Northwoods ?

[treefarmer87]

is it tippy? i saw some decent sized cedars, did they give you any trouble? or did u hand fell those?

[SwampDonkey]

Wrong tab :

[Clark]

That is some nice cedar.  I hate to put you on the hot spot but are there any plans to get the cedar back in there?

I toured the Biewer mill several years ago.  If I recall correctly they cut about 600 cords/day into lumber.  Amazing place to see and tour.

My biggest head scratcher is what to do with the crooked small diameter logs that I can't get at least 6' boards out of...

I knew one guy who cut a lot of cedar and he would take it down to an inch or two.  The real small stuff he could sell in no time to places that made spindles and the such.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Anyone buying or using telephone poles from cedar out there? I see some cedar telephone poles in some remote areas here. They last for as long as treated ones. I've seen treated poles replaced twice here on the road and them old original cedar poles where in the ground over 35 years before they came with saws and cut them off.


Can you cut the sweep out for rails? We could always use it all as long as it was sound and large enough top. Cedar mills here were always a dime a dozen. Here today bust tomorrow. :D How about barrel staves from the sweep material? My father had some made 30 odd years ago at a local barrel shop and they held together well, never busted a one and they held 165 lbs of potatoes.

[banksiana]

Cedar like that would sell pretty quick here in MN.  I have custom log home builders contacting me quite a bit.  There is a cedar mill in Big Falls that is always full of wood.

[northwoods1]

That is some nice cedar.  I hate to put you on the hot spot but are there any plans to get the cedar back in there?

I am not a trained forester, but from what I have noticed when it comes to cedar regeneration is that the amount of deer browsing it is probably the most limiting factor to what prevents it from taking hold and coming back. Down in the farm country where I cut this job there is such a huge amount of food that is more preferred than cedar the browse factor is just not a problem, even though there are a lot of deer around. There are a lot of dairy farms and as a result a lot of alfalfa fields. When I cut this job it did not even bring any deer in, but you should have seen what the deer where doing to the surrounding alfalfa fields . Another thing I noticed about this particular job is the areas that had blown down. There was probably between 1-2 acres that had previously blown over and had begun to regenerate and had about 15-20 years of growth in the areas where the sunlight was able to penetrate to the forest floor.  It was about 50/50 cedar that was8-12' tall and the rest was 15'-20' black ash. I did also leave an uncut perimeter or smaller cedar around the main area of larger timber where the original path had begun to grow out. I know that getting this white cedar to regenerate can be a problem.

[SwampDonkey]

My experience withe cedar is pretty much what northwoods explains. Cedar puts out a lot of seed and it has to land in a spot on the ground where the  sun can warm the ground for good germination. Deer browse pressure is a major factor in survival in some places. Other areas they either have lots of food as suggested or there simply aren't many deer. I never seem to have trouble on my woodlot to get it to grow because there is lots of seed and no deer. But in southern NB they are having a harder time getting it to come back. I have thinned whole stands of new cedar with brush saw.

This is 40 acres of cedar we thinned. The lighter green away from the photo edges and fields. The NE was a wetland around an old beaver pond. The woodlot owner said his dad cut it 20 years before we thinned it. It is slow growing for sure. ;)

[barbender]

Deer browse our cedar so hard that the state has severely limited the stumpage available for sale, as they can't get it to grow back :( I think the Chippewa N.F. has quit selling it altogether.

[banksiana]

This can be seen all over the north now, especially up highway 6.  What I don't like about this is that the reserved cedar shades the ground out around it resulting in no regeneration of anything but sedges and grass. 

[g_man]

Nice work Northwoods. Great photos and thread, very informative.
I have a few cedar in an area with good regen potential. I guess they were left as seed trees, but the deer presure is to high and in the 11 years I have been here there is no cedar regen.

[Autocar]

Northwoods the Black ash you talked about dose the ash borer bother it like it dose the white ? Down here there only killing the white. Blue and Gray they don't seem to bother.

[northwoods1]

Northwoods the Black ash you talked about dose the ash borer bother it like it dose the white ? Down here there only killing the white. Blue and Gray they don't seem to bother.

I am not sure Autocar but I would venture to guess that the black ash will be affected along with the white if and when it does reach this area. Currently it has not even reached WI yet to my knowledge. I know that if it does and has the effect that it will destroy all the ash then there are going to be some very large areas that will be completely denuded of forest as there are a lot of large areas containing predominantly ash.

