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twin log edger (scragg) type mill questions.

Started by weisyboy, January 29, 2011, 06:18:36 AM

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weisyboy

i have been asking a few questions about this and that, and i am still confused about what to do so i thaught id put it all together here.

im planning on building twin log edger, scrag type mil,

It's main use would be for cutting square posts and beams 6x6, 8x8, 10 x 10, 12x12. and squaring up small pine logs so i can drop them on the bench. so it would need to be able to cut a 17-18" log minimum.

iv got about 1000 mature slash/radiata pine trees that i have to cut down and either burn or mill, id like to mill them, but pine is low value so i need a fast way for cuttin it. They are mostly between 10 and 14" diameter.

iv got the thing pretty much worked out and but tehre a few ways of doing some things. this is where i would like input from those who have used them, seen them, made them or have no idea about them but have an opinion.

ill add more questions etc as i go.
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gator gar

Boman runs a Scragg everyday with the twin blade edger. I've seen it run a bunch and think you can cut everything you are wanting to cut with it, even a little smaller.

weisyboy

so here is what i have.

plenty of 5' (1.5m) diameter blades.
2 - 5' long x 1 1/2" saw spindles
lots of steel and stuff.

first question is in regards to powering the blades.

option 1 - electric - put a 10-15hp 3 phase motor on each saw.

i would need to buy a bigger generator and 2 motors. i would also need a variable speed motor to run the feed and saw movement. i think this would be easiest but possibly the most expensive.

option 2 - hydraulic - put a hydraulic motor on each saw.

i would need a hydraulic power pack big enough to run 2 motors that produce enough power to cut some wood. i dont really like hydraulics in a sawmill because oil and dust dont mix.

option 3 - counter shaft - run a counter shaft threw and run both blades of a motor be it deisel/petroll or electric. this would be the way id like to go as it will be cheaper and better having just one motor, however im not sure how you would make it so the blades could move, as the belts / pulleys would have to slide on the couter shaft. i can get a 45hp deisel motor from a fiat tractor for about $1200.00 this would also have a hydraulic pump that would run feed and saw placement.


ideas/thoughts/suggestions/criticism/ any other way i could do it?
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
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sgschwend

So the saws moves relative to the centerline so that you obtain equal cuts from the center.  With a 90 degree log rotation you achieve a square.

You want an arbor that has a slide coupling to couple power to the non driven side.  Something like the pto shafts used on tractors to drive a mower.   

The one video I watch the mill used air cylinders to position the saws.  You could likely do it with one cylinder too.  In either case you would want to drive the cylinder to fixed stops.  Another adjustment approach would be to use a lead screw, by using two lead screws end to end with a reversing gear you could rotate one screw and adjust both saws.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

weisyboy

if i ran a splined shaft right threw underneath, had splined collars that slid on that spline, that have pulleys on them would that work, or would the sliding internal splined collars bind up and not move.

side movement i was thinking a leadscrew, left right thread, that was the saws would move evenly away from the center line.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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sgschwend

I would think that would work if you used the right type of belt, perhaps with a tensioner that was controllable between low and high tension (lower tension for setworks) or a sprocket type belt.

I had a crazy idea about the drive shaft that had instead of pulleys, one that used friction drives like a car tires that coupled to the saw hub shaft. 

Left/right lead screws end to end, or I was suggesting just reversing the second lead screw.
Steve Gschwend

sjgschwend@gmail.com

Warren

Weisy,

Sounds like you are on the right track.  You might want to check HP requirements on the saw mandrels.  In the past I have "heard" that the rule of thumb for edgers is 5 hp per blade, per inch of thickness.   As a result, my 2 blade 2" Baker edger has a 20 hp gas engine.  I know 3 phase electric motors are more efficient.  But, if you want to pull two 60" circle saws thru 8" to 10" of wood at the same time, it might require more than 20 to 30 horse power. 

I would bet that someone will be along shortly that can give you a better estimate on the power required to reliably pull the load you are considering....

As always... Pictures !

