OWB wood consumption

[pulse]

OK previous post did not tell me much so I will try another one. I know there are so many variables when doing comparisions but bare with me. With CB giving $3000 trade in credits and possibly other manufactors doing similar in the near future, I would really like to know the wood savings, and if it would be a good move for me. I will try to standardize as much as possible. Please list house size and age, insulation and windows, additional heating draws ie garage, dhw. Your geographical area also please.

I will start: My house 2800 sq ft living space, with full unfinished, basement. Half of the house built in the '20s but updated, other half 3 year old addition, with spray foam in the walls, and at least r60 in the attic. We have ALOT of windows (new pella's) most are 3'x5' I would guess at least 30% wall space is windows. House kept at 73 when we are here, 69 when we are not, probably about 50/50 of the time. DHW for 3. 600 sq ft garage kept at 50 except when I am working in it then bump to 65. (not often)

I live in SW lower Michigan average winter temps in the teens and 20's. I live close enough to Lake Michigan we don't see the sun very often in winter. My heating season goes from mid October to mid April.

My boiler is a hawken he1000. 150 gal water capacity, firebox just under 4 ft long. Last year I went thru 8 full cord, this year the way Dec, and Jan have been it looks like it will be at least 10. With these Jan temps I fill it 2/3 full at 5:00 pm then usually throw a couple logs in around 9:00 am the next day, this will carry it till 5.

I don't know what is driving my interest so much to these new boilers, I am quite happy with mine. It works well, it is easy to operate, there is very little smoke, the wood is easy to process (very little splitting, 30" long pieces)

I just have this problem, if I know there is something better out there, I want to know about it and look into it for the future. What I don't want to do is spend another $5000.00 and find out real world wood savings is only 10%-15%. If it really is 40% or greater now you have my interest.   

[doctorb]

First,I agree with beenthere  Comparisons of this type can lead to false conclusions as the variables are so many.  Take my situation....

5000 square foot added on and added on farmhouse.  2 basements with 2 furnaces and 2 different heating systems and hot water.  E-2300 with 1 1/4 inch thermopex 300 feet away.  One line run underground into one basement and then split to serve the second basement.  Heat at 70 on programable thermostats when we are here, 68 when we're not, 66 at night for sleep.  This is an inefficient system.  It's like heating 2 separate houses that happened to be joined along one wall.

I did not expect to get away with low wood consumption with this house.  The reason I went to the OWB was the cost of the oil it took to heat it- approximately $5500 on a regular winter.  My wood consumption is between 1.5 and 2 cords per month on the "fringe" heating months ( November, April ) and 2.5 - 3 cords per month when it's real cold.  So it takes me about 15 cords to heat for 6 months.  I know that figure scares some of you, but, if you figure $200/cord, I'm still saving about $2500 minimum per year.  Some of my wood is free so my costs are not unreasonable.  Wait 'till heating oil is above $4.00/gal  ( It might be now, I haven't looked ), and the savings will be that much greater.  I don't think that, given the size and inefficiency of my situation, that I can do a lot better.  And yes, I know how to optimize the running of the stove as it's my second year at this.  Looked into geothermal - $55k - $60k. I have no regrets making the switch.  I get a little exercise.  I am protected against the oil price menace.  The house is warmer than it used to be as we attempted to be frugal with the oil.  I have every belief that If I were heating just one house instead of two that my consumption of wood would be significantly less.

[karlk]

Im heating 2700 sqft house and 700sqft garage with a portage & main optimizer, my house is in Pa. 10 yr old construction with 2x6 walls and fiberglass insulation attic is r30 .I have baseboard hot water. I keep the house and garage at 72 degrees .It looks like I will use 7 1\2- 8 cord from oct to april . Last year I had an indoor gasser with 500 gallon storage tank and I used 6 cord for the same time but I think its colder this year. Hope this helps.

[thecfarm]

karlk,welcome to the forum.

Some things I would think about before switching to an "E" is what is quality of wood do you burn? I have a Heatmor and I burn ALOT of dead,punky wood in it. I have no wood shed and just about cut it as I need it. Those E's are real fussy with what you burn and how dry and even how you put it into the furnace,from what I read on here.But the time maintaining it,is easier than cutting wood.I doubt you will have the easy to operate,the wood is easy to process mode when you get an E.Not down grading the E a bit,but I would hate to play with something and still have to wonder when I go check it,if the fire is still going. I can throw a 54 inch stick in mine and I may be fooling myself on the amount I burn,but I like the non complex controls and just throw the wood it and it will burn it idea of it. I have never thought about replacing mine,even if I could save a couple cord a year.

