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gearmatic winch

Started by treefarmer, January 30, 2011, 09:13:37 AM

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treefarmer

I have a gearmatic model 8A on my skidder, just had it all torn down and rebuilt. Winch works fine but I can't get the brake to hold the load. Tried tightening adjuster spring but no luck. Any suggestions?

mad murdock

If the band is not oil soaked, or brake fluid soaked, it should hold, unless it is worn down and needs a re-lining.  Look up John Woodworth, though he is on the opposite side of the country than you, he has a ton of experience with the older gearmatics and could give you some good pointers.  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,44818.40.html
hope youget it sorted out.  I have an 8A on my machine as well, it needs a good relining and general sprucing up.  I know the 8A was rated as an 8,000 ob winch, but it sure seamed alot stronger than the JD3315 winch that a friend of mine has on his 350B, which I think JD rated at maybe 15,000?
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mr T

Brake cylinder working ok ?

H60 Hawk Pilot

That was my thought too. You said the winch was rebuilt so.. gut wise you should be Ok.

My Gear-a-matic was on a IHC TD-340 (1965) dozer and worked 100%. Has 1,834 hours on it and still going strong. The hdy. control lever handle  has 3 actions. Forward is released ... and free wheeling of drum. Handle straight up is locked and drum is locked-in for dragging load. Handled held back >> Drum is engaged and >> Winching.  I only mentioned the 3 Hdy actions to get on board with the gearamatic on your JD.  Does the 8A work like 9A winch ?

If your hdy. control's are leaking off and/ or not appling sufficient pressure and/ or proper (band) internal adjustment... I can see how the drum would feed out when dragging under load.

Does the hdy. control seem different to you now ?  Does it feel  Spongee like... like a bad master cyl. on a car or truck ? You may need to rebuild or replace the hdy. control head and / or control cyl. inside the winch housing. Perhaps..  just a few O-rings or hdy. pucks are involved and your all fixed up. I'm thinking Hdy control probems based on the fact that the winch was just rebuilt and should Not be worn out inside.   

Again, I don't have a JD and my model was 9A (I think) but recall the winch operation modes. I had to work on the hdy. control part twice to fix my winch. The problem was leaking lines and easy to see my hdy. leakage problem.  I fixed the leaks and bleed the sys. and worked 100%.

Good Luck and Always Check the Basic Stuff 1st (if it ain't really broke.. don't fix) :D .
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

treefarmer

This winch is on an old CannCar skidder. Brake cylinder seems to work just fine. The winch will haul in the load the same as it did before it was rebuilt. When lever is locked up it is in freewheel and drops the load. When the handle is down it will winch and is suppose to hold load when clutch is pushed in. There is a band on the outside of the drum that is exposed enough to see and the spring is fully compressed on this band. For some reason the spring is being held down and it can't push the brake band up enough to lock into position. It doesn't even try to hold, as a matter of fact it won't even hold the trees up to the control arm before I take off. It just drops them back on the ground when I push the clutch in.

Thanks for the info on John Woodworth too I'll give a try

H60 Hawk Pilot

I see said.. the blind man.

I have a better understanding of your winch problem. Did the winch work correctly from day one when it was just rebuilt and installed ?

If Not, then the winch appear's to be Not Set Up Correctly, perhaps just adjustment, or pin has dropped out of the linkage and on & on.

If the winch did work Ok from day one of the last rebuild...  then you have something broken inside or a pin dropped out or something happened along these lines.

All (best) guessing , let me know.
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

treefarmer

The winch was rebuilt last summer and hasn't worked since I put it back on the skidder. I assumed an adjustment problem as well..but the brake band spring cannot be tightened anymore. This is what is confusing. Also the winch was previously saturated with brake fluid from leaks and wouldn't hold the load anymore and that is why I rebuilt it. If I let it sit over the summer the winch would hold again for about 6 trips and then the bands would saturate and quit working again.

H60 Hawk Pilot

Did you try Brake Clean or other super cleaning solvents to clean up the leakage ? Why was the brake band getting soaked so much... must be a hell of a leak and still happenng .. do you think so ?

Avery
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

treefarmer

The winch was leaking inside the cover where the brake cylinders are on the drum. Now there is no leaks it has been sandblasted and all parts worn were replaced. Now there are no leaks its just not activating the brake to hold the load up after winching.

Nate

H60 Hawk Pilot

I got you now.

Is this sand blasted surface super shiny and very smooth from the previous slippage ?

However, I'm leaning toward something broken or a pin slipped out or something bent or sprung inside. Also, do you have the proper adjustment on you control lever and travel on both sides to get full range of travel ?

Avery
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

treefarmer

The lever locks in freewheel position. When unlocked it will not winch unless you apply pressure down on lever. How do I adjust the throw of the lever? There is a gear like shaft with grooves where the control lever connects. This could be adjusted to create a different throw.

lumberjack48

Don't change that, thats not your problem
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

H60 Hawk Pilot

Tree Farmer


My Hdy. Control is different than you on the 91 and your a 8A.

I'm all Hdy. and No External Linkage or Adjustment.

