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Ok. Low cost alternatives to Central Boiler

Started by Just Me, January 29, 2011, 06:48:32 PM

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darnet


red oaks lumber

like any other study that has ever been done .the numbers will support the side that is spending the most money to get a posative  result. you as a doctor know that better than anyone. aka eggs are bad no wait they are good. ect.
there is no question that gassers are the wave of the future so, for now let the debate continue.........
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

doctorb

red oaks-

Point well taken.  I can't tell you how many studies I have seen funded by orthopaedic implant manufacturers or drug companies that, given the constraints as to how the study was performed, could not have had any other outcome as the one that was designed by the company that would benefit from that outcome!  Astute of you, I might say, and wise.

Specific to our discussion, the counter argument may be evident.  NESCAUM took emissions data from the manufacturers themselves of the available 2004 stoves for their initial report.  They did not perform the testing independently.  The problem, as there was no standardization of the methods utilized, became reproduciibility and accuracy of the testing.  Because the particulate matter data was so variable comparing furnace to furnace, and so widespread in scope, that legal arguments cropped up regarding the interpretation of the data between some of the companies and NESCAUM (including CB, I might add).  NESCAUM's interpretation of the data was, and they state such, that the manufacturers knew about the emissions data, that their interpretation of the data was incorrect, and that they continued to produce their products in spite of it.

There is no question that you and I want the same destination here.  A little truth in performance would help, and a reproducible, reliable furnace that does what we need it to do with a minimized environmental impact is the goal.  We both have to agree that we ain't there yet.  Non-gassers have a recorded ease of use, longevity, and a reliable performance record.  Gassers pollute much less, require increased routine furnace maintenance not needed on non-gassers, and have an improved enviromental footprint.  We need the marraige of convenience and performance.  So as you say, let the debate continue...it's a healthy exercise, IMHO!  Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

tonto

This is the most info I have ever seen on this issue. Lots of great info, for and against. I agree every one's situation is different and the original poster is is trying to get all the info he can from actual users. I have a CB5036 and it has done me just fine. It will pay for its self in four years, was using oil $2000 a year - only two to go. The key to the least amount of smoke is definitely well seasoned hardwood. I fill it once a day at night and get 24 hour burn time even if it's 5 degrees out. Burn mine all year, 85 feet from my house - 75 feet from 2 neighbors houses and no complaints of smoke. I did a lot of homework as to where to place the boiler for the best smoke direction. Neighboring towns have had some difficulties with people burning garbage and one even burning with out a chimney - he is trying to ruin it for everyone. Tonto.
Stihl MS441 & Husqvarna 562XP. CB5036 Polaris Sportsman 700 X2. Don't spend nearly enough time in the woods.

Just Me

Quote from: doctorb on January 30, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Just me-

If you are going to only heat during the day, and permit the shop to cool considerably at night, I might sugggest you shy away from radiant floor heating.  While it's a great way to heat, and I have some in my house, it's not a quick way to heat.  IMHO, you will need FHA or hotwater baseboard to bring the shop up to warm when you want it warm.


I have infloor heat in my current house, and it does not always have to be slow. Mine is tubing in aprox. 1 1/2" of drypack concrete over insulation with tile on top throughout the whole house. It is very fast to heat up, faster than my last house with baseboard heat, about 15 minutes to bring it up from 55* to comfortable. The reasons for this are twofold, one, my heated mass is relitively light weight being just 1 1/2" thick, and two, I do not have floor coverings that impede heat transfer. The tile are a good conductor.

I have built houses where they let fashion rather than heat transfer rate dictate the covering over the tubing, and they used lightcrete instead of concrete, which is not quite as good either. In these cases the warmup was slow.

The one problem I do have with infloor is that it doesn't cool down fast enough. In the spring and fall when the outside air temp fluctuates from freezing at night to 50*+ in the daytime it gets too hot in the house even though the heater has not run since morning. The thermal mass of the infloor just holds heat too long. We use the fireplace to take off the chill in the evening many days and leave the heat at a lower setting than normal.

