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Trying to learn a few things before I buy land

Started by DAK, January 25, 2011, 04:11:59 PM

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DAK

Hey everyone my name is Dan, so far I love your site. I am a young guy interested in buying some property and would like to log some of it to help subsidize its cost.  If yall have any good links or advice on quoting timber I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks everyone!

Dan

CX3

Welcome to FF.  Logging is a good way to take care of a few pesky mortgage payments.  I hope it works out for ya.
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

Texas Ranger

Welcome to the board, DAK, give us an idea where you are located and some one from around you will chime in and talk your language.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

ely

heres two for certain tips on your land. once purchased you will have trespassers and taxes ;D
welcome to the site.

DAK

Thanks for the warm welcome yall, I like this site already! ha ha. I'm currently in school in Middle Tennessee but am planning on moving back to west tennessee somewhere within an hour of home (Jackson TN).  Needless to say I have another 2-3 years (hopefully that soon at least) till I am out and working.  Anyways as it is to everyone on here I'm sure, I've always wanted a small farm and lots of land in this area is pretty wooded.  I have a friend who just bought 50 acres and managed to pay off about half of it with a couple big walnut trees and some select oak and pine cutting.  I guess what I really am looking to find out is some of the basics in identifying species and learning what size is harvestable and what kind of prices can be expected. 

I am sure there are threads similar to this one that are throughout this forum that have this info, I am just yet to find them.

Also there are many loggers who will come quote your timber if you have 10 acres or more, but I am not interested in being short changed if possible. 

Anyways if yall have any links or insight I would be greatly appreciative.

Thanks again for the help and welcome!

Dan

DAK

BTW CX3, you have an awsome logging set up, I'm in envy when I see your threads.  I guess a guy can dream HaHa

Dan

CX3

Well thanks.  In all reality, awesome would be a 450 Timberjack painted cherry red with flames, a new peterbilt with straight pipes, walnut logs so big it takes half the spool to choke them up, and a dallas cowboys cheerleader bringing water to me :D
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

paul case

welcome,
i have done just what you are talking about. timing on the log thing is everything. i cut delivered and sold serveral loads of grade red oak from a 20 ac  property i purchased some time back. land cost me $950/acre. i cleared half of it where the timber was the best and the timber was worth $7500.

thats the good part.

the rest of the story is this was before fuel was $3 or more. i used equipment i had been farming with to load and deliver the logs.

it is a lot better if a person undestands a couple things before he starts.
1. it is real work to do it yourself. if you are going to hire it done it will cost you, probably from 40% to 60 %

2. if you do it yourself it wont be fast. timber markets change at 200x the speed of a 1 man logging crew.

3. there will be trees that will be good for little more than firewood. thats the lemon part. learn how to make lemonade.

pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

DAK

Haha yea that would be nice CX3.

I understand what your saying tho, my plans would be to have them cut by someone else and do the dragging and delivery myself.  What you have done is what I would like to do, subsidize some of the cost of the land.  I would not expect to do it overnight either and I do not plan to get rich off this process.  You stated that some timber is basically worthless, what kind of things should I be looking for to determine if a tree is valuable or worthless.

Thanks for all the input guys!

Dan

Ron Wenrich

Not all land is equal.  Just because its listed as wooded, doesn't mean that the wood on it is worth anything.  Before you even purchase a property, it would be a good idea to have a forester walk the property (minimum) or do an inventory before you buy it.  Just because trees look big and nice doesn't mean they're worth much.

What you are trying to do is come up with a bare land value.  That would be the price of the land less the value of the timber.  I've seen cases where the timber was worth more than the asking price.  This is the situation that you want to get.  They're hard to find, as many people will cut the timber prior to sale.

It sounds like you're planning to use your forest as an ATM card instead of a savings account.  Lots of landowners do that, and they lose money in the long run.  A "selective" cut is many times a code word for high grade.  That's where you liquidate all the high value trees, and leave the smaller scrubs behind to grow.  Depending on past management practices, that may or may not work.  Again, a forester comes in mighty handy before you do the cutting.  Good management is more dependent on what is left in a stand instead of what is taken out.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Meadows Miller

Quote from: CX3 on January 25, 2011, 09:29:56 PM
Well thanks.  In all reality, awesome would be a 450 Timberjack painted cherry red with flames, a new peterbilt with straight pipes, walnut logs so big it takes half the spool to choke them up, and a dallas cowboys cheerleader bringing water to me :D