Both the 8A & 9A have some shared design features.

I don't have the 9A operator manual in front of me and will work from memory. If I get wrong.. I will get corrected and don't mind a bit. The Hdy. control feeds into the center of the (A and I'm fullly enclosed with no open areas.

When I go rear ward on my Hdy. Control .. I apply pressure to the brake shoes on the inside of the drum and winch in-ward (turn the drum spool).  The Live drive line is turning when the engine is running but nothing happens until the Hdy. Pressure applies force on the inside of the drum to lock the drum up and spool in-ward.

My 9A, when I push my Hdy. Control forward.. it release the outside Holding Brake band on the outside of the drum and put's the spool drum in the Free Spool Mode. My 9A Winch  does it one way or the other...  Spool In-ward.. with Hdy. pressure applied to the Inside shoes and the Outside band is released for Spolling.  Free wheel mode, outside Band is Relesed and Winch drum is free to turn with the Outside Band Released. You should see a slight gap seen between the band and surface where it applies pressure to it.

My Best Guess on your 8A, when lever and linkage controls are pressed down... it tightens up the internal (inside) shoes and turns the winch drum. When this lever is moved this direction... >> the outside band is released through the linkage and your winching in-ward. When you release the pressure on the lever and go to the off postion or hold postion.. the inward brake bands back off and the outside bands tighten and does this (both) at the same time (if adjusted properly).

The fact that your external band is adjusted as tight as it can be... does not make sense to me. Recheck that this band adjustment and that's getting the correct travel and nothing is broke and jammed. You can see yours (external holding band)and I can't see mine on the model 9A (all enclosed).

If it won't hold.. the problem should be right in front of eyes. You can see the external band, it's band shoes and setting (control) linkage.


Avery       
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

dixmont

take the brake cylinder off and see if it holds its possible the master control is holding pressure or the cylinder is put together wrong the winch should hold without the cylinder on it the only thing the cylinder does is release the brake

John Woodworth

Seems like two to three times a year people with this same complaint and I've responded to, what you need to do is burnish the brake band, there is nothing else wrong with the winch, you saw it was just rebuilt. Hook your mainline to  a stump and pull against it while feathering the brake control, pull the length of your drum line and the drum in, let it cool down and try it for holding, generaly doing this a couple times will do the job.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

H60 Hawk Pilot

Tree Farmer

Mr. John Woodworth is Hitting Nail on the Head.

I was asking (in my 2nd post to you) you the same thing when I asked you if the surface was super shinny and very smooth from previous slipping.

John is telling you to Burnish the Drum Surface by draging you back and applying the brake on & off to burnish the drum up. Currently.. it's so sliky smooth.. the brake lining does Not have enough bite to hold it. From what John said, it may take a couple >> in & out's << to get it Burnished Up. It may take a cool down period as well... if it gets too hot. You don't want to over heat this surface area and damage the new lining in the process. 

Avery

   
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

madmari

Try to raise Mr. T from Maine; he's on the forum. He is knowledgeable on 8a's. Real nice guy.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

John Woodworth

This is out of the Geamatic manual - Brake will not hold - If the winch is new, the brake may require a "run in" - Attach the winch cable to a stump and drive the tractor away from the stump using low gear. Allow the brake to slip enough to let the tractor move forward until all the cable has been run out from the drum. Tepeat this operation until the tractor has traveled a total of 300 ft. under these conditions. Allow the winch to cool and check the holding power of the brake. Repeat if necessary.


Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

lumberjack48

 Its the same as putting new disk brakes on a car, your supposed to ride'em a little bit to get them seat'in in.

I had to drive my line out 2,3 times every morning on my model 119 greamatic, before the brake would hold, basically the same winch just bigger. 
I used model 9's and 20's same trouble, they get damp, they should be covered at night, the bands get slimy substance on them.

If the winch just didn't want to hold, I'd pop the side cover off the winch, and give the band a shot with a fire extinguisher, fixed it right up. I learned this out west when i was running rigging behind a slide bar D8 up in the Yak.


Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

treefarmer

First of all, thanks for all for all of the help out there guys

I did see the run in process in the manual and I will give that a try today. Hopefully that works.

With regards to "dixmont" the second thing I did when the problem arose was take apart the master cylinder that holds down pressure on the brake band to release it assuming it was together wrong. It might have been caught on one of the edges but not sure, put it back together and same result. First I tried tightening the adjuster spring to its max. I will try removing the cylinder all together and let the spring push up on the band and check that too after I run it in.

John Woodworth

I can just about assure you none of the things mentioned by others is the problem as they have no bearing , one thing be sure to re-adjust the brake band, I believe you said you tightened it down, loosen it up some and after you burnish the band then re-adjust. from manual - Turn in brake adjusting nut until approx. 1.5" of nut protrudes outside the casepump mastercylinder to be sure all air is out of the system, place mastercontrol handel in full release, turn in brake adjusting nut until spring is totaly compressed, back off adjusting nut two complete turns.

If you try to realease band with the spring too tight it will either damage the control unit of bend the push push rod from sylinder down to the band.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

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