Swampdonkey, the cedar sure does grow slowly! I've noticed that when it begins growing the seedlings might only reach 1" in the first year. And it seems that it continues at a not much higher growth rate for several more years. It is amazing to count the growth rings on a mature tree they can be extremely small!

Barbender, I have cut a lot of Federal jobs and the one species that was always off limits was the white cedar. Probably more to do with protecting the watersheds, and for good reason. Most of the streams and rivers in the entire area drained by my part of the state need some serious help. They are only a shadow of what they were a century ago.

[Peter Drouin]

Northwood1 You say ceder needs some serious help.to protect the watershed? you sound like its bad over there. I know we all have to make a living, I cut trees all the time. but the cedar is slow to come back or not at all.should we keep cutting until theres no more shadow? dont get me wrong all trees we have here come back so fast its crazy. we have butternut and not to much a lot of people won't cut it down. and I will not cut it up,( only storm damage trees that would rot if left) I don't  know just my 2 cents

[SwampDonkey]

We cut butternut here, but maybe a bit less since it's at risk from cankers. But of the sites I know of that grew butternut and was harvested, there was always butternut regenerating. Butternut doesn't live real long like sugar maple, about 80 years and it's about it. The ridge out behind has it coming back where is was cut. Lots of pole sized trees. It's not in pure stands , maybe pockets, and not thick like aspen for sure, but it never was.

[northwoods1]

Northwood1 You say ceder needs some serious help.to protect the watershed? you sound like its bad over there. I know we all have to make a living, I cut trees all the time. but the cedar is slow to come back or not at all.should we keep cutting until theres no more shadow? dont get me wrong all trees we have here come back so fast its crazy. we have butternut and not to much a lot of people won't cut it down. and I will not cut it up,( only storm damage trees that would rot if left) I don't  know just my 2 cents

Peter, I know I am not to clear some of the time about what I am trying to write, maybe most of the time :D but what I was trying to say is that, for example the Forest Service never cuts any cedar here. Areas that contain cedar are not even on the forest management plan. Here, cedar grows almost exclusively on the wettest ground. These areas a lot of time are along streams, at the headwaters of watersheds or are areas that drain into them. These areas if they are growing cedar will hold the water back so it just doesn't simply run off when the snow melts or after a rainy season. This tends to keep the streams at a higher more consistent water temperature and flow. Most of us are familiar with the issues relating to protecting water sheds and wetlands in general. These areas of cedar and wetlands also tend to act as filters for the water that is coming from agricultural land. Protecting these wetlands is not only important for the health of the streams and rivers but it also helps keep the ground water table up and also the lake levels.
Forestry and proper harvesting of trees is nothing to be afraid of but it has to be done in a way that we can realize the effects we are having on the environment when we do it. There are a lot of other reasons to try and preserve the cedar besides just the watersheds. In the winter when we have a really severe one all the deer will yard up in these areas to be protected from the cold and because it is the only browse available. Those are just a couple examples of why it would not be good to keep cutting it when it is not regenerating on its own.
All in all though there is one heck of a lot of cedar around these parts it is not in any kind of danger of being lost as a species like the elm, ash or butternut. But we need a lot of it for the reasons I mentioned.

[Ron Scott]

On the east side of the Hiawatha National Forest back in in the 1960's when we had good cedar markets we would strip cut the cedar and then control burn the clear cut strips in the spring of the year to expose the mineral soil for cedar regeneration.

We would clear cut one strip 1 chain wide (66 feet) and then leave two. However, deer are are a serious detriment to regenerating cedar and not much is harvested these days in areas of high deer populations since it is almost impossible to regenerate cedar in such areas. It's regeneration is also very slow in coming.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The deer are the biggest problem with trying to get cedar to regenerate in this area. Cedar seems to sprout without much issue and grows decently until it is above the snow line in the winter then it gets browsed down. So we have plenty of cedar "shrubs" in the woods here. Deer don't seem to bother the cedar much except in the winter when that's all there is too eat. IME

[SwampDonkey]

What I don't like about this is that the reserved cedar shades the ground out around it resulting in no regeneration of anything but sedges and grass. 

That may be so in some instances, then maybe not. I had a logger call me up and ask if he could plant a cedar site with spruce seedlings. I said let's have a look at it. We drove to the site, the only access was an old railroad bed. We arrived at the site and he said, nothing coming. I said let's go for a walk and have a look. We walked through it and just about everywhere you stepped was spruce and cedar so thick you couldn't count it. All under 6", but a carpet of trees. I guess we won't need any trees. Nope. Different view when it's not out the window. ;) :D