[darnet]

I have a 1853 house that is not insulated very well in the walls but r-38 in the attic. The windows are single pane with storms so not very good. It is 5000 s/f and a garage that is a 1000 s/f unisulated but will be this summer. It cost me 6000$ to heat with oil fired steam in 2009 when oil was at 2.49$. Now with the e-2300 I burn 12 to 15 full cords at 1100-1400 dollars a year. I live in upstate NY next to the canada border. Yes the E can be allittle fussy but with epa and the town rules I played it safe with the E and spent the extra for this owb.
  Scott

[pulse]

Cool keep the posts coming! I love reading about everyones setup. Man some of you guys are heating some HUGE spaces with these things. Doesn't it feel good to turn the thermostat up and not feel guilty. 

[Dean186]

I replaced 1400 gallons of propane with 9 cords of pine & fir mix using an E-Classic 1400.

The numbers below are in 2010 dollars at local prices.

    Propane Cost:  $2,590.00 = 1400 gallons times 1.85 per gallon

    Wood Cost:     $1,440.00  =  9 cords of pine times $160 per cord (if purchased)

We currently do not purchase firewood.  I cut, block, split, and stack all of my own wood from our property, so our out of pocket cost is almost zero.  

Our current savings are about $2,500 per year, more when propane prices increase.

Added:

This year is looking more like 8 cords of pine/fir which is equivalent to about 5 cords of oak.

And as others have noted - we also keep our house warmer now that we use wood.

[ken999]

Last year I burned two chord a month from Dec. to Feb., then 1 chord each for March and April. I'm heating 1800 sq. ft. of living space on two floors to 73 and keeping the basement in the 60's. We use lot's of DHW too.

Prior to the 2300 we burned 200+ gal of oil in the winter and burned 4-5 chord in a new Pacific Energy 90k firplace insert.

Hands down we are making life easier while at the same time keeping much warmer.

[albirk]

i burn about 1 1/2 cords a month (CB Classic 5648) 2500sq feet house plus 3 car garage all set at 72 plus 2 coils plus 2 cold waters heaters in basement 1 coil in garage (1 1/2 cordes takes the place of $700 a month gas bill 8 years ago)

[woodmills1]

I throw about 30 cord of mostly pine into my free heat machine

but it is all just labor

all my wood is free

I spent 3400 green bucks 7 years ago to be chilly
now it is

toasy and warm


no oil going into 7 years now

[hockeyguy]

We used to average 1000 gallons of heating oil for our 2200 sq. foot reasonably well insulated house. We were always chilly and never dared to put the t-stats above 67 and used electric hot water.

I figure that I'll end up using around 9 cord this winter. We keep the t-stats around 69, heat the basement at 67(toasty warm floors) and get our hot water(unlimited) form the e classic.

I believe my wood consumption will go down next year as I got a late start with my wood this year and some of it is marginally seasoned. Next years wood has been cut and split  since fall of 2010 and should burn better.

Bottom line: with oil averaging $3.15 around here for most of the winter and the $50 a month I'm saving on electric hw I should see a savings of about $3450.00

[Eljay]

I am new to this part of the Forestry Forum but not new to wood burning. I have a 4000 sq ft house with four heating zones on three floors. I burn about 8-10 cords of hardwood here in the western part of NJ. The house was built in the 1800's but redone to modern standards with most of the square footage being an addition.
My current OWB is a conventional 5 year old Woodmaster4400. I have been reading and hearing about the gasification stoves for the last year or two. My only issue with my unit is with smoking on start up when the wood has been smoldering for any length of time. Since the house is in the middle of a 40 acre woodlot and in a rual area, the smoke is not an issue for neighbors. On the few occasions when the wind comes from the south east do we smell any smoke if the windows are open. The only reason I see to change to a gasification unit would be the smoke issue. While there may be some claims of burning less wood with these boilers, I take these claims with a least one grain of salt. After reading some of the issues with how fussy the gasification boilers are, I'll stay withwhat I have. Maybe when it's time for a newboiler,I'll re-evaluate.

