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Should I do It?

Started by AndyC, January 23, 2011, 05:17:07 PM

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AndyC

Hi guys, I've been on the forum for a while but mostly in the chain saw area.  The short – kinda long - story is after years of wishing I had a mill – I may be able to justify it in my head but give me your opinions and input. 

I am a woodworker more than sawyer or logger (semi-novice in all areas though) but can fell and forward logs.  I have felled and forwarded (80) saw logs - over 5000 bd/ft of tough windfall cherry, white oak, ash and maple in the past and had all of it sawn 4/4+ at a local bandmill with an LT40.  That cost was about $1600 for sawyer/$200 log truck/$1400 for stumpage payment and $400 for the roofing for drying back 6 years ago.  I sticked and stacked it (what you see in the picture) over the summer and it dried really well. That was then dead stacked in the workshop for use.  I am now using that wood to make cabinets for my current house and other smaller projects plus will soon make kitchen cabinets for a future house so I will probably be out of lumber in the next 2 years and I don't like that idea. 

SO..... given I can get my hands on enough standing hardwood trees (usually 12"-26" dbh) pretty much anytime relatively inexpensively , and I can get them into saw logs and kind of forward them with others assistance I run into the dilemma of milling costs vs buying a mill.  At 39 years old and considering I would have pretty much came close to break even with a 4-5K dollar mill for the last 5000 bd. ft. of lumber it makes me think it's a good idea and investment to buy a mill in that range of an ML26 or LT15.  My go to logging area is about 30 miles away and 100 acres of mixed hardwood.  I am not interested in revenue generation at this point as I have a good job but I also know that nothing is safe these days.  The idea of filling in the missing capability (milling) in my personal lumber and building supply chain is also very exciting.  We have a 32 x 80 shop for woodworking and has all equipment capable of making virtually anything out of lumber. 

So my question(s) are:
1.   Your confidence level that it makes sense for me to buy a mill in this range?
2.   If yes above, experiences on which mill to buy between the new Norwood ML26 or WM LT15 (assume stationary)
3.   On forwarding logs - I have some difficulty because I have a Yamaha Rhino for dragging, or a 3 cyl. Kubota tractor or Ford 8N and think a log arch would make it much easier coupled with the Rhino.   I like the look of the Norwood arch but any thoughts?   

Sorry for the long post but since this will take all spring and summer if I decide to do it I need to start planning cause if I have read so many posts of the saw shed never getting built and I WILL have a saw shed /drying shed/log deck built before the mill would arrive.  Having a 4-5k dollar piece of equipment out in the elements all year is not something I can handle as a long term investment.  Thanks in advanced for any advice – experiences.     I am sure I will have a million other questions if I can make this work but for now thats it.  -- Andy   







terrifictimbersllc

Andy, welcome to over here. You are one orderly guy, look at that lumber pile :o :o :o  (in addition to your post).   8) 8)   Don't see a projection though, of the additional amount of lumber you think you would  mill.  For the same amount again, it's a toss-up unless you want to be a sawmill owner and have the rewards and work from going down that path.  Also if you don't buy a mill this time  you're just that much farther behind on needing a better one.   :D :D 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

northwoods1

That lumber pile and drying shed arrangement does make it apparent that you are a perfectionist. I would give you this advice without needing to know any more particulars about your operation: buy the mill!  You won't regret it.  :) in fact you will find new ways to take advantage of it, things look and are a lot different when you have the capability to mill your own wood, and you will learn a lot more about wood from the milling process.

Brad_S.

Sometimes when you are that close to breakeven, just close your eyes and go for it. :D

Here is another use for a mill: it makes a wonderful jointer for straightening those boards with a lot of bow in them that take multiple passes on the standard jointer.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Planman1954

Hi Andy.

I'm 56 now, and I've done woodworking 30 years. I bought a used Norwood over a year ago now. I can tell you from my limited experience that I wish I had a mill 30 years ago! It is WONDERFUL having a source of lumber from logs.
My 2 cents to you would be to start with an inexpensive used mill. That way you can get your feet wet and not be out so much expense, and if you tire of the labor (It can be intense) you can sell it and not lose any money.
It seems that since I've had the mill, it has opened many doors to projects that I could not have afforded before. You will use the mill for years to build many things. It IS worth the investment. God bless.