You forgot to add all the trees would be strait,large n tall with very few limbs till the last 15' Mate   ;) :D :D ;D I dont know thats a pretty tidy Freightliner you have there anyway CX Theres only one of that model on the road in Australia and its a pity they decided not to import them into this market   :) ??? :( :'( somthing to do with them rattling themselfs to pieces on australian roads  ;)

Welcome to the forum Dan you are on the rite track just stick with Us and put some good planing ito it and you should do well enough out of it to cover a good part of the property purchase price ;) Have you though about buying a Sawmill to make the most value out of your timber  ;) :D ;D ;D 8) 8)

and paul ill buy some of that timberland at $950 an acre but I would want alot of it Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

SwampDonkey

Ditto to Ron's post. Sounds to me you need help with understanding what you have and what the market is at that time. You can dream of walnut trees worth $12000, but you better understand what makes it worth that price and who is ready with cash in hand. You have some work, unless you just want someone else with a saw in his hand or felling head to make all the decisions and hope for the best.  :-\
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Wrangler55

Quote from: DAK on January 26, 2011, 12:16:52 AM
Haha yea that would be nice CX3.

I understand what your saying tho, my plans would be to have them cut by someone else and do the dragging and delivery myself.  What you have done is what I would like to do, subsidize some of the cost of the land.  I would not expect to do it overnight either and I do not plan to get rich off this process.  You stated that some timber is basically worthless, what kind of things should I be looking for to determine if a tree is valuable or worthless.

Thanks for all the input guys!

Dan

Dan,

Check out this site. http://timbergreenforestry.com/  It's got a lot of information about turning low grade logs into usable products.  They manage a 200 acre forest by removing the dead, dying, trees in decline, or trees that are marginal for any reason.  They turn small crooked logs into flooring and install them for customers. The price you get for products will always bring more than raw materials.  Logs sell for low prices, compaired to rough sawn lumber, which is low priced when compaired to kiln dried lumber, which is low priced in comparison to installed flooring. You've got to pick a price point and effort level to maxamize your proffit and minimize your effort and expenditure.

I chose to carve custom rifle stocks and have progressed to the point I bought a sawmill to produce my own lumber.  It's a manual mill because it was cheep and will produce enough in two days of sawing to keep me carving for a month.  I sell unfinished gunstocks for several reasons... One of which is: I do 90% of the work carving the stock which takes 10% of the time required to produce a finished gunstock.  The customer who buys a stock from me provides the 90% of the time required to do the last 10% of the work.  I can (if I work to the max) produce 4 stocks a day, and while the customer is spending 2 or 3 days to finish his stock, I can make and sell more unfinished stocks.  Plus the customer gets the satisfaction of building something he can be proud of and he's done enough of the work to rightfully feel he's done the work.

So, before you finish school, take some forestry or agriculture classes as electives.  And take advantage of the schools library.  Then go talk to landowners in the area you want to live in that have made or lost money with their land investment.  Also find loggers and sawmills.  Take time to talk to them and ask enough informed questions to learn from each person.  You can learn at least four, things from every person you talk with... 1. What they did right, and 2. what they did wrong, 3. what they would do different if they were to start over, 4. and what you've learned that you can apply to your own situation. Find success stories and do what you can to emulate them.

I stopped at a local log yard yesterday and talked to the lot manager. My goal was to get a price list to see what professionals were paying for logs in my area.  I not only got the price list, I got a great deal on some logs. The lot manager has a rifle with a broken stock.  He's swapping me some logs for a custom stock. The logs I get won't impact his business because I'll take logs that aren't marketable as sawlogs. So, I get wood and he gets a free stock.  I use wood that has 'character' for my stocks.  Most of the best wood comes from the crotch end or root end of logs that loggers leave in the woods.  Also curved, short, ugly logs that are unmarketable are also left in the woods or sold as pulp wood.  That stuff sells for $100/thousand or $0.10 a bft.   A lot is free if I take my trailer to the logging site and pick up the wood myself.

