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Grooving the back of hardwood flooring

Started by Tullivor, February 04, 2011, 11:56:00 PM

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Tullivor

Hey all
I have 350 bf of maple to make into tongue and groove flooring.  The boards are 8 - 10 feet in length, about 1" thick rough both sides, and 4 inches wide.  This is a first time project for me.  I work in the kitchen business so have experience with woodworking.  The first step I am going to do tomorrow is plane it down so I have good 2 sides keeping it as thick as possible, I hope to have 3\4 when done but I think it will end up being lighter.  Then I plan to get a straight edge on all my boards, so hopefully I have atleast 3 inches of face before tongueing it.  After that I was thinking I should put 2 round 1/8 deep grooves in the back, then running it all through the shaper doing the tongue edges first, groove second.  And after I have all that done I was thinking I would put it all through the drum sander and sand the face with 220 grit.  I do not have to put a finish on it, the person I am doing it for will do the installing and finishing.
Well that's my plan but like I said I have never made my own flooring before so I really have no idea if I am going about it in the right way?  What are the grooves in the back for, air or cupping or something else?  Do I need them?  I am also having a hard time finding tongue and groove flooring bits for a shaper using 3/4, 1, or 1 1/4 inch spindles that are not way overly priced?  I mean I do not want to have to put the car up for sale just to afford tongue and groove bits for 350 feet of flooring!!!!!! :D
Thanks for any input you can offer
Jeff

terrifictimbersllc

http://www.amanatool.com/shaper/flooring-shapercutters.html

http://www.amazon.com/Amana-SC450-Flooring-Nail-Slot/dp/B00286RLP6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1296896060&sr=8-1

Not too bad $165 for amana flooring with nail slot cutter.   Think of Amana as high quality, been happy with their router bits.   Don't know what the back relief is for, I've heard it's to save weight on shipping flooring (!!).
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Lud

Might be a tracking groove for automated manufacturing/finishing machinery. ???
Simplicity mill, Ford 1957 Golden Jubilee 841 Powermaster, 40x60 bankbarn, left-handed

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dodgy Loner

Good luck with the project! It sounds as if you're going about it the right way. Just one question: Why would you go through the trouble of drum sanding the wood? The installer will have to sand the floors heavily once it's installed to level it up. I would skip this step if I were you.

FWIW, I have made wood floors for a bedroom (cherry) and a kitchen (white oak). I used T&G bits on a router table, not a shaper, and they only cost me about $70. As far as the grooves on the underside, I just left them out, and it hasn't been a problem. The cherry floor has been installed for almost 5 years. The white oak is in its first year. Time will tell if it was a mistake to omit them, but I'm pretty confident it won't be an issue :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

Quote from: Tullivor on February 04, 2011, 11:56:00 PM
Hey all
I have 350 bf of maple to make into tongue and groove flooring.  The boards are 8 - 10 feet in length, about 1" thick rough both sides, and 4 inches wide.  This is a first time project for me.  I work in the kitchen business so have experience with woodworking.  The first step I am going to do tomorrow is plane it down so I have good 2 sides keeping it as thick as possible, I hope to have 3\4 when done but I think it will end up being lighter.  Then I plan to get a straight edge on all my boards, so hopefully I have atleast 3 inches of face before tongueing it.  After that I was thinking I should put 2 round 1/8 deep grooves in the back, then running it all through the shaper doing the tongue edges first, groove second.  And after I have all that done I was thinking I would put it all through the drum sander and sand the face with 220 grit.  I do not have to put a finish on it, the person I am doing it for will do the installing and finishing.
Well that's my plan but like I said I have never made my own flooring before so I really have no idea if I am going about it in the right way?  What are the grooves in the back for, air or cupping or something else?  Do I need them?  I am also having a hard time finding tongue and groove flooring bits for a shaper using 3/4, 1, or 1 1/4 inch spindles that are not way overly priced?  I mean I do not want to have to put the car up for sale just to afford tongue and groove bits for 350 feet of flooring!!!!!! :D
Thanks for any input you can offer
Jeff

Jeff (Tullivor)
Looks like you have a good plan on your steps. I too would skip the sanding unless you want the square edges rounded a bit after you lay the floor (some like this soft groove).

My only suggestion would be to do the individual steps as close (timewise) to each as you can. Much time delay between the steps will allow the stacked boards to change slightly in moisture content and will move some. This could cause some frustration, such as joining an edge straight only to find out a day or week later that edge isn't straight anymore when you are running the T&G.
When a flooring machine is used (like a 5 head moulder), all the machining is done at one time.
If you can set up to plane, then run the jointer for straight edge, rip to width, and then run the T&G as soon as possible, your risk of warping between steps will me minimized. I would say the backside groove would be optional too, but could be a later and last step.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

I would V-groove it, but probably not a biggy unless it's old uneven floors. I have an old farm house here with floors that are far from even. These old buildings move from neglect and earth quakes. This place dropped 2" on one end is a big quake. The grooving will also help against cupping if the flooring isn't real dry. As beenthere says, the dimensions will change a bit in drying. Even planing a piece can change the piece in a few hours by exposing less dry wood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

8'-10' long is really long for flooring, especially at only 4" wide and still rough sawn.  From the very first step of planing the lumber, you will have to over machine much of it to take out defect along 10'.  You will save good material for each step if it's shortened up a bit from the start. ;)

