Where are the Angels?

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I am not talking about those creatures of GOD like Michael or Gabe nor am I talking about that one on the Victoria's Secret commercials.  I am talking about these mythical beings called Angel Investors.
  I have heard rummors of such things that invest in companies and share not only their money, but wisdom and experiance.  So I went looking and could not find such beings.  While the internet promised to link me to such as I sought after, the search proved futile.   I think looking for a unicorn or buying a lottery ticket would be faster and more productive.  I did however uncover some sharks in angel suits and some very unscrupulous cons who promised to be angel investors.
  Now I am sure that out there somewhere some dear sweet soul felt pitty and helped some struggling entrepreneur and thus the term was coined "Angel Investor".  I know some people helped Sam Walton, Don Tyson and Forrest Wood make it through the hard times.  There are people who are well off who give away millions of dollars every year but do not take the time to pay it forward.  I am proud of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs because they give hope to us poor slobs still mucking it out in the ditches.  If I was Goldman Sachs or GE the GOV would have given me billions to bail me out.  But no! I am deemed unworthy of the brass ring. Yet I see I am in good company of the hords of failures who pave the way before me. 
  Some days I just feel like the horse with the carrot hanging just out of reach and thinking that if I keep walking I will get that carrot someday.  It is just the depression that comes along each day after about the eighth or tenth call when I have to turn down the job because I just can not get to it because I am to small or do not have the capital to take advantage of the offer.  I do what I can and wait for them to come and pick it up so I can start again.  Just as I get to the ball to kick it, Lucy jerks it away and I land flat on my back, again.  But what hope is there for some poor white southern trash male child to ever make it to the big time.  For I was never promised another day much less another breath so why should I seek for more then what I am?  It seems that while honesty may help get you into heaven it will kill you in business and politics.
  So if you are standing there looking at the carrot and you hear the phrase "Angel Investor" the theme from "Jaws" should start playing in the background and beware of the shark's fin between the angel's wings.  And should you have an angel in your pocket and are done with it I would be interested in borrowing them for a spell.  May the Grace of GOD be with you and yours and I guess I will see my angel on the other side of the pearly gates.

[jim king]

I had a guardian angel at one time, but my little devil got him drunk, tattooed, and left him penniless at a strip club. I have not had another angel assigned to me yet.

[DanG]

Keep following that carrot, Arkey.  By and by there will be a bush beside the road that you might be able to snag it on and get a bite of it.

How about putting Wanda back on the road?  What about doing a little logging yourself to get the logs you can't afford to buy?  Cut on shares if you have to, anything to survive. ;)

[Autocar]

Arkansawer just get up and start again , there was a logging show years ago I believe the name of it was Never Give A Inch ya just have to hang in there and keep climbing the hill you work hard enough your get to the top . When I was younger I looked at the bigger operators and said to myself I want to go that far. But I worked hard ,worked with old equipment and tried to be fair to everyone I did business with. Now I am past sixty, I never did become that big operator but realize theres a whole lot more to life then being the top dog. I get phone calls about timber and there remark they were told I did a good job and was fair with the payment. To me I did ok ,hang in there your your make   ;) At least when you look at yourself in the mirrow your feel good about the guy looking back at you

[Brad_S.]

I feel your pain Arky and especially relate to the carrot on the stick analogy. I followed that sawmill carrot for 16 years and all I have to show for it is some tired iron, a shattered marriage, a beat up body and basket full of broken dreams. My angel showed up just as I was going under for the third time.....not with investment money but with an opportunity that allowed me to finally...reluctantly...give up my chase for that carrot.
Finally letting that carrot go was hard but my stress level is way down. My debt has gone from a 6 figure number to nearly nothing. I gave up a lot but life is much easier now.
You sound as if you are approaching that crossroad I was at earlier. I wish you well in your ultimate decision.

[Ironwood]

Brad, you should explain your picture, looks like your in the rotor of a 300' windmill with blades on each side and a nice harness. ? Is this part of your angel? 

Ironwood 

[red oaks lumber]

arkey,
the angels are in your pocket, it's just that the devilish angels are talking louder than the good angels.last year 2010 my additude was very poor at best, you know the kind every bird could poop on the lower lip cause i was pouting in my self pity. buisness sucks , the economy is poor, the gover't sucks ect. so on the new year i thought i will try to look at things with a posative mind set.
man how things can change quickly, the phone is ringing (customers not creditors) people are coming by the shop ordering product , life's looking up . the only thing changed from that friday to that monday was my additude.
   

[Ironwood]

Arky,

I think angels are out there but are looking into less "hands on businesses" where exponential returns are possible. This is unlikely in traditional businesses, and traditional business models. So that leaves us out.  : But they always want a piece. Call it the "cost of capital".