In the shop I will have to have at least 3", probably 4" over the styrofoam as I will be running a forklift on the concrete, so you may be right there, lowering the heat may not make much difference with that much mass heated up. I am not worried about it being a little cool in the morning for a bit, but I doubt that the floor will cool down all that much. At 4" thick the mass of the floor would be 82,586 pounds, a lot to warm up and cool down.

I wish I could use the radiant tube heaters. They are very efficient, not at all expensive, but what they do to wood that is under them makes them not at all practical in a wood shop. They will cup a board in ten minutes. Fip it over and in ten minutes its cupped the other way. I tried them. :(

I checked out that outsidewoodheater. I would not pay that much for that, and if you look closely at the pictures, it sure looks to be a 55 gallon drum inside the unit. The fabrication was second rate, and that is the units they are showing you. I don't see $1500 there. Maybe $250. you could make a more efficient one aerodynamically by using a small grease barrel inside a oil barrel and build it yourself with a barrelstove door kit and a fan forcing air through the gap between. Would cost about $100 to build and probably work better.

Thanks to everyone for their information, the more I hear/read the better decision I can make.

Just Me

Quote from: forest on February 03, 2011, 05:47:11 PM
I had a regulare Classic for many years and was pleased with the performance. It required very little maintenance and the cost worked out to about fifteen hundred dollars a year in a climate that is considerable north of you. The cost inclueds the capital and wood used over the life time of the stove. That was when the stove was approx 5000 but there are certainly regular OWB for not much more than that today. I put wood in two times a day and in the really cold weather three, and removed the ashes once every month or so. Wood over time becomes the larger expense if you are like me and have to purchase the wood that I burn. That has got me looking at the new gassifier type stoves. I feel that by saving a couple of cords or more a year I will more than make up for the extra cost of one of these stoves. The other reason is the smaller eviromental footprint that these stoves have, which is important to me in these days when we can see the impact that we have on our enviroment.

My brother in law has a classic [3-4 years old]and the local dealer just called him and offered him 5K on trade in on a new E-Classic. Not sure what that deal was but is something you may want to ask you local dealer about.

bull

Check out NewYork Wood Boilers, I've had mine for 18 years without any major issues..... It is an indoor unit, uses about 4 cord of 18 " seasoned wood annually to heat 1200 Sq Ft also hotwater..... I do have Oil back up, When I get lazy....
New unit can be delivered for under $3000.oo

My brother has a 2300 eclassic --- to much work and you have to go out in the cold and weather to deal with it...... no thanks..... I can deal with my boiler in my birthday suit if I have too........

doctorb

Just Me-

Interesting stuff on the in-floor heating.  Mine is set in concrete with a brick floor on top.  I can easily see where I got my perspective of it being too slow as compared to your experience.  It does take a while for it to cool.

When I first started using the OWB and the radiant heat, I was concerned how much energy this cost me.  I just have one zone of radiant floor heat.  The temp of the water going through the pipes is diluted down to about 125 degrees through a remixing loop.  The rest of the effluent water from the radiant system goes back to my indoor oil furnace for reheating via the OWB and heat exchangeer.  My concern is that this outflow water from the radiant heat is about 100 - 110 degrees.  My OWB comes in at over 180, and the temps in my indoor boiler jacket stay around 180.  So I was concerned that the radiant heat, through the necessity to decrease the temps in the loops to prevent cracking of the concrete floor, actually introduced a lot of "cool" water back into my furnace jacket, and thus demanded more heat energy from the OWB to maintain temps.

This was verified by the temps of the water returning back to the outdoor furnace.  Without the radiant heat on, those return temps run between 175 and 180 degrees.  When the radiant loop kicks in, those temps drop into the 164 to 168 range.  So I am sending cooler water back to my stove, which requires more heat to bring it back up to the 185 - 195 range to which my stove is set.

