point. 

Having said all that, it's still untrue that attaching a pulling load below the axle increases the downward force on the front of the tractor. 

[shinnlinger]

I will add thought that that skidding with a plate, blade or some other object mounted on a 3pt in front of the logs, the chances of catching or hanging a log are slim to nill.  Using discipline to keep it under a buck20 and keeping your hand on the 3pt control helps too...

[g_man]

I don't know what "can" and "can't" happen when your skidding out logs. But I do know you best be paying attention to everything because all kinds of stuff "does" happen. It is the surprises that will get you.
In my limited experience going over sideways seems more likely than going over backwards if you are using reasonable equipment and methods.

[pineywoods]

Unless you are running a belarus tractor, the 3 pt won't keep you from tipping over backwards. On most tractors there is no down force on the 3 pt arms, just lift. Belarus is different. Just for the record, I skid with a kubota. Be careful, keep foot on clutch, go slow.

[treefarmer87]

the 5310 i used was a good sized tractor, it does not take muck to come up on two wheels i have pulled good size tree length poplar with mine

[tyb525]

I definitely agree that you must be careful skidding logs with a tractor, and you cannot allow your attention to lapse

[woodmills1]

I taught physics for years



tractors tip over


when we had an earlier thread about why and how they tip I got all the people I know that are into theoretical physics together to try to figue the problem as a paper type problem


too many variables


take the post above that says when the hitch point is low  as the front rises the point of attachment gets lower so the wheels will just spin


as the point gets lower the load on the tires gets higher so spinning is less likly


we as a group agreed that tractor tipping is not a theoretical problem it is a real problem with so many variables  that we finished with



TRACTORS CAN AND WILL TIP OVER

sometimes easily    down load side load      turns   snags     bad equipment
operator error     speed       incline   traction or not



so  be carefull and pay attention as said many above




DanG  even skidders tip over