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

ARKANSAWYER

 



  I have a Morgan Mini Scragg and it has two 36 inch blades and it runs off of a 50hp 480 3ph motor.  It will cut up to 9x9 cants and logs up to 15 inch dia.  It has a chain that has dogs on it that catches the back of the log and moves it between the blades.  It takes another 5 hp electric motor to run the hydraulics that moves the chain.  The blades have to be hammered just so as they are cutting on different sides of the log.  If you want to invest about a $100,000.00 they have end dogging scrags that cut boards off the sides of the logs and they are very fast and cool.
ARKANSAWYER

weisyboy

i know with th small motors it would not be fast, especialy in hardwood, but it will be faster and easyer than cutting them on the lucas, and a lot less trouble then the breast benches.

i do have a 90hp motor out of a MF tractor here, and a perkins from a bedford truck that i could put on it also.

to push the log threw i was palnning on having a lump of 3" wide channel on top of a 3" wide i beam, fixed dog at one end and moving one at the other, this way i can take log threw, bring it back roll and send back threw, making a square cant.

i would need to be able to do posts up to 5m long. otherwise id have end dogging like on the helle scrag mill. with a hyd motor to turn the cant.

here is a good question, would a 6" long splined conllar slide along a 6 spline 1 3/8" shaft wile there was weight on it from belts, or would i be better to go with chain drive and not have the tention on the bottom shaft?.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
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bandmiller2

Weisy,I know little of scragg  mills but don't think you would have trouble moving collars along a lubed splined shaft ,no load. Seems easiest to have one saw fixed and one slide.What if you took a long splined shaft say out of a tractor axle and used the hubs without locks.Probibly an acme thread lead screw and simple yardstick(or metric)with a pointer to adjust. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

weisyboy

problem i can see that has one saw fixed is you would have to move your carridge/chain over each time aswell to keep the middle of the log in the center of the saws.

refrences to here. http://www.bareco.com.au/files/pto2002/pto11.htm

if i used a 6 spline shaft like this one 10'long (B7283) cut it back to the length i needed about 7'm i recon.

then got one of these 3 1/4" long collars (B287) for each end and the middle. to mount bearings on. they could be held in place by a pin or grub screws.

then got 2 of these 6" long high tensile collars (B8287)for my pulleys to mount onto so they could slide.

i have used these things before and the tolerances are pretty close (no slop).

i could then attach streight on to the end of that shaft with a tractor pto or drive from a motor. easy as.



god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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weisyboy

on second thaught why wouldn't i just make up saw collars with the spline in the middle and just have the spline as my saw shaft.

god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000696669814&sk=photos

Meadows Miller

Gday

Carl good news on the Anderson scragg mills he said seeing as you where a Mate of mine you could have them for $2k cash each Mate ;)  ;D   both are the same model with about 10' and 12' cut length capacity (which can easily be stretched) and can open up to saw a10x10 or 12x12" cant  ;) He has about 12 x 38" to 44" saws that are in pairs  for each mill they are complete as removed from the mill to install the Cooper scragg  ;) the saw and outfeed rollcase are a modular unit and all they did to take them out of the mill was cut the log infeed rail at the saw module and disconnect the chain they also have the electric control panels and starters along with their own blower and hyd power pack from the looks of the pics Mate  ;)

As far as he knows they where both brought at the same time to saw pine t1 into pallet and case timber they also brought at the time a Grey 1 man mini bench to run as re saw for wings while the cants went through a  multi rip  as it was running before being removed the mill was running at 20 to 30 m3 8500 to 12750 bft sawn per day  ;) the reason for their removal was to install the Cooper and double production as they had got extra allocation in their license that went from 14000 ton to 28000 ton of logs  pa   ;)


I hope this hlps and I will be sending the pictures as they sit now down the back of the mill yard he is also going to send me some pics of when they where installed  and running later in the week when he can too Mate  ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

they look good mate, right price to ;D

have you seen then? or know how they work.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

the only issue I see for you is distance along with the fact that I reckon you would need to find out what sort of  motors and startes are on it to work out the rite size kva genset you would need if that perkins is a 6354@ 125hp it might just pull a 90 odd kva genset  ;) if you want a hand with nutting that out I have all the starting requirements and kva draw loads on the comp here i can do the calculations on for you Mate   ;)
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

duno what it is mate.

wonder what a 90kva genset would cost.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

I ran one years ago just a little play session  ;) :D ;D 8) and know of two mills around here that have run them and seen about 5 mills in person that where running them as one was a place that spent ages trying to get me but never offered enough money to leave where i was   ;) :D but I use to call into on my way home from work to have a yarn with the boys on a friday arvo they where a bloody good bunch of blokes that worked there  ;) ;D ;D