However, once up to temp, it's nice heat in that area of my house, so I stopped worrying about it and it costs me some extra wood.  So be it!   Doctorb
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

red oaks lumber

at my sons house (in floor heat)i have the stove temp set at 160 deg. the water coming back to the stove is still 140 deg. my feeling is why have the water hotter just to cool it down to use it, all you are doing is  burning more wood.his house is a slab on grade,with 7 heat zones in the floor. once the slab is up to temp in the fall he turns the flow values up, so the water is running thru the tubes quicker so the water going back to the stove is hotter tha tif you run it slower and pull more heat off the water.
as to running in floor in a shop enviroment. i don't think for the money its worth it. i mwould use a high out put heatexchanger you allready  have the stove so, the added cost is minimal... my own thoughts
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Holmes

Red oaks you are correct about turning the boiler down to 160* for the radiant heating system. For every 3* you lower the water temp.
you have the potential for 1% savings on fuel, so you can be saving 8%.
   Just me,  Radiant heating the shop will not be that expensive and it will be the best way to heat it, even if you keep it cooler most of the time. All you will need is about 2100 ft. of tubing ( spaced 12" on center) ,an 8 loop manifold, mixing valve, t stat , a circulator,  the insulation and wire mesh . You are going to poor a new floor anyway. If you radiant heat the house also you will be able to run your outside boiler at a lower temp if you want.  The overshooting of radiant heat on a warm day can be slowed down by better insulation . At least r19 in the walls and r40 for the roof.
   Now all you need is a great boiler to do the job.  Keep in mind that all of these discussions on outdoor boilers are in reality  research and development for the boiler companies. They can not duplicate how you me and the next guy use the boilers day in and day out. I believe they are getting closer each year. We are already hearing how people really like the 2400 boiler. Maybe next years boiler wiil be the one.   Holmes
Think like a farmer.

doctorb

I agree with lowering the boiler water temp to save money, if you heat entirely with radiant floor heat.  The majority of my house is zoned hot water baseboard.  That issue has come up here before without resolution, but my plumber likes 180 degree water in those pipes.  Hence, the OWB delivers that temp to my basement.  As only one of my heating zones is radiant and is not a highly trafficked area, I choose to use the radiant heat on an as needed basis.  I am open to other suggestions regarding this problem.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Holmes

 doctorb  Your original heating system was designed for 180* water so your plumber is correct in wanting that temp. If you want to save some on fuel it is best to do it during warmer temps. like above 25*f and turn your boiler temp down 20*. Over time, along time you will get a savings.  It sounds to me like you have a well installed heating system. Your time spent to get your boiler working properly has been a benefit to everyone wanting to get, have,or use an outdoor boiler. People can not make an educated decision without being educatedand these discussions are a great education. Holmes
Think like a farmer.

Just Me

Quote from: doctorb on February 06, 2011, 09:03:12 AM
Just Me-

Interesting stuff on the in-floor heating.  Mine is set in concrete with a brick floor on top.  I can easily see where I got my perspective of it being too slow as compared to your experience.  It does take a while for it to cool.

When I first started using the OWB and the radiant heat, I was concerned how much energy this cost me.  I just have one zone of radiant floor heat.  The temp of the water going through the pipes is diluted down to about 125 degrees through a remixing loop.  The rest of the effluent water from the radiant system goes back to my indoor oil furnace for reheating via the OWB and heat exchangeer.  My concern is that this outflow water from the radiant heat is about 100 - 110 degrees.  My OWB comes in at over 180, and the temps in my indoor boiler jacket stay around 180.  So I was concerned that the radiant heat, through the necessity to decrease the temps in the loops to prevent cracking of the concrete floor, actually introduced a lot of "cool" water back into my furnace jacket, and thus demanded more heat energy from the OWB to maintain temps.

This was verified by the temps of the water returning back to the outdoor furnace.  Without the radiant heat on, those return temps run between 175 and 180 degrees.  When the radiant loop kicks in, those temps drop into the 164 to 168 range.  So I am sending cooler water back to my stove, which requires more heat to bring it back up to the 185 - 195 range to which my stove is set.

However, once up to temp, it's nice heat in that area of my house, so I stopped worrying about it and it costs me some extra wood.  So be it!   Doctorb

All of that heat that was lost, was lost inside your house. If it was being lost outside then it would be a problem. Its just that your infloor is much more efficient at pulling the heat out of the water in the amount of time it is traveling through the exchange medium, the infloor being a longer path. I can't see that you would be using any more wood, its just that the heat is now stored in the mass of the floor inside the house. Not lost, just diverted temporarily.