Hal

I'm so covered with sawdust, my nickname should be dusty...

paul case

Quote from: Meadows Miller on January 26, 2011, 07:05:29 AM
and paul ill buy some of that timberland at $950 an acre but I would want alot of it Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

the trouble is they aint making any more of it.  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

SwampDonkey

The trend up here is to liquidate before the sale, so $1000 an acre goes out the window in these parts. Maybe $200, many times $5O/acre. One guy working with the Agricultural department gave me the line about financed farms not allowed to be liquidated. I said open your eyes, I've never seen anyone buying a farm that didn't hit the woods to help pay the bill. ;) Heck down at one of the Federal experimental farms, probably the rest are the same, it has been flattened for 25 years. I guess they needed to pay some bills to. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Meadows Miller



Jezz Paul  :) ??? :( :( :'( I thought there would be a bloody hitch somewhere to bring my grand plan undone Mate  ;) :D :D

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

DAK

yall are awsome please keep the feedback coming! And wrangler that sounds like some good advice taking the left overs and turning them into profit. I also think some forestry classes like you said would be helpful too.  How do yall identify tree species and which ones are profitable?

DAK

I also really like the idea of turning the wood into hardwood flooring considering I used to install and sell it.  I'm guessing you use a planar to tongue and groove it?

Meadows Miller

Gday

Dan seeing as you use to lay flooring you could well get into manufacturing your own flooring for sale but it would be capital intensive as you would have to tie a fair amount up in stock air drying for planing into flooring  but you can get effective small scale kiln kits at low capital cost but you would still have say $30k plus tied up in a couple of kilns and a good molder there is usually three grades #1 #2 and what we call Natural feature grade which has a lot of defect allowance you can get #2 & Nfg out of a pretty average looking log  ;) if you planing to buy a fair size parcel of land it would be money well spent to get a forester to go over the block and give you a report on quality and expected volume in the stand Mate

With species identification  it takes time to educate yourself as there are alot out there It would be good to do some research on your trips home to get specific details and education in the forest type you intend to purchase  ;)

Regards Chris   
4TH Generation Timbergetter

SwampDonkey

Quote from: DAK on January 27, 2011, 12:16:27 AM
How do yall identify tree species and which ones are profitable?

You have to know at least two approaches that. 1)You have to be able to look at the bark, form of the crown, leaves, twigs and such out in the woodlot to know what you have. This is the dendrology of the tree.

2)When in the mill yard and all you have is bark and the end grain (cross section of the tree growth) of the ends of the log.

Then open the log up and you get to see the side and flat surfaces at this point. Peeled veneer is the only truly tangential surfaced forest product. Where as lumber has both tangential (surface of  the log) and radial (across the rings as in quarter sawed lumber or the sides of flat sawed lumber) surfaces, this is in relation to the length of a board or log. Height growth, the length of the log, is called the longitudinal direction.

There are keys to help learn to separate wood in log and lumber form, but you have to learn the jargon. At this point, a ray , a pore, earlywood , latewood, sapwood, and heartwood probably don't mean a thing to ya.

If your looking into the manufacturing of forest products for the profit end, you have to look at the input costs into getting the logs, the specifications required in the purchasing of the logs (defect, sweep, knots, small end size), costs to manufacture the lumber, the grades of lumber, the in-outs of drying the product, the markets out there to sell it to.

If your just wanting to sell logs, you have to know the log markets in your area, what they pay, their buying specs. Maybe they work on contract, or maybe you have it logged for you and what is your cut. You have to negotiate that, but you have the have an idea what is fair.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DAK

Wow this has been some great input, sounds like you never stop learning in this trade.  Although its a bit overwhelming, the idea of producing hardwood is sounding very interesting.  My biggest mountain to climb will obviously be purchasing the land and equipment.  I am understanding that I could buy "junk" logs for relatively cheap, so that makes me wonder if anyone that already owns a mill would cut, plane, and route a tree into tongue and groove for a price or would the price most likely be too high?  If anyone has ever heard of smaller mills doing this than I could easily start this summer and just use my friends farm as a place to store the logs and possibly convince him to turn an old barn of his into a kiln. Is a makeshift kiln extremely difficult to make? Thanks again yall.

Dan

beenthere

DAK
This vidoe may be of interest, and just posted up on another thread. Is pretty specific to mfg flooring, using volunteer help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O01vkDEMoyY&feature=player_embedded

That other thread mentioned was about quarter sawing to get the rays to display themselves better in the product.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48563.msg700693.html#msg700693
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

tjdub

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 26, 2011, 04:58:13 PM
The trend up here is to liquidate before the sale

In my area there was a 80 acre half woods, half tillable parcel for sale (realtor owned it)  A local guy was interested, he went through all the hoops and all the paperwork and bought it.  Well, what do you think happened while he was concentrating on the closing process?  The realtor had it logged at the last minute without telling him.   Imagine his surprise after he took a look at his 80 acres after signing those papers!  Be sure to get what you're buying in writing because until you take ownership, the seller still owns the trees.