Norwood Lumbermate 2000 / Solar Dry Kiln /1943 Ford 9n tractor

AndyC

Thanks - I believe based on my consumption I would like to process about 1000 bd ft from standing tree to full dry each year or maybe every other over the years. But this could be 2k to 3k one year and 0 the next year.  I should add more info too.  Woodworking is generational in my family through my Great Grandpa all the way down and one thing my Dad has said his Dad said is you can never have too much lumber but they never had a mill- just usually got trees and lumber from doing carpentry work as their trade.    I will never run out of things to use it for - just energy - from cabinets to furniture to sheds, gifts, friends,  etc.   Plus it is enabling to me - meaning I can think of things I wouln't even think of building unless I had a mill.  

As you say though there is a sense of completion about doing it from tree to whatever I want to build myself.  It's probably 60/40 in terms of realistic need vs want.    Thanks again for the welcome and input.  


ErikC

 Are you posting pictures like that one of your lumber shed to embarrass the rest of us or what? :-[ :) There seems no question in my mind you need a mill.
So lets move on to the lively topic of which brand is better. ;D
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

AndyC

Sorry I posted that last one and others had posted while I was typing... THANKS for the posts..... I am going to plan out and figure up the shed costs and get a little further down the road in planning because I really do believe it's a good idea - but don't go into much without a bit of calculation ( or a lot )   :D   

The stick/stacks were my first time with that much lumber..... I am sure they won't look that good again..... although I hope  they do.  Thanks guys. 

redbeard

  Plus it is enabling to me - meaning I can think of things I wouln't even think of building unless I had a mill.  

Nice air drying stack Andy, When im milling logs half the time im building a project in my mind while im making lumber it dose open up a whole new world if your a woodworker.
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Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

thecfarm

You can also use it when you want too. Have one tree,you can saw it up than or maybe a small tree that no one else would bother with or one you thought would make some nice boards,but turned out to be all fire wood instead.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Bill Gaiche

AndyC , welcome to this side of the FF. You have a really good start with all your lumber. Good stacking technics and protection. I built my own BSM at 64. Use it just for my own little needs. Cost about 2k to build. Enjoyed the build and it makes you understand how one works when you have never had any experience with them. I have sawn quite a bit and most of the lumber is stickered and just setting in the back yard waiting for me to make something out of it. The mill is just setting outside and not costing me anything. If i never make a dime with it is just fine. I didnt build it for a money maker. It keeps me intrested in wood projects which keeps me busy in my own little world. I am so far not ever bored because there is something that someone needs sawn or built. I believe you will never be sorry to have your own mill. A small mill to start with and even used will tell you wheather to keep it or trade up to a larger one later. You can saw a lot with a small mill. Good luck and I can see you will soon have one in your back yard also. bg

rph816

Just do it!  We used to pay to have our logs milled, then we "borrowed" time on a friends mill, then we bought a Timberking 1220, then we sold that (for almost what we paid) and bought a used Timberking B-20.  Loved every minute.  I too am of the belief that you should buy a small, even used mill first.  With Timberking (and I hear woodmizer) the resale is amazing.  We just happened on a steal of a deal on the B-20 and haven't looked back.  We haven't sold a single stick of lumber off our mill and don't really plan to, but it has been a great investment and a lot of fun.  I say "we" as this has been a father/son undertaking and my dad and I have a ball.  The TK 1220 (or new 1400??) would be a great starter mill, I've also used the WM LT-15 and it also performed well.  There are a lot of great options out there. 

Ryan

bandmiller2

Andy,asking us if you should buy a mill is like asking a drunk if he needs a drink!!Life is short buy it you won't regret it.Consider it a hobby pet but don't be surprised if you turn a buck with it. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

AndyC

Thanks for the responses guys.  Really good information and much I hadn't thought of.  I will get a mill   8) but I am now working on figuring out how I want to position the saw and drying shed.  I attached what I currently have as an equipment shed (small equipment) and will basically attach the new saw shed to it but more open for air flow and it would be 16' x 32'.  If you guys could comment on anything you see to be problematic or could be oriented better that would be great.  I can get to the construction details later but orientation to wind and what all I need to account for in space would be welcome.  I need both airt drying space as well as dried lumber storage (dead stacked).  Thanks again for the input on my long term project.  Regards -- Andy   






WDH

With that small volume, and if you do not cut for others or to sell lumber, I would pay to have the logs sawn.  You will have to saw for 15 years or so at that volume just to break even if you buy a manual mill.  It will be sitting unused 99% of the time, making it a poor investment if I understand the information that you provided.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

AndyC

Good points – thanks WDH   :) .  I did the rough math and you're right based on what I think I would need to cut to have enough usable lumber.  When I look at it objectively by the numbers it would only break even if I basically saw about 8000 bd ft. or more. See below for estimations.  That may take a long time or maybe only a few years - not sure.  In general though – it's both an investment and a hobby so I can slide on the ROI with my wife by calling it a hobby   :D.  I would suspect once my friends know about it – I will make some pocket money for blades/fuel maintenance.       