Any loss it would seem to me is that the OWB is keeping 300 gallons of water hot outside where any loss is direct to the atmosphere where there is no gain in the living space. I'm curious how many BTUs are lost from the boiler itself.

That is one of the advantages of the compact gas boilers. They are so fast that hardly any water at all is stored in the boiler. The one in my house here heats my hot water and the infloor and it is the size of a carry on bag. {Before the rules changes >:(}. So on standby it is keeping less than 5 gallons hot. Don't really see the need for the huge reservoir? Who cares if it takes a bit longer to warm up? Is it to protect the fire box? Don't know.....

Just Me

Quote from: Holmes on February 06, 2011, 01:02:33 PM
   Just me,  Radiant heating the shop will not be that expensive and it will be the best way to heat it, even if you keep it cooler most of the time. All you will need is about 2100 ft. of tubing ( spaced 12" on center) ,an 8 loop manifold, mixing valve, t stat , a circulator,  the insulation and wire mesh . You are going to poor a new floor anyway. If you radiant heat the house also you will be able to run your outside boiler at a lower temp if you want.  The overshooting of radiant heat on a warm day can be slowed down by better insulation . At least r19 in the walls and r40 for the roof.
   Now all you need is a great boiler to do the job.  Keep in mind that all of these discussions on outdoor boilers are in reality  research and development for the boiler companies. They can not duplicate how you me and the next guy use the boilers day in and day out. I believe they are getting closer each year. We are already hearing how people really like the 2400 boiler. Maybe next years boiler wiil be the one.   Holmes

I do have great insulation in my house. My hot water costs me more than my heat. In fact, as I look at the pictures of your house I see snow on the ground, and none on the roof. At my house the snow on the ground is usually gone before the snow on my roof.

I did an experiment on this house, something I always wanted to try. I have a double ceiling. Very simple. I drywalled and taped the ceiling and walls. Then I added 3/4" strips, then another layer of drywall, finish taped. Around the exterior walls I built a dropped soffit, insulated with polyiso foam, which also doubles as a way to get the infloor fed to the back of the house for the second zone. In my first year the top of the 2x6 ceiling joist were still showing, insulation in between. My worst heat bills that winter were $72 for heat and hot water. The next winter I blew in some insulation, and my bills did not change when comparing cu ft to heating days. In other words gas went up, but my usage was still the same. I have zero roof ventilation, and yet I never have an icycle on my eaves. Never.

So.... I am doing the same thing with my new house, but the first layer will be polyiso foamed in between the sheets, and my dropped soffits at the eves will be a bit bigger. I do not allow wires to go through into the attic if not absolutely necessary, and never any on the eave sides. I am fanatical in all the homes I build that they be tight. Most need air to air exchangers.

You sound like you are a heating contractor?  I am having a hard time deciding what to do as my house will be super efficient with out going solar, and will not require much, but on the other hand the shop will be less so. Maybe I just need to treat them as seperate entities, that will make things simpler.

Nice old house by the way! Location looks great as well. A big share of my business lately has been restoration work. I make all of the old mouldings in Azek. No one can tell and they will be there as long as I need. Mixed with wood siding it is a good combination, looks original but will not have the paint problems that plague wood trim, especially with the wood we have to work with today.

Thank you for your input, I am listening.....

Larry

Just Me

 I just googled "outside wood boilers review regulation". Holy Cow!

There is some crap coming down the pike all over the country. I have some reading to do.


Holmes

 Just Me  I am a plumbing ,heating contractor. I enjoy hydronic heating it is more challenging than plumbing.  I bought the farm in 99 and spent 6 years on a total remodel, inside and out. I did 2/3 of the work myself. The house has 2 lb. density spray foam insulation ( r7 per inch) in the walls (2.5") and roofs (5") I heat 5000 sq. ft. with 800 gallons of oil with radiant floor heat.  Not bad for a house that went thru 250 gallons  of oil in 10 days with steam heat back in the 90s.  The insulation is sprayed right to the roof boards and rafters and we have no ice dams or icicles.  Great insulation.
Now on your project you could put a high efficiency boiler in your shop large enough to heat your house and shop, run insulated pipes underground to the house and heat the house from the shop boiler. The business would be paying to heat your house. When you rebuild the shop put an addition on  for a future add on ( gasifying wood  ;D) boiler and pipe that to the high eff. boiler.  This way when you leave the shop in the afternoon you can fill the boiler with wood ,walk home and be warm for the rest of the night.  Oh and on those condensing gas boilers get one with a ss heat exchanger seems that the aluminum products are eating themselves away from the outside in. Small pieces of aluminum are falling off the exterior of the heat exchangers and plugging up the condensate drains, not good. Holmes
Think like a farmer.