Also, don't put too much trust in realtors, they know all the tricks.  Ideally, when you buy land, there should be 4 people involved (1 seller, 1 buyer, and 2 lawyers).  Unfortunately, that's not often possible in this age.  These days it's just 1 seller, 1 buyer, and a bunch of bankers and a realtor doing their best to rob both parties ;)

jeffreythree

Dan, glad to see someone who educates themselves before buying.  I was looking for a different kind of property when I bought my small place that ended up being mostly  wooded.  I read as many of the landowner/nonprofessional books I could find on the subject and read any relevant thread I could find here, after the purchase  :-\.  The realtors would either say "It's a good deal" since it had just been clear cut, or "Look at all this timber you could sell" when in reality it was to junky to bother cutting and risk a lower land price.  I realized after purchase that I should have looked into who buys timber in my area as well.  Oh well, live and learn on that end.  It led me to produce retail craft products (I was already a serious woodworker) from our wood that have made quite a few more payments than a couple of loads of pallet or hardwood pulp ever would, even after the purchase of a small mill.   The best part is my top seller has become things made from cedar elm, a "junk" tree we have a lot of.  I am slowly making things better while making a buck ;D.
Trying to get out of DFW, the land of the $30,000 millionaires.  Look it up.

GATreeGrower

There's a good book of basic knowledge called A Landowner's Guide to Managing Your Woods that might help you.

Tmac47

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 27, 2011, 07:15:08 AM

If your just wanting to sell logs, you have to know the log markets in your area, what they pay, their buying specs. Maybe they work on contract, or maybe you have it logged for you and what is your cut. You have to negotiate that, but you have the have an idea what is fair.

Most mills have weekly quotas with timber dealers and it could be hard to penetrate this market, especially if you live in a particularly competitive area.

I know a logger who works in NE Georgia and delivers wood all the way in Southeastern Tennessee and things aren't looking great right now.  One of the mills he delivers to is getting ready to shut down one of its loaders, so their capacity is dropping by 25%, which means they'll be buying less wood, which means the market is going to get even more competitive.

Since you're still in school, depending on how motivated you are, you should seek an "internship" with a mill or large timber company to get an inside look at the industry.  If you're serious about wanting to deliver your own wood, this would be my advice.

mesquite buckeye

Don't be thinking you can get other people to do all the work and you end up with free or nearly free land. If it was all that easy to do, we would all do it.

Reality check. Lifelong job to make, keep and grow a forest. Do it right, work hard, be smart and one day it may pay off. Life has no guarantees. That said, I love my woods. Maybe someday I'll actually make some money with it.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

SwampDonkey

TMac we have a little different situation in NB, but not totally different. The guys working on crown land doing the harvesting, they know all their wood is going to market and as log as the mill is alive they'll be paid. We also have a few 'wood brokers', not many, and marketing boards. Any wood off private woodlots is regulated by the marketing boards. And levy is paid, even if through a broker. This is a marketing and management fee and less than 3 % of sales. What broker does management? None that I know. ;) The marketing boards at one time negotiated contracts with mills using a system of quota holders that could deliver volumes giving the mills some certainty that wood would flow their way to meet their needs. At that time private wood was the primary source of supply because it was competing with crown timber. What never worked well was the mills could shut them off while volumes kept flowing off crown land harvest blocks, then expect the private wood deliveries to be met in short order when they opened the gates again. Like turning the tap on and off. Then have the mill complain until the sun set about not having fresh wood when some of it had to sit 3-6 months on the landing because they were shut off after the wood had already been cut. ::) Or simply sold it to Maine because bills and wages need to be paid if your running a logging business. And then on occasion find out that some pulp sat on landings out on crown land for 8-10 months to turn black on the ends and full of grubs and nary a word spoke of it. Nothing wrong with that wood apparently. ::) The marketing boards at times saved a lot of loggers because wood often times was not paid for for months and one particular mill was famous for being $2-3 M in arrears for wood payments to the board. The board also absorbed a lot of mill bankruptcies, the logger got paid, but the board didn't. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

GATreeGrower


Hans1

This is a great topic and there is no better place to learn than this site. I'm a rookie in the knowledge forestry and markets in your area. I have bought owned and sold many rural property's over the years here in iowa. From an investment stand point the money made on land is most often made in the purchase price. I would recommend educating yourself on land sales in your area. This can be done by research at court house to see what tracts are selling for and attending land auctions. When you enter the market as a buyer be ready with your financing in place an offer not contingent on finance will often out bid a higher offer that is dependent on finance. Some other avenues to generate revenue would be to enroll for cost share at the state and fed levels for tsi and habitat improvement. Patience is your best alley in shopping for land.
Good luck

mesquite buckeye

Welcome to the forum, Hans1 ;D

Good points. 4th rule of real estate. Money is made when buying, not selling.