Ironwood

[jim king]

ARKANSAWYER :

Check this out.  This is what I am and it is no joke but a couple of pills a day makes you a different person.  I am not doctorb but you sound familiar to me.

One day my neighbor who is a doctor took me to the local crazy house and the doc looked at me and we talked for a while and he told me I was crazy and gave me some Lithium and life is much easier.

No smart remarks guys  8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

[DanG]

Arkey, maybe there are Angels out there, but just not the kind you're looking for.  The so-called Investor Angels are a lot like those lawyers who advertise on tv.  They promise you that they will stand behind you and fight for you, but all they want is a big chunk of your settlement for doing nothing but selling you down the river.

The reason I say there may be Angels of another sort?  I was offline for a couple of hours and when I returned it only took me a few minutes to view everything that had been said on the Forum, so I took a look at Facebook.  One of my Nieces had just posted a little quote that may be meaningful:

"It's impossible." said pride.
"It's risky." said experience.
"It's pointless." said reason.
"Give it a try." whispered the heart.

[jim king]

"It's impossible." said pride.
"It's risky." said experience.
"It's pointless." said reason.
"Give it a try." whispered the heart

The only thing she forgot  "I got it done"

Thats good

[Tom]

Arky is cool.  He is balancing a poor economy against an intimidated bank.  He has log suppliers who are in the same fix as he is and all of them are picking up crumbs to make it to a better day.

He managed to put together a bunch of stationary equipment on a new piece of land and has had the banks behind him, though he is towing them rather than them pushing.  Things are rough all over, especially on the level at which he is operating.  I've got faith that he has the perseverance to pull the fat out of the fire.

Mark my words, If he makes summer, the banks will be trying to throw money at him and he'll be in a position to laugh. Arky stands a chance of being one of the big boys.

[Jeff]

Never Give A Inch

Don't use that one for an example, it don't end well at all. The original name was "Sometimes a great notion" and it was from the book of the same name by Ken Kesey

[DonT]

I was given some advice when i was about 10 by an old horse logger,it related to driving a snowmobile but it applies to most things in life"never say whoa in a bad spot" and from me,keep beliving,the power of positive thinking can take you a long way.

[Ron Wenrich]

I worked for a local medium sized sawmill back in the early '70s that had similar problems.  They never quite had enough money, and they didn't pay the highest wage.  But, everyone worked hard.  The company was started by the owner's father, and had been a retail yard and a sawmill.  The father retired, and the sons took over.  Lots of infighting lead to a disjointed management style.  Eventually they all split up, and one guy bought out everyone else.

Their turnaround came from a rather unexpected source.  It didn't come from pumping more money into the operations.  It came from doing business in a different way.  The man who did that was an older lumberman from a different state.  He was a lumber buyer and he stopped by to buy some lumber.  But, what he found is that the operation was disorganized. 

This guy enters the operation as a consultant.  He worked strictly on commission.  He marketed all the lumber, he did the lumber inspection, the grade sorts, and all things needed to run the sales end of things.  When the sales came into line, then the rest of the operation started to turn around.  They originally had their own logging crew, but they eventually split that off to where they bought standing timber and had loggers subcontracted to do the logging.  They bought local logs.  They subcontracted all the trucking.  Their business came down to being only sawmilling.

When they did away with all those satellite operations, they could concentrate on what they did the best.  Eventually, they dumped the consultant.  It was about a 15 year relationship.  Then they went on a big spending spree.  They became the biggest hardwood mill east of the Mississippi.  The recent recession has made them reorganize, and pare down the size of operation.  But, they have come through this onto the other side without folding like so many other mills have done.  Debt was one of their problems, since they had to pay the banker every month.

My point is, you might have to look for your angels in something other than a cash situation.  They take all types of forms.  You just have to be smart enough to recognize them when they come along. 

[Busy Beaver Lumber]

Arky

Sometimes an angel comes in the form of someone that keeps you from borrowing money rather than one that offers to lend you money or invest in your business.

Case in point, when I met my wife 10 years ago, she was dirt poor and trying to raise 4 girls all on her own. Her x husband was in jail and never paid a cent in child support and they had no medical insurance on either of them or the kids due to him never being able to hold a job. When we were dating, I can remember one night when I went to call on her and she was sitting on the floor wrapping pennies so she could go and buy a $7 prescription for her youngest daughter needed for asthma. I on the other hand was in decent financial condition with excellent credit and and zero debt. At age 38 I already had a house valued at over $300,000 paid off free and clear and some money in the bank for a rainy day. I had divorced several years earlier when my x wife became physically abusive towards our daughter and I had full custody of our 12 year old daughter and was raising her on my own.