That was the one i ran it was about the same age as the ones in SA  but the boys where running her pretty hard and on producing 4 and 6" x 12' long two sided cants that went through a multi rip producing stock to resaw and machine lattice lathe and pallet timber out off and the same deal with the wing boards they piled up on a chain deck and went over a little two man bench with about a 30" saw in her anything that could not make 100x12mm in a 1.8 (4x1/2 inch by 6' went into the chipper )  a good day from them was about 30m3+ sawn  ;) when I was on it i was putting through about 3 to 5 logs in a min logs a min in 6 to 10' dia logs  3 if i had to do a saw shift and 5 if i had a run of logs that would make the same size center cant  that was leaving the chain running at about 50 meters a min or about 150' a min with the loading there was vertical back bars you just flicked the log of the log deck and up against the bars which roughly centered the log on the chain then roll the log back a few inches to  get centered on the chain and clear of the bars then Bang one of the feed lugs would slam into the back end of the log and take the 12 footer it through the saws in about 5 seconds Exciting stuff for an 18 yo   :o :)  ;D 8) 8) 8)

you had to keep one hand on the feed leaver  cause if a log did not roll the way you wanted it to the first time you had to stop the feed chain before the next lug came around and straiten up the log to feed into the machine properly  ;) they also had a little plate of steel at an angle that the chain ran over and when the lug ran up it the chain would drop back down onto it with a Clang which let you know there was only about afew seconds to go before the next lug was coming flyinground for another crack  ;)  if you where not ready or a little slow it would just take the log through which ever way it was sitting  :o the boys had a couple of misc cuts wedges strapped to the mill wall to show off what not to do  ;) :D :D :D  as it did knock the saws about abit if the log was up inthe air abit when it hit em   :o :o

the only thing bad I could say about that little mill was that it was used as a money machine by some of the owners over the 20yrs it was running which ment it was run into the ground by most of them doing little to no maint  :) ::) ::) there was one bloke who did look after it well and did alot of work to it as it was his second mill and his first large one if you have heard of company called CCA PINE or its national sales  name is Q PINE it was Bob Rosker's first pine mill he said it did a good job for them when they owned it when i was talking to him early last year  his new mill cuts 110000 ton of log a year  ;)

if you want to do larger logs and  multipal passes these ones  where setup to do that also as log dia was getting alittle on the big side for single pass breakdown when Victor too over the mill as they mainly where getting salvage grade logs from clear fell and final thinings they just have more lugs on the chain as you do not want to be waiting long if you are backing a log up to take the next pass it just means you are abit slower as you have to do more passes but on the flip side you have more log on the machine Mate  ;)  ;D ;D 8) 8)

with sizing I will also add that you want to make sure evrything id tight on the chains that connect to the dial figure scale to get accurate center cants another otion which was on the one i used was just hard stops at 6 and 4" then you just go Bang Bang from size to size like  i think i said in the other thread they run a course threaded rod to actuate the shift simplw and robust that is why I have always liked them as a machine   ;) "Old School" Mate  ;) :D ;D  ;D 8) 8) 8)

If you want to go over and take a look I can come with you if you want me  too the main thing to look for is heavy wear but those things are not hard to fix Mate  ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

sounds good

will wait for the other pics mate.

might have to go for a road trip.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

Carl I also forgot I spent two weeks operating a Gibson chain feed twin saw edger just alitlle larger than the Anderson with 7.5 meter cut and 50" saws doing about 20 to22m3 sawn a day over that and a Gibson one man auto bench  in it in about 04 but the bloke jibbed me on my first pay check and also was a tight butt with mill maint the poor thing had had the living daylights flogged outa it chain failuers alone where costing us up to 2 hrs of downtime per day they where all patch n reapairs I had the joy stik on the bench come out in my hand things like that  :o :) ;) :D :D  and  you don't go offering $27.50 an hr and asking a bloke to work 400 mi from home to get him to help sort out issues with production and maint then pay him base rate of $ $16.50 on the first fortnights pay  ??? ??? ???  when i went to the office and as he was  arking up at me about not lifting production  :o :) ??? ::) took the high road and just walked out of the mill gave him the finger and said I have alot better things to do with my time than deal with Idiots like you mate got in the car n drove home   ;) :D :D :D ;D 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

thanks for all this chris ill have to look into cartage to.

i am still after answers and opinions on my build questions.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

"Road Trip" move_it move_it Im always up for one of those Mate  ;) ;D 8) 8)

Any time Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8)

Yeah its about a 2400ks (1500miles) hike each way for you to travel  ;)   figuring 4 days truck hire $150 per day truck hire plus excess k rates n fuel you would be looking at about $1600 and your time if you picked it up yourself  ;) Victor runs a transport company as well and has contacts so he would most likely be able to find someone to haul it up to you on the cheap if you went with getting one .