[Tim Crowley]

I am heating a 5300 sq. ft. home in Central Vermont.  1860's farmhouse with some decent insulation but some insulation issues, as well.  Gets cold here.  23 below last night.  Anyway, last year (my first year with the eclassic 2300, I burned 14 cords.  This year, I expect I'll burn about 12 (but we'll see).  Our oil bill last year would have been $7,000.  (It was 9K the prior year when oil was out of control).  Last year my wood cost me about $1500 split (22 inches, chunky).  The savings has been a joy, really.  Freed up about $700/month for my family.  What's even better, we were waaaaarrrrmmmm!!!

[ral]

OK here goes, some facts and best estimates.

Nortwestern WI.
1994 yr., 3600 sqft house, main floor with walkout basement.
Maintain whole house 67-70F.,
2by6 walls but lots of windows.
900 sqft garage, 50F. most of the time, sometimes 65F., not lower.
2-40 gal. in series DHW heaters using side arms.

Used before approx. 1200-1400 gallons LP most years, close to zero now. Using eclassis 2300, in my second year, burning dry hardwoods, mostly white oak, some hickory, a little elm and red oak. Started unit late Oct. and through today (measured) have used 5 cords. Expect to use another 3 cords or a little more, fingers crossed. Once the temps creep up in April I will shut down

[Al_Smith]

5000 square foot added on and added on farmhouse.  2 basements with 2 furnaces and 2 different heating systems and hot water.      It's like heating 2 separate houses that happened to be joined along one wall.

 My wood consumption is between 1.5 and 2 cords per month on the "fringe" heating months ( November, April ) and 2.5 - 3 cords per month when it's real cold.  So it takes me about 15 cords to heat for 6 months.     Looked into geothermal - $55k - $60k. I have no regrets making the switch.    I have every belief that If I were heating just one house instead of two that my consumption of wood would be significantly less.

Considering the size and design of the large house ,15 cords is not bad at all .Old farm houses by themselves aren't the easiest structures to heat ,about like a barn .

Now that price quoted for a geothermal must obviously be at full retail highly marked up prices because even a duel range or mulitiple unit wouldn't normally be that expensive .Then again though prices do vary depending on location .It would be quite costly though if a bunch of new duct work were involved .Then too you would have to take into account a good source of water ,long loops,deep well loops or whatever .Something the size of that massive house would most likely take around a 10 ton unit or units depending .Those alone would probabley be 10 grand or higher full retail if not more .

[doctorb]

AL_Smith -

I got 2 estimates for the geothermal.  My house has existing added on AC, so the ducts are there.  I was told the air exchangers are large enough and of good quality.  The problem comes from a lack of upstairs access for the second floor heat / AC.  So they were talking a total of 3 units, one in each basement and one in the attic.  Threre was no way to run a large enough duct from either basement to the attic to avoid needing the upstairs unit.  These prices included 2 separate drilling sites for the ground well access.  The estimates were within $5000 of each other and the lowest was about $55K.

Several other points.  1)  You can not get hot water baseboard or radiator heat from GT.  I like hot water heat as opposed to warm air being blown around.  2.  Despite saving on the cost of oil, I can never recover the cost of GT installation, as I expect to be in my current house for about 10 years (How's that crystal ball working for you?)  You can get a domestic hot water boost, but still need other means of providing DHW.  3)  Getting the AC combined with heat is a plus - the obvious advantage to this system.  But my ductwork is set up to deliver air to the ceilings of the upstairs rooms.  That's great for AC, but not great for heat. 

In the end, as I already had existing AC installed, the outdoor furnace has worked out best, IMO.  The house and hot water are warmer (even my wife likes this device now), the oil bill is zero, and even though I burn more wood that I would like, I am satisfied with my decision.  GT was going to be way too expensive and would force me to live with some things that I would prefer to be without.

[Al_Smith]

Well yes installation does play a big factor no matter what the system is .My system which sets at the end of an L shaped house required some huge duct work of which I fabricated and installed myself as well as the rest of the system .Took me the best part of one summer though .

Hydronic with zones would certainly be an easier install than forced air  for sure .

[Randy88]

Pulse, first off I'd keep what you have and forget a new boiler, if your only going to gain a little, for the price to update wood boilers you might as well go buy the extra wood you'll still be money ahead in the long run and most of us need a little exercise in the winter anyhow by throwing wood in the furnace.   