Well once we got married, things improved immediately for her and her 4 kids. For the first time in her life, she did not have to scrimp and save just to get buy and the kids each got their own bedrooms for the first times in their lives. She no longer had to count pennies as I had a good steady job that I have been at for the last 24 years and  where I make decent money and have good benefits. Only one thing was missing from her life and that was that she wanted to work and help me support our new family

My immediate reaction was to offer to borrow money from the bank and get her set up in her own business. We had talked about opening an embroidery and sign shop and I figured it would take about $50,000 to do it right. I was all ready to sign for a loan and had little doubt that she would do well at it since she is very motivated and ambitious. But when I told her I wanted totake a loan to get her going, she got hysterical and pleaded with me not to do it, right down to begging and shedding tears. At first I had trouble understanding her reaction, but then she explained how she loved our life and our house and that she would go to pieces if anything happened to either of them. To her, it was not worth the risk just to start a new business.

She liked the idea of having her own business, but not the risk of owing the bank money and having monthly payment to cover. She instead asked if we could both just save up and do it in cash, which is exactly what we did. She took a full time job and I continued to work my current job and take any and all overtime we both could get. In less than a year, we had the cash in hand to start the business. In 2001, we bought the embroidery and vinyl cutting machines and are still in business doing that to this day. We operate those two businesses right from our own house.

When the economy was in better shape, we had some killer months of income. When it took a dive a few years ago, we had some pretty lean ones, but we never had to worry about loosing money of stress over payments to the bank or equipment payments because we owned everything free and clear and had virtually no overhead since we worked the business from home

Four years ago when I wanted to get into the sawmill and firewood bundling business, I once again told her I wanted to borrow $70,000 to buy a building that I had my eyes on, a new woodmizer sawmill, truck, trailer, and other assorted equipment. Once again she begged me not to and said "I do not care what business you want to start, and I have all the faith in the world in you, but all I ask is that you do it in cash". So rather than rush out and take the $70,000 loan, I did it her way and saved up the cash over 2 years. I then bought everything I wanted with cash and started the sawmill business. Actually patience wound up to be a virtue as I found a much better deal on another building which I did buy, got a fantastic deal on a used woodmizer sawmill, which I resold at a good enough profit that is almost totally covered the cost of my brand new LT-10, and along the way found some excellent deals on the truck and other equipment I wanted. By being patient an listening to her, I got everthing I wanted for about $45,000 instead of $70,000 and I don't have any payments to make. My total yearly overhead costs to run the business are less than $1000, which includes utilities, taxes, and insurance.

We have been banking a good percentage of the profits from the business and the next time we want to expand or venture into something new, we already have the money on the side to do so.

The whole point of this long winded story is that sometimes it is better to grow slowly or be a bit patient and use your on capital than it is to go to the bank and owe them for the next 20 years, not to mention what you wind up paying in interest. For us, at least, this strategy has paid off very well and it is a lot easier to sleep at night knowing that you own everthing free and clear and nobody can come and repo it if you have a few bad months.

In my case, the angel came in the form of my wife and her fear of ever being broke again, and I thank God for sending me this cautious Angel.

[Larry]

Where are the Angels?

Gravity Ventures Arkansas

Northwest Arkansas Entrepreneurial Alliance

Innovate Arkansas

You try any of these?

Our local newspaper must be the best in the country as business stories range from total failures to business superstars...and we have plenty of both.  Pretty inspirational stuff...wish I had a couple of do-overs.