With the hp on the saw motors i think these ones have a 35hp motor on each saw Ill give Victor a ring tonight I will also give you both eachover's numb Mate  ;)

Regards Chris



4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

Yeah me too done heaps of driving over the years everywhere from perth to  north of brisbane Mate ;) ;D ;D ;D 8)
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

it seams to be a long way from here to there in qld.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
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Meadows Miller

 :D :D :D Well you do live in a big state up there Mate  ;) :D :D :D
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

yer

i saw a pic of it agains the uk today.

i reonc i could drive clear across that joint before nightfall.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
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Meadows Miller

Yeah I reckon you could  ;) :D  My Sister and her Husband lived in London for two years and he said it was about a 3 hour drive from London to  Scotland  :) :) ;) :D :D

Here's some info www.dfat.gov.au/aib/island_continet.html

That reminds me of  old joke  A Texan Rancher walks into a Pub way out west of  Qld asks the publican for a beer and spots an old cocky sitting at the end of the bar and starts a conversation with him and it finally gets around to the size of their farms the Aussie asks how big is your spread and the Texan goes well ifn I get in my truck it takes me 2 days to drive across it  ;D to which the Aussie said  I have a Bloody Ute like that too sometimes Mate  ;) :D :D :D :D

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Meadows Miller


Now Back to the original programing SCRAGG Mills  ;)
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

yes

so you recon my saw collars with an internal spline would work. i like the idea of less moving parts.

the other thing is would a 1 3/8" high tensile saft over 12" span be strong enough not to flex.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000696669814&sk=photos

weisyboy



iv decided to go with the saw collars on a splined shaft, it will be a lot easyer.

2 l/r lead screws will move the saws (blueframe) connected to a hydraulic motor via a timing belt.

log will sit in a 75mm wide channel with end dogs, gota get pricing and recomendations on slides/rollers fo keep it moving and streight. it will be pulled by a wire cable.



god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000696669814&sk=photos

Meadows Miller

Gday Carl

Not a bad looking drawing you have done there with the beam make it a piece of I beam say 6 or 7" deep and 2" wide  so you can clear the top n bottom of the outer collars when you have the saws closed in I take it you want to go down to a 3" center cant with this one ie for 4x3s ??? and you will have to get your free collars turned up with the thread in them 1 piece with a couple of holes drilled into that to tighten the collar onto the shaft just like the outer collar on a grinder Mate  ;)  you will also need some way of dogging on the front or back of the log to keep it where you want it as with chain ones the preasure of the lug on the back of the log is what keeps it in place  Mate  ;)

Are you still interested in the other ones as i have the extra pics here  if you want me to send them through or do you think they might be just a little too far away to be dragging home Mate  ???

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

weisyboy

4" is all i want to go down to,

i was planning on using a 3" wide 2" deep channel, the post at one end of the cradle would move in to clamp the log in place.

send threw those pics mate, im waiting for some quotes on transport.
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000696669814&sk=photos

Sec

unless less you a bloody good fitter id highly recomend buying one not building one

weisyboy

mate wev always made up our own saws.

my grandfatehr stared making one of the first sawmills round, squared up some logs with brad axe and adz, his cousin was a smith made up the spindle.

one shee was cuttin they used it to cut timber to make a batter saw. eventually they had saws everyware.

last ones me and dad made up before we had to shut down were a canadian fully hydraulic head blocks and turners, and a coupla mulitsaws for riping stakes, pointers and dockers.

you can never buy the right bit of gear and if you can its way to frigin expencive. 
god bless america god save the queen god defend new zealand and thank christ for Australia
www.weisssawmilling.com.au
http://www.youtube.com/user/weisyboy?feature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000696669814&sk=photos

Sec

its a lot of engineering for a twin edger as i said your gonna want to be a good fitter to build it thats just my opinion best of luck with it

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