Just Me

 I had not thought of the idea of feeding the house from the shop for those economic reasons.... Hmmm...

I had thought about feeding the house from the shop as far as electricity, but had never considered heat. Would the line loss in say a 100 ft run be too high when you are paying for gas?

I did a lot of reading last night on upcoming regulations, and I may hold off a bit as you have suggested to see what shakes out, and allow the technology to catch up a bit. Couple of things that bother me about wood boilers, the codes coming down the pike, and the burnout rate. Even figuring a ten year average life expectancy, and factoring in the collection cost of stocking wood, I am just not seeing the payoff in an efficient building at this time. In a building that is inefficient and is going through fistfulls of dollars it makes more sense, but not so much in a small efficent house like mine. I do like the independence and the idea that if fuel cost spiral upward you have options under your control.

I have also thought about building one myself. I have a full metal shop at my disposal from when my brother and I fabbed off-road race trucks, and there doesn't seem to be all that much that is tricky. Controls and design would be where I would be weak. I did 2.5 years as a plumber before I started building, but that was 30+ years ago, so much is forgotten, and what I do remember has probably changed.

I am planning on contacting insurance companys to find out exactly what their rules are as far as wood burners in the house/shop. One that I had in mind was an outside wood boiler built into the side of the shop, but the firebox not accessable from the inside. I have been told that I can not have a wood stove in my shop because of the possibility of a dust explosion, understandable, but I am wondering if I build it so the fire is not connected to the inside if it would be approved. That way all the heat loss from around the burner would be for the most part captured in the shop, and handy to get rid of unusable scrap. The part on the outside could be insulated, and the inside masonary. A great big heat soak.

I would put a simple woodstove in the house, but the difference in insurance would more than pay my heat bill for a year at the present rates. Its more than double.

There is a backstory of why I am being so cautious. Thirteen years ago I had a disasterous divorce. Never marry a rich girl, they can afford better lawyers :(

Anyway..
I had to start over from Zero, and due to what we will call an adventurous lifestyle I broke 63 bones over the years. I am only 54, but my past is fast catching up with me and my days of crawling over houses is fast coming to a close. This place will be paid off, and I want it to be low maintainance, and economical. My wife is 20 years younger than I and I want a setup that will allow her to keep it if something should happen to me. Everything that I do has to be reliable, economical, and built to last.

Soon I will have to make a living just in the wood shop, which I am actually looking forward to, but there is less money in it than there is in construction. I am close to my goal, but not quite there yet.....

Really appreciate all of the input. This is a very nice group of down to earth people here, salt of the earth and all that.

Thanks, The other Larry

doctorb

Just Me-

My understanding is that the reason the boilers have such large water reservoirs is to increase stove efficiency.  Once the stove gets really fired up (I mean the firebox has a raging fire in it), a tremendous amount of heat is released.  With a smaller water jacket, that would shut down the stove after shorter burn times because it takes much less energy to raise, for example, 100 gallons of water 10 degrees versus 300 gallons of water.

The stoves, and in particular the gassers, need to get up to temp and burn the wood completely.  This requires very high temps and a little bit of time, once the fans kick in to re-energize the fire.  The stoves are not efficient in idle mode (sitting still awaiting the signal tio produce more heat).  While efficient in "low burn" mode, the real environmental and efficiency savings comes when the stove is cranking on high burn.  That energy needs to be stored, or it is lost, and storage of all that energy is the basis for using such large amounts of water in the jacket.  So instead of having the stove turn on and off again and again after short intervals, the large volume water jacket permits storage of the energy with a resultant need to fire up the stove less often.  This is also where the wood savings with gassers originates.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

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