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Larry they are not Angel Investors they are Venture Capitalist.  There is a differance.  Most of these companies are the reason I started this thread.  This thread is not a "Whoa is me" but is like the purpose of the FF to inform and educate the members and guest.  These groups are not interested in building a company or improving our economy.  They are just as greedy as any Wall Street Investment firm.(which by the way does not give a DanG #&$^@ about you our your future,  For if any Wall Street firm cared about you the only time they would make any money would be when you made money so you would never never lose money)
  "Whoa is me" as for I may in the next month or so loose all that I have tried to build.  That is OK! and I am fine.  For my Pa always told me that when you think that things are going badly, you look around and someone else will be worst off then you.  If you look around and no one is worst off then you then you have hit rock bottom and there is no better place to build a foundation and start back up.
  If it was for the fact that there were no logs to be had or no one wanting to buy lumber it would be a different matter all together.  And while some say grow slow and you will get there do not understand the lumber business very well.  For like somethings this business grows exponentially in cost, production and overhead.  As you grow your cost of production drops while your cost of operation may be rising.
  Now I started with a mill and hit the road.  I was invested with $25,000 in debt and worked very hard and by the end of the year made a $1,000 profit.  Not bad and the next year I cleared about $5,000  in profit and it stayed that way for 5 more years.  So all I would have to do is work for about 300 more years and save my money and I would then have enough to get to where I need to be.  Maybe if I invested well it would only take me 250 years to save up the money.  If you are not starting to see a problem then you should as I am almost 50 now.
  5 years ago I bought the land and moved onto it.  By the end of the year I was $129,000 in debt and had sales of $389,000.00.  I reinvested my profit and grew more the next year.  When the economy dropped in early 2009 we pared back but was still making money.  In late 2009 they pulled my line of credit which I used to take advantage of oppertunities and sales flatlined.  In 2010 due to bad weather and economy we just hanged on.  With out the chance to take advantage of large orders we slip a little lower each month.  When you saw out a $3,000 order and have to wait a week to recover your money before you can start the next one you lose half of your production capicity each month.  When you grow you do not grow in small steps after a while.  I once got by with one tt load of logs a month, then soon it was one a day and there for a while we were doing two tt loads a day.  When I was doing just one a month I was doing little orders and could only sell what I had.  When I was doing one a day I filled large and small orders all at the same time and the profit margin was alot better because I did not have to sit on the side wood of one order waiting for it to sale.  But when you do a tt load of logs a day that means you need to have a two week supply on hand in case of bad weather or other things out of your control.  So I went from having $1,500 worth of logs on hand to having between $15,000 to $20,000 on hand.  So maybe you are starting to see how the exponential effect starts kicking in.  With this you need to be able to move the wood, slabs and waste as well as pay for the increase cost of operation.
  No one wants to invest in something like farming or sawmilling because the return is low and slow.  Yet this very fact is going to be the reason our economy goes under.  Sure I can go to work for International Paper or some other Wall Street traded corperation but they are not going to put a plant in Flippin Arkansas.  If we do not start investing in Main Street there will not be one before long.  We can not all work for the GOV and buy everything made in China.
  Like Job in the Bible I do not know what great sin I have commited to deserve this punishment, for I would repent.  I do not know why bad things happen to good people and why the unjust profit so.  I just know that it rains on the just and unjust the same and all is the will of the Potter.  He cast the pots and does with them as he pleases.  I know not way I have drawn this lot and like it not a bit.  Yet all I know is the sun rose in the east this morning behind the clouds and should I live so long it will sit in the west when it's journey is done this day.  My task is not to be a sawyer but a sower of seeds.  I have sown seeds this week and done good deeds.  Be careful of what you pray for and remember this, your next breath may be your last but, holding this one will not make your life last longer. 

[Weekend_Sawyer]

Arky, I have no advice. I just want you to know that I am pulling for you and hope you win this one.

Good luck
Jon

[old joe]

Son , None of -us -I guess are Angels.  That said,  we're all pulling for you, and praying if we do that.  Do what you can, and take advantage of opportunities you can handle.
Best luck.

Joe

[thecfarm]

Takes money,to make money.No advice from my corner,but will pray an Angel will come your way to see you through the bad times.

[Roxie]

I feel your pain, and I understand completely.  At 58, the company I worked for just closed the doors, in the worst economic time that I have lived through, and believe me I've been dirt poor before.  But I worked hard to have the modest life that I had, and usually that meant having at least two and often three jobs.  I can't even find one now, and I find myself begging for employment at 1/3 of what I was making when I lived modestly. 

You mentioned the Book of Job from the Old Testament.  Remember that after he was tested, God increased what he had lost twelve fold.  I don't ask twelve fold, but it sure would be a blessing to return to average. 

This must be how that 'deer in the headlights' feels.  Do I move forward?  Go back?  Stand still?  For anyone thinking, "move forward" I ask, how many times has that deer walked right into tragedy? 

There are some very comforting words here for you Arky, and if you don't mind sharing them, I'm gonna hold some to my heart.  Just like you, I don't want sympathy, pity or advice.  It's just telling it how it is to those who refuse to listen and understand that very hard working parts of this great Nation are slipping under.  We allowed and most encouraged the Government to publicly support the loss of Wall Street, while allowing them to keep the profits private.  What's trickling down to the little guy, isn't money.

 

[BCtimber]

Well I can tell you things are no different in Canada.  I live in a small interior town that is basically ruled by the large mills that exist here.  The timber supply here is probably 95% controlled by the two huge mills in the town.  This is all related to the softwood lumber disagreements that we are all aware of.  Basically the the huge companies controll the trees on all "public"  lands.  All I can access -at great expense and red tape- is some crappy dead pine trees.   What this means here is over the last 5 years or so small operators have not been able to make much money to be ready for the lean times.  When the housing market dropped out pretty much all opportunities disappeared and we have had to scramble.  Now I am used to adversity in the life I have chosen as I have been broke and had to rebuild and repay debts in a big way three times now but the difference is there is not much to look forward to for the next few years.   The one good thing is the with the dead pine trees deteriorating fast our main mill that owns everything will hopefully shut down in the next few years and maybe small operators will find a place again.  I tell you Canada is a great place in a lot of ways but encouraging small business is not one of them.

[Autocar]

BCTimber I don't think there real friendly with the small guy in the states eather

[BCtimber]

Yes I am sure you are right about that.  Just wanted to vent.