[superwd6]

E-classic can be easier on wood but if your wood is wet-- you'll see the difference. Unless you're upsetting your neighbors with smoke I would leave it alone. I'm a furnace service man . Certain systems can save you a lot but in this case I don't think you'll save enough wood to do it. So long as your exsisting set up isn't bothering anyone with smoke, leaking or costing a lot of money in repairs leave it alone.  ;D. You can spend a lot to save very little. ;)

[petefrom bearswamp]

Hi all, interesting thread.
I am  in Central NYS 3 miles south of Skaneateles lake in the Finger Lakes region.
First off, I assume everyone is talking standard cords of wood 4x4x8 or 128 CuFt of wood and air.
I heat a 1600 sq ft basement to about 70 degrees and the 1600 sq ft upstairs to 72 to 73 degrees, my 784 sq ft garage to 55 degrees plus the domestic hot water to furnace jacket temp.
My furnace is a classic 4436 which I stoke twice daily usually with 10 to  pieces of 22" long wood, sometimes 15 depending on the expected outside temp and wind conditions, the pieces being relatively uniform in volume.
My location is fairly well sheltered from the wind.
All my wood comes from my 65 acre woodlot.
I burn from early to mid Oct to mid April, then use oil but not for DHW about 400 gal since 2005.
When I started 6 seasons ago, the draft was set by the factory to full open and i operated this way until 2008.
I noticed while sitting in my hot tub that flames shot 3 feet out of the stack which should have made me realize that i was wasting btu's to the outdoors. Fortunately my wife faces away from the furnace and didn't see this as my unit is only 8' from my garage.
I am guessing that I used about 9 to 10 cords of dry hardwood, 2 years drying, one outside, one under cover, Beech, Maple and Ash.
in the summer of 2008 On the suggestion of my wife's cousin I set the draft door as closed as the slots would permit.
I immediately noticed no flames and less wood consumed.
As of this date, I have used 5.48 cords of wood and the winter has been colder than normal.
For the past 2 seasons plus this one I have burned Ash exclusively due to the approach of the Emerald Ash borer.
Another thing I did at the recommendation of my dealer was purchase a 55 gal drum of antifreeze for $6.00 per gal.
Big mistake. It was, I found out too late, alcohol based and it all evaporated.
I am isolated, so smoke is not an issue regarding the neighbors.
I can count on one hand the number of times we have smelled smoke in our BR which we set at 55 degrees and always has an open window.
As a point of interest there are 2 other OWBs within a quarter mile of me.



.

[doctorb]

Nice post , Pete.  

Regarding antifreeze.....it is my understanding that antifreeze actually decreases the efficiency of heat transfer in hot water exchange systems.  Most manufacturers don't rec. putting a ton of it in, as the more you use, ther poorer the system works.  You may have been lucky to have all that alcohol drift away!  Doctorb

[forest]

I agree that this is an interesting thread. I use between eight to ten full chords to heat a two story 2800 sq foot house and a little green house from March until the end of may. My wood is usually cut in the spring, delivered in the fall, bucked the following spring and stored usually a further year in a wood shed with good air circulation on all four sides and with a vapour barrier on the ground under the wood. I use largely silver birch, with the odd bit of black ash, and poplar. I live in Northwestern part of Ontario just outside of Kenora. We usually have two months a pretty sever weather January, and February, when it can go down to -40. The heating season for the outside stove is somewhere from the middle of Sept. until we are past the threat of frost usually in may. I was using a regular Classic OWB until this January when it died after eighteen years of good service. I am looking at replacing it with an e-2400 next summer and am hopeful of saving a least a couple of cords to make up for the somewhat higher capital cost. The stove is located about 140 feet away from the house. This I am learning from another thread in this part of the FF can be quite a substantial loss of Btus. Since the lose of the OWB I have been heating the house with an Ashly Imperial downdraft wood stove which has struggled through some the cold winter weather this year, and makes me remember how nice it is to keep the wood out of the house. I have been using more wood than I would have expected, which makes me think that the stove is not as efficent as it might be with too much heat going up the chimney. J

[Bart May]

Pulse, The same thoughts have been goin thru my head, but run the numbers I agree with Rand88, save your money. Even if the gasifier is 40% more efficient (and I have my doubts there are), you can buy allot of wood with the difference. And with all the Eclassic issues, is there any wonder their offering a $3k rebate? I'll keep burning my cl6048 until it's worn out. Buying wood by the tractor trailer load is much cheaper too. Have a look at the Portage and Main Optimizer. When I eventually get a gasifier in the future, that or a garn look to be the best selections to me.