Buying a Mill Scenario:Sawmill Cost, Accessories and consumables: ~ $5000 

Paying Sawyer Scenario (based on my example in 1st post):
Stumpage Fee per BF: .25 cents
Log Truck to Mill per BF: .05 cents
Sawyer Cost per BF: .32 cents
Total per BF for Rough sawn:  .62 cents per board foot (this will only go up)

In order to get a ROI for mill purchase I would need to saw approximately 8000 bd ft.  [$5000 / .62 per ft.]  If I buy one, I would not have to pay for stumpage or log truck charge because I would split the milled lumber with the land owner.  One idea I was thinking would be to have a temporary setup (1-2 months) for the mill during the summer on his property and then move it back to my fixed shed once a large number of trees are milled.  I also have mixed hardwoods on my 5 acres to mill as well but not nearly as many as my buddy.  Or I could just bring half a dozen logs down to my shed at a time and mill them when I wanted. 

There are a number of things that are hard to quantify in $ return that I hadn't thought of until you guys posted some good points and I put myself in the mindset of what would I do if I had a mill.  These are the points that make an ify decision possible in my mind and worth the risk.       

1. Flexibility in lumber dimensions based on what I see from each log and what I need for a specific project coming up the following year(s).   
2. Reduced handling – I would take the milled lumber off the saw and be able to stick stack it sorted by species and length almost immediately.
3. Fixing bowed lumber (it takes me on avg. 3 minutes to straight line rip each bowed board using the table saw and a straight board clamped to the bowed board – much faster than many passes through joiner.  Wish I had a SLR saw   - but I can't justify even in my wildest dreams - YET.     
4. No more "nice" saw logs in the firewood pile.  This is debatable because I could have just piled them up until I got a trailer load and then taken them to the mill but again it goes back to the increased handling vs rolling them onto a mill and just doing a couple in a weekend as I felled them.   
5. Lumber quality and satisfaction.  I can only blame myself for mis-cuts.
6. A value couldn't be placed on my retired Dad using the mill – lifelong carpenter.   
7. Strong resale value reduces financial risk if the dust bug won't bite me hard enough or something else happens and need to sell.
8. Education – useable skill – from the time I considered this I have been learning things that are useful.
9. Fun hobby that provides inexpensive lumber. 

I really appreciate everyone's input as it makes me think through everything in detail.   

Captain

I'm just going to pipe in and say that my sawmill is the single most rewarding thing that I have ever purchased.  Once you have it, so many things become possible.  With your related hobbies and interests, I would say do it.  Life is too short to not satisfy dreams and curiosities, especially when it makes sense to do so.

Captain

terrifictimbersllc

Andy, nobody that stacks lumber and plots like you do is going to regret getting a $5K sawmill.  The I in ROI is more than money, get on with it.   :D :D  Find out what's behind the door.  8) 8)  If you find out you've invested too much you can always start working your equipment to make it pay off.   :o :o  Don't ask me anything about this i'll deny it.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Bandmill Bandit

Sounds to me like you shoulda done it long a ago! ;D
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

ErikC

 How about you consider it this way-you are losing money the longer you wait.  ;D
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

WDH

I was trying to be logical, but scrap that!  Go ahead and get the DanG thing :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

AndyC

 :D  You guys are funny.  Thanks. 

I sketched this while I was drooling over a picture of it...  smiley_bounce
Have a good evening and I will be sure and post when I order it....pretty soon. 




dovetails

you need to raise the mill up a bit, or you'll have your first metal hit in just a min or two! lol
1984 wm lt30,ford 3000 w/frt lift,several chain saws, 1953 model 30 Vermeer stump grinder,full wood working shop, log home in the woods what more ya need?

Norm

I bought my sawmill thinking I'd make a go of it as a sawyer. Things didn't work out that way and other jobs took over but there's no way I'd ever sell it. I still mill quite a bit with it but mostly for myself and friends. As a woodworker (kinda) it makes working with big pieces so much easier than using the tablesaw or my shop bandsaw. Trees that would have been pushed up into a pile and burned get a new life as works of art. Nothing more satisfying than that.

Just Me

 Its interesting to have a front row seat to the male justification process at work from someone elses perspective.

I have this process down so well that it works on my wife. She actually told me to go buy another dirtbike the other day because I deserve it and need it for stress relief.

Thats good baby!

PS, anyone needs lessons, let me know......

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