How much area do you need to cover?
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Dodgy Loner

MS - That's an excellent point about the length of the wood. My white oak floor came from a log that was 7' long. I think my longest board that I actually installed was only 5' long. I didn't have many full-length boards after cutting out all the defects, but those that I did have I cut in half to make them easier to handle. I felt that 3-4' in length was an excellent compromise between ease of handling and speed of processing and installation.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Yes, that is a good point MS, 3 or 4 feet is the max I would deal with to.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tullivor

Thanks everybody
Well this flooring is actually for my "likely" father in law some day!  He cut the trees down and had it milled and dried.  The area he has to do Is only 10 x 20 so there is extra, which will come in handy in the future I am sure.
The house it is going in is really old, lots of ups and downs so maybe the stress reliefs in the back would benefit.
I understand what you mean MS about the defect and over machining such long lengths.  I was actually very impressed at how consistent the thickness and quality of the wood was, my first pass through the planer touched wood on nearly everything.  The other problem with me cutting shorter lengths is that when I run the wood through my planer, the first and last 5-8 inches is wasted because the two pressure rollers have not both made contact with the wood leaving deep gouges and different thickness, so that is wasted on every piece I put through.  I do absolutely see what you are saying though and it would make sense on most equipment I'm guessing but my planer is a little ancient!!!  But runs like a dream!
Dodgy, good call on the not needing to sand yet, that was maybe a wasted step, I guess I was hoping that it would not need sanded after it was laid down.  I think if I run all my boards face down through the T&G, everything should be pretty well the same thickness from the face to the groove/tongue..... does that make sense??  In my head it works, but could be a different story when I go to do it!! That's why I appreciate all this advice though, because you never know what step you might forget about.  This website is amazing, how you can interact with people from around the world who have had experience they are willing to share.
And beenthere, I have everything done, just tongue and groove and grooving the backside left to do.  I have to find a good T&G bit and as soon as I do I will get it done, I Am really hoping everything stays straight.  I could not believe how straight everything was after ripping it, not one binded on me.  I had left it climatizing in the shop for a couple months and I think that helped lots.

SwampDonkey

Tullivor, sanding isn't required after install. You can buy prefinished flooring and install it without sanding or applying a finish. I know several homes around here, mine, uncles' mother's and neighbors' that refuse to have all the mess of sanding and the smell of finish all through the house. So go ahead and sand it in the shop, do you have a sanding machine with depth setting, run each piece through same depth. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

beenthere

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 08, 2011, 07:08:47 AM
Tullivor, sanding isn't required after install. You can buy prefinished flooring and install it without sanding or applying a finish. I know several homes around here, mine, uncles' mother's and neighbors' that refuse to have all the mess of sanding and the smell of finish all through the house. So go ahead and sand it in the shop, do you have a sanding machine with depth setting, run each piece through same depth. ;)

SD
I think you are giving Tullivor some questionable advice on the "go ahead and sand it".
But will let Tullivor sort that out with the tools and expectations he has.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

The key is to have machinery to sand at a set depth, running a free handed belt sander over the surface is not the same process. And of course it has to have been dried good (6-8%) as some folks who have installed it have recommended.

Other than that, I fail to see it being questionable advice when thousands of feet of the stuff are installed that have all been pre-sanded and finished out of the box ready to lay down. Of course after letting acclimate in the room before install. Some folks just don't want that dust all over their house. It's not an easy nor pleasant job to remove it. You can drape plastic around the room threshholds to control it some, it's still a mess. It ends up on ceiling and walls and windows like a magnet.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Norm

If I had it to do over I would have run my flooring through my belt sander to make it all the same thickness before installation. Would have saved me a bunch of time running the floor sander over it.

Tullivor

The drum sander is 36" wide and automatic feed.  You can set a depth anywhere from 12" to 1/16" if you like and it is very consistent.  It took about an hour and a half to run 2 passes through so I hope it was worth my time, I guess time will tell  :D. 
Shaper cutters are very expensive, and the only ones I can find do not have the tapered edge and nail slot.  Do I need to worry to much about having that type of tongue and groove bit or will any straight edge do?

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Unless you are absolutely confident in your ability to get the tongues and grooves in the boards at a perfectly consistent distance from the top of the boards, then you should expect to sand the floor after installation. Most of the unevenness in the floor after it is laid comes from the T&G being slightly inconsistent, not from the planer producing an inconsistent thickness. The factories that produce prefinished flooring have much more sophisticated equipment than I do to get it right. I have found it to be pretty much impossible to do well enough to make sanding prior to installation realistic. Just some food for thought.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

metalspinner

QuoteThe factories that produce prefinished flooring have much more sophisticated equipment than I do to get it right.

The micro-bevel on the prefinished stuff helps quite a bit, too. ;)
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Tullivor

ya it would be nice to have a very little v edge to make the uneveness less noticeable.  SwampDonkey, Do those bits fit onto a shaper?

Norm

You will absolutely still have to sand after installation but not nearly as much if it's pre-sanded. If you use a shaper with power feed like I did the t&g is very consistent if set up right. Actually better than most that I have bought from those with the moulders that do huge runs.

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