Rule 1 of real estate: location

Rule 2 of real estate: location

Rule 3 of real estate: location


Rules of timberland ownership

Rule 1: site index

Rule 2: quality of existing stand

Rule 3: proximity to markets

Rule 4: species value and relative amounts of each

Rule 5: appropriate thinning and pruning of most valuable trees

Rule 6: patience of Job (Old Testament)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

cutter88

Quote from: CX3 on January 25, 2011, 09:29:56 PM
Well thanks.  In all reality, awesome would be a 450 Timberjack painted cherry red with flames, a new peterbilt with straight pipes, walnut logs so big it takes half the spool to choke them up, and a dallas cowboys cheerleader bringing water to me :D


lol couldn't have said that better my self
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

GATreeGrower

Mesquite that was perfect but I'd add a #7...amount of unwanted vines and woody stems to be controlled  :D

mesquite buckeye

At least keeping them from damaging the trees. First I was at war, with some grapevines with 8" trunks covering an acre of land and killing mature timber. Now that they are more under control, I can tolerate them to some extent as long as they stay out of the crowns of crop trees. Sometimes I will let them take out a defective tree. Then I drop the tree and down comes the vine.

Also, Virginia creeper rarely gets big enough to overtop the canopy, and may serve to help cool the trunk and help prevent sunscald. Poison ivy I like less..... >:(

Anyway, with some slight reservation,  good rule # 7. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

SwampDonkey

Another reason to stay north. We do have wild native grape up here, but not much bigger in diameter than a black berry cane. They usually only climb shrub bushes. Although on one section of highway along the river, they are covering the road. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

GATreeGrower

Mesquite here VA creeper is bad, gets in the tops, Ive seen it kill mature pines of ours.  Probably because we get more rainfall

GATreeGrower

Muscadine vines are bad in my part and of course wisteria

SwampDonkey

It's an escapee from back yard gardens here. But our forests here, knock it back. It will mostly thrive on shrubs, bushes and river front trees, not much success in the big woods. I have some in the yard. I just snip it at the base, like hitting the reset button. I do it because one is on an electric pole and I don't want it in the wires. A couple trees in the yard have it survive around the stump and up 5 feet or so, but it doesn't get anywhere. Sugar maple and spruce will pretty much put it in it's place. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

1woodguy

 Good topic!
   If I owned the land with trees don't think I would sell logs I would want to use the lumber
   I talked to two guys  (brothers) about some property they had just bought last fall and planning on clear enough to put afew mobile homes on divide into 1to2 1/2 acres with septic then resell
  It was across the highway from a place of mine.
     It was mostly ERC and oaks
     They own several small mobile parks and a lot of the mobile homes they fix if necessary then they sell to folks in the parks
their thinking was cut up the ERC for decks and steps ,build storage with all the FREE WOOD and sell the extra for big Bucks!
  One wanted to get a mill other didn't so
   They cut and hauled logs several times  to a sawmill
ended up with Lumber to use   
Decided it was not worth it,and land was not worth thinning and where you have to thin it's quicker and easier to pile and burn   logging is hard
Lots of easier ways to make a buck
   And so it's for sale
I still think logging and sawing to lumber on this place is worth thinking about if you have the cash

   So much depends  on what you want to do  I couldn't do just logs or sawmill

Some places you could buy a property thin it out some and make some of your payments

  In my case. Near two lakes  I think about thin it out along road cut what I wanted then
dividing part of land adding septic tanks maybe add mobiles if purchased right
(Repos bid on quantity of eight or more at a time)

And keep the rest of the land depending on total costs including carry and hold
  I could think of tons to do with lumber
Problem is finding the time  and the fact that I can usually make more money doing other things

 
 
     


Experience is a rough teacher first you get the test later comes the lesson!

SwampDonkey

Well one thing to keep in mind is the scale of things. It will not pay to go out and buy $100,000 of machinery and saw mill to thin $15,000 of wood out. It would not pay to buy a $25,000 mill to cut $8000 of lumber and not use it as a sawmill business. Plus when your considering all this work and you have a day job, when is it going to get done?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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